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Child Item

Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

[Deleted User]

Ok phase one of the digital switchover of the main tx Presely used in south east ireland for UK analogue reception has completed.

What has happened ?

BBC 2 analogue is gone.
ITV one Wales analogue has moved to the BBC 2 frequency.

The New high power BBC A mux [with BBC1 ,2 and 3 cbeebies etc] is broadcasting at 20kw erp instead of the previous 1.5kw.

Is reception possible in the south east and will it be reliable?

So far the answer seems to be yes.

On september 16th all analogue from presely will be switched off and channels like ITV one and ch4 and five will be on 20kw muxes and should also be as reliable as the new BBC one mux is now.

Viewers will need to retune their idtv's once again on september 16th to continue to receive the new higher power digital service.

A lot of viewers in co wicklow use a relay Arfon for their UK analogue reception.
This is used for example in wicklow town,much but not all of Arklow and greystones and areas inbetween.
If you still have BBC 2,you are on arfon.
arfon is not changing untill october.
It is only going to be one tenth of the power of presely so it's unclear that it will be as useable.
Some viewers may have the option of switching their aerials from arfon to presely-especially in the arklow area.

To the best of my knowledge,people in Rathdrum are using presely and inland in places like Aughrim and Tinahely also.
My rule of thumb as to whether reliable digital reception will be available to those areas and to those on arfon is pretty much wait and see at this time.
If you usually have fair to good analogue reception,then it is fairly likely that you will have consistent good digital reception.
I'm basing that on the fact that it seems that the new high power digital transmissions from presely remained stable and strong the other day when the analogues were very poor or even unwatchable at my location.

The purpose of this thread is to provide reasonable reliable [but amatuer as I am an amatuer] information on the changeover as it affects wexford,wicklow and probably carlow and Kilkenny and maybe waterford.

By all means ask any questions and I and one or two others here will endeavour to answer them.

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gkp1

Sorry Timetunnel, have not got around to trying this yet...may even wait until next Feb 10th when Blaen switches over. would be interested to hear your results if you try it.

mrdtv

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=36441862

Very interesting post here:

I can confirm that I receive Llandonna and Preseli in Wexford Town where I am frequent visitor. Many people on the East coast were worried that following DSO they would lose reception. I find the signal strength much better now its fully digital and happily record stuff on my Tevion PVR box.

I still have a Topfield in my home and am eagerly waiting for Granada to start HD transmissions

I live in Colwyn Bay and following the DSO in North Wales I can, for the first time receive local BBC1 and BBC 2 Wales. In the past I have always received my signals from Winter Hill (I now have the luxury of both BBC1/BBC2 England and Wales)[/QUOTE]
and informative post here.

marclt

mrdtv wrote: »

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=36441862

Very interesting post here:

I can confirm that I receive Llandonna and Preseli in Wexford Town where I am frequent visitor. Many people on the East coast were worried that following DSO they would lose reception. I find the signal strength much better now its fully digital and happily record stuff on my Tevion PVR box.

I still have a Topfield in my home and am eagerly waiting for Granada to start HD transmissions

I live in Colwyn Bay and following the DSO in North Wales I can, for the first time receive local BBC1 and BBC 2 Wales. In the past I have always received my signals from Winter Hill (I now have the luxury of both BBC1/BBC2 England and Wales)

and informative post here.[/quote]

Preseli and Llandonna? I'm a bit confused by this. As Preseli and Llandonna are co-channel on 43, 46 and 50 then I'd be surprised.

Also Llandonna and Carmel share frequencies so perhaps they are coming from there. Without knowing which muxes are on which frequencies it is hard to know.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

and informative post here.

Preseli and Llandonna? I'm a bit confused by this. As Preseli and Llandonna are co-channel on 43, 46 and 50 then I'd be surprised.

Also Llandonna and Carmel share frequencies so perhaps they are coming from there. Without knowing which muxes are on which frequencies it is hard to know.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but they are not on the PSB muxes which are all to run at 20kW (Arfon switches over in two weeks along with Llanddona) and the Llandona COM muxes are only to broadcast at 10kW, so I can't see there being much CCI with the angular separation being so wide in Wexford. I can't see Carmel coming through its too far away, heavily shielded by terrain, and cochannel with Kippure DTT. Certainly its a very interesting post as its the first result for Llanddona if confirmed. BTW Winter Hill DSO is romping into South Down so there may be possibilities in the Louth/Meath coastal areas.

marclt

mrdtv wrote: »

Preseli and Llandonna? I'm a bit confused by this. As Preseli and Llandonna are co-channel on 43, 46 and 50 then I'd be surprised.

Also Llandonna and Carmel share frequencies so perhaps they are coming from there. Without knowing which muxes are on which frequencies it is hard to know.

Yes, but they are not on the PSB muxes which are all to run at 20kW (Arfon switches over in two weeks along with Llanddona) and the Llandona COM muxes are only to broadcast at 10kW, so I can't see there being much CCI with the angular separation being so wide in Wexford. I can't see Carmel coming through its too far away, heavily shielded by terrain, and cochannel with Kippure DTT. Certainly its a very interesting post as its the first result for Llanddona if confirmed. BTW Winter Hill DSO is romping into South Down so there may be possibilities in the Louth/Meath coastal areas.[/quote]

I'm surprised because in all the years I've lived in Wexford town, I've never seen an aerial pointing to Llandonna! I've had analogue from there, but mostly Carmel co-channel as well as others. I 'd need alot more confirmation on this.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

Yes, but they are not on the PSB muxes which are all to run at 20kW (Arfon switches over in two weeks along with Llanddona) and the Llandona COM muxes are only to broadcast at 10kW, so I can't see there being much CCI with the angular separation being so wide in Wexford. I can't see Carmel coming through its too far away, heavily shielded by terrain, and cochannel with Kippure DTT. Certainly its a very interesting post as its the first result for Llanddona if confirmed. BTW Winter Hill DSO is romping into South Down so there may be possibilities in the Louth/Meath coastal areas.

I'm surprised because in all the years I've lived in Wexford town, I've never seen an aerial pointing to Llandonna! I've had analogue from there, but mostly Carmel co-channel as well as others. I 'd need alot more confirmation on this.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but no more analogue in two weeks time from there. I already asked him for a confirmation.

Sponge Bob

Must mail this guy http://mpeg4ireland.com/map.php and tell him to add the Welsh Transmitters

fat-tony

Having given up at this stage on receiving anything from LLanddona, I oriented the aerial for vertical polarisation and pointed it at Arfon. Nothing received on CH41:( I think the issue for me is that my house is in a bit of a "dip" and the ground rises by about 10m between me and the sea. I can see a neighbouring housing estate with grid antennas (Colour King type) pointing at Arfon, but they would be at the 10m higher level. My own estate has no aerials at all, but it's fully cabled and most people have satellite in any case. I'm using a Maxview wideband aerial (18 directors and a flat plate reflector) and a Labgear variable gain masthead amp and CT100 cable. The aerial is pretty much contract quality, but I figured it would have higher gain than the neighbouring grid aerials. I'm sort of surprised that I'm getting no signal - nothing seen on Arfon analogue either. It's not a connection problem as I was getting signal from Northern England during the tropo in September. The signal from Three Rock was booming in on the sidelobe when the aerial was horizontal and now it has dropped significantly when the aerial is vertical. I must be in an RF shadow as far as Wales is concerned.:mad:

mrdtv

fat-tony wrote: »

Having given up at this stage on receiving anything from LLanddona, I oriented the aerial for vertical polarisation and pointed it at Arfon. Nothing received on CH41:( I think the issue for me is that my house is in a bit of a "dip" and the ground rises by about 10m between me and the sea. I can see a neighbouring housing estate with grid antennas (Colour King type) pointing at Arfon, but they would be at the 10m higher level. My own estate has no aerials at all, but it's fully cabled and most people have satellite in any case. I'm using a Maxview wideband aerial (18 directors and a flat plate reflector) and a Labgear variable gain masthead amp and CT100 cable. The aerial is pretty much contract quality, but I figured it would have higher gain than the neighbouring grid aerials. I'm sort of surprised that I'm getting no signal - nothing seen on Arfon analogue either. It's not a connection problem as I was getting signal from Northern England during the tropo in September. The signal from Three Rock was booming in on the sidelobe when the aerial was horizontal and now it has dropped significantly when the aerial is vertical. I must be in an RF shadow as far as Wales is concerned.:mad:

Tilt the aerial upwards a few degrees if you can..

fat-tony

Done that - the aerial takes on a natural upward tilt, because the standoff on the lashing bracket does not quite clear the "lip" or cill around the top of the chimney, so the mast is just past vertical.

[Deleted User]

Arfon is great in line of sight conditions but like many outside of normal range low power tx's it does not like tree's or a higher field that blocks a seapath view.

We could always get presely analogue quite good here at chimney height despite a higher field blocking it's seapath view.
We changed to arfon because the cairn hill co channel on presely was so bad.
It was almost not there at all at chimney height but crystal clear once we went above the tree's and the higher field.
That took a 40ft mast on the roof though or 60ft in total.

Theres a dip a mile down the road where most people just get snow but one person has an almighty mast,it must be 80ft.
People with seapath views are using grids.

fat-tony

Must be the fact I'm in a dip, so:(
According to Google Earth my house is 20m above sea level, the neighbouring estate is 29m asl - all using grids.
I'm not putting in a 10m pole, though!

[Deleted User]

In other news,I'm hearing of a local enterprising guy who has bought dozens of cheapo freeview decoders and is flogging them round the area for €50 a piece.
At least the profit is being made locally [unlike sky]

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

In other news,I'm hearing of a local enterprising guy who has bought dozens of cheapo freeview decoders and is flogging them round the area for €50 a piece.
At least the profit is being made locally [unlike sky]

Yes, he's going to be very busy come Wednesday when Arfon analogue goes off. Sorry to hear Fat Tony is in a dip for Arfon: the solution for you is Freesat. As a general rule if you couldn't get Welsh analogue you shouldn't expect DTT, since its designed to replicate the coverage. The tell-tale indicator was that no one nearby had antennas whereas the neighbouring estate are all using grids.Its always location, location, location with RF!

mrdtv

From Jordy over on ukfree.tv: Note that Arfon VHF used to be received in South Down years ago but once again this shows that the high power UK DTT signals are romping across the Irish Sea. The measured results for Arfon giving all the key metrics I would like to see are quite simply excellent!

Can anyone identify these three? - E45 is about 65% strength (18dB) and 62% quality 3.5e-04 BER. E54 is about 95% strength (24dB) and 100% quality 0 BER. E61 is about 60% strength (17dB) and 60% quality 6e-04 BER.
That's D3&4 from Arfon i kid you not: Current strength 100% 25.0dB C/N and quality 100% BER=0.00.
Posted by Jordy (1,343 posts) on Wednesday 18 November 2009 11:44PM, 5 hours ago.

Sponge Bob

mrdtv wrote: »

Can anyone identify these three? - E45 is about 65% strength (18dB) and 62% quality 3.5e-04 BER. E54 is about 95% strength (24dB) and 100% quality 0 BER. E61 is about 60% strength (17dB) and 60% quality 6e-04 BER.

Mt Leinster started transmitting on Ch45 ( is that what E45 is ) so there may and indeed should be a concerted IE/UK effort ongoing to fine tune this one at present .

There is an obligation to co ordinate main transmitters internationally given their power and nuisance potential .

This could be the TV engineers version of the Good Friday Agreement except that it will probably result in a full and final resolution by the end of next week .

Ch 54 is the Kippure/3Rock Public MUX and is an SFN to complicate matters .
Ch 61 would be another Mux on that SFN , probably commercial not public service .

Reports of picture breakup / interference on 3Rock this week .

Main Transmitters 'facing' Wales , note !

Kippure 54 58 61 64
3Rock 54 58 61 64
Mt Leinster 39 42 45 49

HTH

mrdtv

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Mt Leinster started transmitting on Ch45 ( is that what E45 is ) so there may and indeed should be a concerted IE/UK effort ongoing to fine tune this one at present .

There is an obligation to co ordinate main transmitters internationally given their power and nuisance potential .

This could be the TV engineers version of the Good Friday Agreement except that it will probably result in a full and final resolution by the end of next week .

Ch 54 is the Kippure/3Rock Public MUX and is an SFN to complicate matters .
Ch 61 would be another Mux on that SFN , probably commercial not public service .

Reports of picture breakup / interference on 3Rock this week .

Main Transmitters 'facing' Wales , note !

Kippure 54 58 61 64
3Rock 54 58 61 64
Mt Leinster 39 42 45 49

HTH

No! He's far too far north to get Mount Leinster. E45 in his location is Moel-y-Parc and the analogue equivalent on the same channel was always received in South and East Down. MyP is an omnidirectional HRP and its received on the IOM and throughout the NW as well as North Wales (its causing retuning chaos in Granadaland because of its new DSO footprint but that is another story.) There are no high power UK DTT stations near Kippure /Three Rock to interfere with them ( Carmel is too far away and the Welsh Mountains provide natural shielding.). Winter Hill will operate on 54 (HD) and 58,61 (COM muxes) but these are not on air until December 2nd: the interference is likely to be tropo or just part of the engineering tests.

Bob_Harris

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Must mail this guy http://mpeg4ireland.com/map.php and tell him to add the Welsh Transmitters

I set up an gmail address but never actually checked it, for shame. I've changed it to info @ mpeg4ireland.com which forwards the mail to my personal email address so I'll be sure to read future mail.

Anyway, I've set up a UK Freeview subdomain, http://ukfreeview.mpeg4ireland.com, for Freeview reception reports.

From quickly scanning over this thread I've added Presely, Arfon and Llanddona. Someone with more know how might suggest what and what should not be on the map.

I've also finally gotten around to updating and adding some content to mpeg4ireland.com, which should start appearing over the next few days.

Sponge Bob

Add Blaenpwylf 52:21.5834N 4:6.1702W

The three you marked are 3 group b and blaenpwylf is on group a which may be a useful point .

also see http://www.ukfree.tv/

Bob_Harris

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Add Blaenpwylf 52:21.5834N 4:6.1702W

The three you marked are 3 group b and blaenpwylf is on group a which may be a useful point .

also see http://www.ukfree.tv/

Added that.

When you say group b and group a do you mean the aerial type which should be used to pick up the broadcast from a particular transmitter?

[Deleted User]

yes.
However a good wideband with a masthead powered amp will be adequate for both presely and Blaenplwyf.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

yes.
However a good wideband with a masthead powered amp will be adequate for both presely and Blaenplwyf.

Usually people prefer Group A aerials over wideband for Group A stations such as Blaen Plwyf but with a masthead and BP's 40kW DTT the differences should be minimal. It would be interesting to know who is still receiving Blaen Plwyf analogue from Wales as that is an interesting proxy.

reslfj

mrdtv wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

yes.
However a good wideband with a masthead powered amp will be adequate for both presely and Blaenplwyf.

Usually people prefer Group A aerials over wideband for Group A stations such as Blaen Plwyf but with a masthead and BP's 40kW DTT the differences should be minimal.

No amplifier can replace a higher aerial gain. Any masthead amp should have very low noise figure (2 dB or lower).

Take a look at this site. It has a lot of useful information. *
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvstockaerialtests.html#Bgroup

Also note the typical wind loads:
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvschoiceofaerials.html#AerialDimensions

Lars

* Note "To convert dBi to dBd deduct 2.15". Asume dBi unless dBd is explicitly written.

mrdtv

reslfj wrote: »

No amplifier can replace a higher aerial gain. Any masthead amp should have very low noise figure (2 dB or lower).

Take a look at this site. It has a lot of useful information. *
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvstockaerialtests.html#Bgroup

Also note the typical wind loads:
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/atvschoiceofaerials.html#AerialDimensions

Lars

* Note "To convert dBi to dBd deduct 2.15". Asume dBi unless dBd is explicitly written.

You missed the irony in my post: the differences are de minimis. Being Nordic we can't expect you to fully grasp the semantic nuances in the English language. BTW the exchange was about aerials and masthead amplifiers, not windloading: talk about meandering through a bed of footnotes! You sir are a timewaster.

Sponge Bob

Big thanks to Bob Harris from Sponge Central , great site.

It should be highly placed in any sticky here seeing as DTT will launch with too few transmitters next year .

As for the rest of it

In plain english

Wideband aerials will do groups B C D well but NOT group A

Group A IDEALLY needs a Group A Aerial .

Windloading is very important if you live in a coastal location and not so much inland .

F**king with windloading could lose you a chimney and a roof because you overstress the mounting point which is usually a chimney if the aerial is overly large !

whizbang

Im getting 70% signal from Arfon on ch41, on sony TV. but no other mux. Picnic box gets ch44 but quality at 0%, no channels shown.
since the same 2kw power is listed for all, how come i dont have any others?
btw crappy fireguard is for replacement soon, however many questions posted about buying in aerials in ireland, but i cant find any answers. anybody?

mrdtv

whizbang wrote: »

Im getting 70% signal from Arfon on ch41, on sony TV. but no other mux. Picnic box gets ch44 but quality at 0%, no channels shown.
since the same 2kw power is listed for all, how come i dont have any others?
btw crappy fireguard is for replacement soon, however many questions posted about buying in aerials in ireland, but i cant find any answers. anybody?

Aerial + cable + masthead if any needs replacing! One other thing: check RF out of Picnic box for a clash with 44. Others are getting perfect Arfon. NB only broadcasting two muxes until next year when HD is launched.

[Deleted User]

whizbang wrote: »

Im getting 70% signal from Arfon on ch41, on sony TV. but no other mux. Picnic box gets ch44 but quality at 0%, no channels shown.
since the same 2kw power is listed for all, how come i dont have any others?
btw crappy fireguard is for replacement soon, however many questions posted about buying in aerials in ireland, but i cant find any answers. anybody?

You need a nice shiny new group B with a new masthead amp probably.
If you have 70% on 41,then thats a good sign,it means the signal is there from arfon and getting through.
You should have at least 60 to 65% on ch44.
As Mrdtv said,it's a simple aerial and masthead and cable issue.

cnocbui

whizbang wrote: »

however many questions posted about buying in aerials in ireland, but i cant find any answers. anybody?

I imported a Fracarro antennae from the UK when I received no replies to a query about sourcing one here. Even with exorbitant postage it was cheaper than simmilar Argos offerings.

http://www.fracarro.co.uk/

Downlod the catalogue and look for something with a LOT of gain (provided you can manage the wind loading!)

mrdtv

cnocbui wrote: »

I imported a Fracarro antennae from the UK when I received no replies to a query about sourcing one here. Even with exorbitant postage it was cheaper than simmilar Argos offerings.

http://www.fracarro.co.uk/

Downlod the catalogue and look for something with a LOT of gain (provided you can manage the wind loading!)

Which one? Let us know how you get on.