Left 4 Dead 2 Launch

Overheal wrote: »

Well, you pay taxes, so you arent allowed to complain how the money is spent either.

Lol, and you win the stupidest analogy in thread award.
You have no choice but to pay taxes. And you have no direct say on how they are spent like you do with the decision of whether or not to buy a game.

Sandvich wrote: »

I bought it for the content that Valve promised it would give.

While not directly related, just curious, do you not think a Valve game at launch is worth the money on it's own? And then treat any further content as a bonus? Because there are lots of games that launch and have one or two bug fixing patches and that's it.

Sandvich wrote: »

What, like the serious performance issues that make it so Arkham Asylum gets better frame rates? TF2 ran nearly twice as well on my old laptop, before all the updates I hardly ever use(Save Payload). Thanks Valve. Thalve.

You're saying the game worked fine and Valve went onto break it? So surely you'd prefer them not to do the same to l4d?

Jumpy wrote: »

Tesco sells baked beans right? right?

They bring out a new Baked Beans and Sausages. WHERE THE **** ARE MY FREE SAUSAGES?
THEY WANT ME TO BUY A NEW CAN? **** THAT.

Thats what you sound like.

I buy games based on whether I think I would like to play them. I dont think upgrades need to be free. Bug fixes should obviously be free.
I dont like advertising for content in game (a'la Dragon Age) but this isnt it.

This is a new game. You bought L4D for what it contained at release.

I bought it for the content that Valve promised it would give. What do you hope to achieve by trying to goad people into feeling good about being ripped off? Do you not realise you're doing the exact opposite of what we should be doing? You're trying to feel smarter and more mature by stopping the defense mechanism people have that helps stop them from getting manipulated and screwed over.

You ignored completely the fact that they promised several times to give you sausages later on. This is what I hate about Valve fanboys - since there's no way to really defend selling a game on the back of broken promises, they just ignore half the argument so it better matches their intellectual capacity.

Seifer wrote: »

TF2 is not incomplete. You bought the full game at launch, anything you got after that was a bonus.

What, like the serious performance issues that make it so Arkham Asylum gets better frame rates? TF2 ran nearly twice as well on my old laptop, before all the updates I hardly ever use(Save Payload). Thanks Valve. Thalve.

Seifer wrote: »

Complaining about some problem you didn't know existed before you bought the game is fair game. Complaining about some problem you knew existed and you didn't like and then buying the game anyway is foolish at the very least.
People who bought MW2 on PC have no right to complain about dedicated servers as they knew that they were supporting IW's decision when they bought the game.

Well, you pay taxes, so you arent allowed to complain how the money is spent either.

Overheal wrote: »

I'm allowed to make a point and be critical. Just as MW2 players are allowed to be critical of the lack of Dedicated Server Support while still owning the title.

Complaining about some problem you didn't know existed before you bought the game is fair game. Complaining about some problem you knew existed and you didn't like and then buying the game anyway is foolish at the very least.
People who bought MW2 on PC have no right to complain about dedicated servers as they knew that they were supporting IW's decision when they bought the game.

Seifer wrote: »

If you feel that way then why didn't you wait and let us test it out and you pick it up at the first half-price weekend?
Maybe because you know it's great fun and well worth the money and you're just whining for the sake of whining?

Given the last title to go off of, I estimated that L4D2 would probably not see a significant price drop until at least late March.

And have you ever heard of Acceptance Under Protest?

I'm allowed to make a point and be critical. Just as MW2 players are allowed to be critical of the lack of Dedicated Server Support while still owning the title.

Overheal wrote: »

It only launched last week and with millions of players suddenly "testing" it, thats bound to happen. But that only begs the question - 9 months? Full price for 9 months? I would have thought a half off launch special At Least given the development cycle for this sequel must have left absolutely no time for alpha and beta testing.

Its not just those annoying hiccups its the AI in general; much of it is just carried over from the original. Theyve added a lot, and the zombies are great (they SI seem much smarter - and I both loathe and respect the Spitter and Charger) but theres been nothing added to the Survivor AI. We lost the Mall finale because Nick the Bobblehead got 'stuck' standing around on the first floor.

If you feel that way then why didn't you wait and let us test it out and you pick it up at the first half-price weekend?
Maybe because you know it's great fun and well worth the money and you're just whining for the sake of whining?

MM tries to link the players. If I tried MM'ng with half of you (South Carolina to Ireland) We would get the ****tiest ping ever, and the server would probably be in Greenland or Canada somewhere.

As for the mall thing - that musta sucked on Versus. Much less an issue on Campaign but those windows are both odd and strange. I am sure thats gonna get fixed.

It only launched last week and with millions of players suddenly "testing" it, thats bound to happen. But that only begs the question - 9 months? Full price for 9 months? I would have thought a half off launch special At Least given the development cycle for this sequel must have left absolutely no time for alpha and beta testing.

Its not just those annoying hiccups its the AI in general; much of it is just carried over from the original. Theyve added a lot, and the zombies are great (they SI seem much smarter - and I both loathe and respect the Spitter and Charger) but theres been nothing added to the Survivor AI. We lost the Mall finale because Nick the Bobblehead got 'stuck' standing around on the first floor.

Overheal wrote: »

Its like owning a perfectly good house and deciding to start building an extenstion. Its hard to call it a finished house when its riddled with scaffolding. Yes theres a kitchen and a bath and bedrooms, but I wouldnt make it my first choice for holding a christmas party.

Indeed. Just played a game of L4D2 there, in the mall campaign, we were playing VS and the tank cannot progress near the survivors because theres windows in the way... Only the survivors can break the window. This facilitates much ******ry, and the survivor team still wait minutes after the AI kicks into the tank. Needless to say I quit that fairly lively. I'm not impressed.

Big scary ass tank and numerous SI vs mall windows... Mall windows 1 - Infected 0.

Also they still have stages in the day where the dedicated servers break, and you get thrown into 500ping plus servers, probably in another solar system. This is a problem that has spanned across the two games. I blame matchmaking.

Seifer wrote: »

TF2 is not incomplete. You bought the full game at launch, anything you got after that was a bonus.

Just as L4D was "Complete" at launch, and L4D2 was "Complete" at launch.

TF2 was complete at launch. Then the Medic Pack came out and began to change everything. The game is now at a point where it is not the Game it was when it launched and it is not the game it is planned to be at the end of these releases. Incomplete.

Its like owning a perfectly good house and deciding to start building an extenstion. Its hard to call it a finished house when its riddled with scaffolding. Yes theres a kitchen and a bath and bedrooms, but I wouldnt make it my first choice for holding a christmas party.

Jumpy wrote: »

* Also I cant afford one.

Yeah well its ****e. Dont bother. Gathers dust here.

Overheal wrote: »

TF2 is 2 years old and is still Incomplete. 3 Packs to go; They got 3 done in 08; 3 done in 09 and I wager it will take until late next year to get the last of it in.

TF2 is not incomplete. You bought the full game at launch, anything you got after that was a bonus.

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

Yes, the early versions of steam were full of fail. And in the next few minutes I shall be starting up L4D2! I can understand why people are bitter, it doesn't take a genius, but now I feel that i've more or less got my moneys worth, unlike the situation in my counter analogy above, but you have to admit, my analogy was better. :P

No its isnt, I refuse to accept the existance of consoles, therefore I do not know what this PS3 is of which you speak.*

* Also I cant afford one.

Yes, the early versions of steam were full of fail. And in the next few minutes I shall be starting up L4D2! I can understand why people are bitter, it doesn't take a genius, but now I feel that i've more or less got my moneys worth, unlike the situation in my counter analogy above, but you have to admit, my analogy was better. :P

Actually I would rather go and play the game I paid for and hope they use the money wisely to develop new cool stuff that I would continue to happily buy.

By all means continue to rage.

P.S. - I have disliked Valves developer crew since they brought out steam. They are unorganised and ill prepared for releases the majority of the time. But there is a major difference between that and what you guys want.
No one gets free sausages. Except maybe that one that I dropped on the ground. You can have that.

Jumpy wrote: »

Tesco sells baked beans right? right?

They bring out a new Baked Beans and Sausages. WHERE THE **** ARE MY FREE SAUSAGES?
THEY WANT ME TO BUY A NEW CAN? **** THAT.

Thats what you sound like.

Lol quoted for lulz. Worst analogy ever.

Heres a better one. Sony launch the PS3, not even a year later they release PS4 after me buying the launch model for 600+ bux while not fixing the major bugs in the previous system and leaving its community mostly dead in the water regarding content and a few of them very bitter.
THEY WANT ME TO BUY A NEW CONSOLE? **** THAT.

Actually, theres no analogy that I could use that could fail as much has yours right now. Lads, get in here and try!

Edit: Baked beans... oh i lulled.

Jumpy wrote: »

Tesco sells baked beans right? right?

They bring out a new Baked Beans and Sausages. WHERE THE **** ARE MY FREE SAUSAGES?
THEY WANT ME TO BUY A NEW CAN? **** THAT.

Thats what you sound like.

I buy games based on whether I think I would like to play them. I dont think upgrades need to be free. Bug fixes should obviously be free.
I dont like advertising for content in game (a'la Dragon Age) but this isnt it.

This is a new game. You bought L4D for what it contained at release.

I know there is a facepalm out there that actually goes to the molecular level of Patrick Stewarts face. But its still not big enough for this.

Sandvich wrote: »

Gee, thanks for being exactly what I was talking about. Why should Valve need to fix bugs and deliver on promise content if they have a bunch of internet tough guys running around slapping /b/ humour in the face of anyone who says they're less than godly?

If you had a real argument, you would have posted that instead. If you had no argument but a strong desire to stand up for a company that doesn't really care about you, you would have posted something along the lines of what you just did.

Everything I said is true. We paid to beta test L4D2. Valve make money from TF2 updates. Valve failed to deliver on promised content.

Tesco sells baked beans right? right?

They bring out a new Baked Beans and Sausages. WHERE THE **** ARE MY FREE SAUSAGES?
THEY WANT ME TO BUY A NEW CAN? **** THAT.

Thats what you sound like.

I buy games based on whether I think I would like to play them. I dont think upgrades need to be free. Bug fixes should obviously be free.
I dont like advertising for content in game (a'la Dragon Age) but this isnt it.

This is a new game. You bought L4D for what it contained at release.

witnessmenow

Its a better game than the first one.

Its no longer just about finding a good corner to camp in for the events. The new specials are a great addition that combat against tactics that worked well in the first one.

Sorry about having to leave last night lads, my gf , who is home from scotland for the weekend, arrived in just before we started the second last chapter, I think I did ok to get in any game time after that :P

You know I honestly feel its too early to tell. Its been a cluster**** year in many respects, as I mentioned in my last post.

L4D and L4D2 - its too early to call. But I can tell you this: its going to be something that gets brought up in conversation 5-10 years from now. And it will take at least another year to see if Valve begins to fill their promises.

TF2 is 2 years old and is still Incomplete. 3 Packs to go; They got 3 done in 08; 3 done in 09 and I wager it will take until late next year to get the last of it in.

L4D (I will regard it as One unless stated otherwise) is a year old, and you know the story.

Truthfully it could be the middle of 2011 before we can look back and say anything about it for certain. The only thing we do know, is we paid on average 2x-5x as much for L4D as we did for TF2 - so we're praying and hoping that both the quality and quantity of the content turns out to be up to scratch.

Speaking of 5 year hindsight though: CSS never saw any DLC

Fnz

Sandvich wrote: »

Wrong.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G9pqaiMzv

I really hate the "Sense of Entitlement" nonsense. People should absolutely have a sense of entitlement and expect to get the most for this money. It amazes me that one of the most basic rules of not letting capitalism screw you over seems to go out the window when people don't want to admit Valve are jerks. TF2 was a budget game. L4D was not. And we were promised content. And you know, TF2 has been plagued with serious optimisation issues Valve have refused to even admit existed, while adding more crap to the game. The Halo fiasco was absolutely insane, not only because it was childish but because the Halos themselves have max_particles set to 80, thus making the optimisation issues even worse. There's even a flag which turns down the particles, the main source of the optimisation issues, but it's a "Cheat" and Valve refuse to change this status.

Valve are not good guys. Every time they release an update for TF2 the sales go up again. They're doing it for a reason. Because fanboys stepped in with L4D/L4D2, they didn't feel the need to do the same thing here.

Valve made promises, they didn't deliver. They didn't throw the fans a single bone save the Crash Course which was HALF a campaign.

L4D was a let down. Valve are liars and the L4D2 uproar fading away was a sad thing for gaming. Not being a mindless consumer does not make you a whiny fanboy. We probably wouldn't have gotten Crash Course if it wasn't for the Whiny Fanboys anyway.

I don't care how awesome L4D2 is because I made a commitment that I woiuld not purchase the game at full price. This is called having principles, and when you lap up anything a particular company gives you, you have no standards.

Sandvich wrote: »

I don't mind so much people buying the game. I'd rather they didn't, but I realise there's a cost/benefit analysis going on here.

But this whole sense of entitlement, whiny fanboy thing needs to stop. You should at least be less likely to buy Valve products over this, or more cautious.

And well, of course L4D2 feels more polished than the original - we paid to beta test it by buying L4D!

If L4D2 feels more polished too it means they put ALL The effort into the sequel and never even tried a serious update for the original.

This isn't because Valve cares about the community. The Halo fiasco beyond a doubt for me showed where their priorities lie - they put huge effort into punishing "cheaters"(after outright saying they wouldn't take action an idlers, Valve is full of **** like this) while simultaneously aggrivating a problem they'd ignored.

They've been able to extend out the lifetime of a $20 budget game immensely with these updates, not to mention the huge amount of free viral advertising. A class update is like an international holiday online.

Other companies just have different business models. In fact outside of TF2, Valve has a different business model. It only applies to TF2 because it's easy to add **** weapons to it and still get people to buy it.

Thanks for the link (though the youtube one seems broken). The argument goes "they did release more movies, more characters, more weapons, etc.; they did it by releasing the sequel". I find it extremely disingenuous to say that when Valve mentioned these things in the same breath as Team Fortress 2. Valve made these statements and should have stayed true to their word. Even so I'm not sure it's fair to say "they practically sold the game on the back of [...promised updates]".

I disagree with the notion that the first game was nothing more than a beta test. I have put 160+ hours into it, which is more time than I put into any game I can think of in the past 5 years. I got my money's worth out of the first one and decided that the sequel would be a worthy purchase too.

I don't get your problem with the TF2 updates though. Valve get a bump in sales, long-time owners get changing content and a larger pool of people to play against. Would it be more or less egregious to you if they put out TF3 instead?

Whether or not they "care about the community", Valve tend to release quality products and don't churn out sequels annually. They put out "The Orange Box" which was/is arguably the greatest bargain in gaming history. On top of this, they are reputed to be a good developer to work for, in that they are good to their employees. Things like this garner them favour and, I imagine, is why people see them as 'good guys'.

What high profile developer would you rate above Valve in the "good guys" stakes?

Jumpy wrote: »

I know there is a facepalm out there that actually goes to the molecular level of Patrick Stewarts face. But its still not big enough for this.

Gee, thanks for being exactly what I was talking about. Why should Valve need to fix bugs and deliver on promise content if they have a bunch of internet tough guys running around slapping /b/ humour in the face of anyone who says they're less than godly?

If you had a real argument, you would have posted that instead. If you had no argument but a strong desire to stand up for a company that doesn't really care about you, you would have posted something along the lines of what you just did.

Everything I said is true. We paid to beta test L4D2. Valve make money from TF2 updates. Valve failed to deliver on promised content.

Actually I thought Sandvich's criticisms were fair enough. In valves own words they pretty much said that in the process of doing the DLC for L4D they got so carried away with themselves they said **** it lets do a sequel.

Outside of the Survivor pack, which added little more than a new lighthouse map and tweaked a few maps for Survivor and VS modes, theyve added little. Even the SDK was late to emerge. And only since last week have they finally added 4 v 4 matchmaking. Crash Course could be considered some proper DLC. Its a small campaign but its the equivalent to a few new maps in a TF2 release. Still again though, the ~10 people that work on TF2 24/7 8/5 manage to come out with far more than the God Knows how many people who have themselves working on the L4D branch.

The only thing that makes sense about it is Recession: Valve needed/wanted a big injection of new revenue in case the worst should happen (And the gaming industry has began slumping in the last few months as the Unemployment rate has skyrocketed then slowly leveled off). The other thing is Pure: theres always been a TF2 minority that misses Vanilla TF2. Launch Day TF2 plus bug fixes. Start adding new weapons and Infected to L4D and it becomes a different game in a couple respects. But I guess that really applies more to TF2 than L4D: I couldnt imagine that running No Mercy in L4D2 would break the map balance or anything.

Sandvich wrote: »

I don't mind so much people buying the game. I'd rather they didn't, but I realise there's a cost/benefit analysis going on here.

But this whole sense of entitlement, whiny fanboy thing needs to stop. You should at least be less likely to buy Valve products over this, or more cautious.

And well, of course L4D2 feels more polished than the original - we paid to beta test it by buying L4D!

If L4D2 feels more polished too it means they put ALL The effort into the sequel and never even tried a serious update for the original.

This isn't because Valve cares about the community. The Halo fiasco beyond a doubt for me showed where their priorities lie - they put huge effort into punishing "cheaters"(after outright saying they wouldn't take action an idlers, Valve is full of **** like this) while simultaneously aggrivating a problem they'd ignored.

They've been able to extend out the lifetime of a $20 budget game immensely with these updates, not to mention the huge amount of free viral advertising. A class update is like an international holiday online.

Other companies just have different business models. In fact outside of TF2, Valve has a different business model. It only applies to TF2 because it's easy to add **** weapons to it and still get people to buy it.

I know there is a facepalm out there that actually goes to the molecular level of Patrick Stewarts face. But its still not big enough for this.

I don't mind so much people buying the game. I'd rather they didn't, but I realise there's a cost/benefit analysis going on here.

But this whole sense of entitlement, whiny fanboy thing needs to stop. You should at least be less likely to buy Valve products over this, or more cautious.

And well, of course L4D2 feels more polished than the original - we paid to beta test it by buying L4D!

If L4D2 feels more polished too it means they put ALL The effort into the sequel and never even tried a serious update for the original.

I do think some people underestimate Valve though when it comes to community support. There are loads of games on the market where you're lucky to get more than 2 or 3 updates (Football Manager is a series I play a lot, 3 is a luxury with any single title). With Valve you typically get 2 or 3 updates a month. They aren't perfect by any means, but they are better than most and make damn good games while they are at it.

This isn't because Valve cares about the community. The Halo fiasco beyond a doubt for me showed where their priorities lie - they put huge effort into punishing "cheaters"(after outright saying they wouldn't take action an idlers, Valve is full of **** like this) while simultaneously aggrivating a problem they'd ignored.

They've been able to extend out the lifetime of a $20 budget game immensely with these updates, not to mention the huge amount of free viral advertising. A class update is like an international holiday online.

Other companies just have different business models. In fact outside of TF2, Valve has a different business model. It only applies to TF2 because it's easy to add **** weapons to it and still get people to buy it.

leninbenjamin

Sandvich wrote: »

Wrong.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G9pqaiMzv

I really hate the "Sense of Entitlement" nonsense. People should absolutely have a sense of entitlement and expect to get the most for this money. It amazes me that one of the most basic rules of not letting capitalism screw you over seems to go out the window when people don't want to admit Valve are jerks. TF2 was a budget game. L4D was not. And we were promised content. And you know, TF2 has been plagued with serious optimisation issues Valve have refused to even admit existed, while adding more crap to the game. The Halo fiasco was absolutely insane, not only because it was childish but because the Halos themselves have max_particles set to 80, thus making the optimisation issues even worse. There's even a flag which turns down the particles, the main source of the optimisation issues, but it's a "Cheat" and Valve refuse to change this status.

Valve are not good guys. Every time they release an update for TF2 the sales go up again. They're doing it for a reason. Because fanboys stepped in with L4D/L4D2, they didn't feel the need to do the same thing here.

Valve made promises, they didn't deliver. They didn't throw the fans a single bone save the Crash Course which was HALF a campaign.

L4D was a let down. Valve are liars and the L4D2 uproar fading away was a sad thing for gaming. Not being a mindless consumer does not make you a whiny fanboy. We probably wouldn't have gotten Crash Course if it wasn't for the Whiny Fanboys anyway.

I don't care how awesome L4D2 is because I made a commitment that I woiuld not purchase the game at full price. This is called having principles, and when you lap up anything a particular company gives you, you have no standards.

There are a lot of fair point there all right. There were a lot of disappointments over the lack of (content) support L4D got after release. However, when you consider how much time I spent playing the game with me mates it becomes pretty marginal imo.

Secondly, having bitten the bullet and bought L4D2, like Leimrod i was surprised with how much more polished the game feels than the original. There are still a lot of flaws with the path finding and survivor AI in particular, but overall the game looks damn good and plays better than the original. All in all, I prefer getting another full iteration of the game rather than some small increments, even if it means paying for it.

I do think some people underestimate Valve though when it comes to community support. There are loads of games on the market where you're lucky to get more than 2 or 3 updates (Football Manager is a series I play a lot, 3 is a luxury with any single title). With Valve you typically get 2 or 3 updates a month. They aren't perfect by any means, but they are better than most and make damn good games while they are at it.

Fnz wrote: »

I think you'll find it difficult to track down instances of Valve saying anything specific about how they would be supporting the original game, post release. I too was (absolutely) expecting more content that we received in the end but my assumption was based on their past actions with TF2. Chances are, the games media probably suggested that TF2-style updates would be a possibility too. This could be why you figured more free DLC, on top of Survival and Crash Course, would be coming down the pike.

I think people, generally, have to temper their sense of entitlement when it comes to free content.

Wrong.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G9pqaiMzv

I really hate the "Sense of Entitlement" nonsense. People should absolutely have a sense of entitlement and expect to get the most for this money. It amazes me that one of the most basic rules of not letting capitalism screw you over seems to go out the window when people don't want to admit Valve are jerks. TF2 was a budget game. L4D was not. And we were promised content. And you know, TF2 has been plagued with serious optimisation issues Valve have refused to even admit existed, while adding more crap to the game. The Halo fiasco was absolutely insane, not only because it was childish but because the Halos themselves have max_particles set to 80, thus making the optimisation issues even worse. There's even a flag which turns down the particles, the main source of the optimisation issues, but it's a "Cheat" and Valve refuse to change this status.

Valve are not good guys. Every time they release an update for TF2 the sales go up again. They're doing it for a reason. Because fanboys stepped in with L4D/L4D2, they didn't feel the need to do the same thing here.

Valve made promises, they didn't deliver. They didn't throw the fans a single bone save the Crash Course which was HALF a campaign.

L4D was a let down. Valve are liars and the L4D2 uproar fading away was a sad thing for gaming. Not being a mindless consumer does not make you a whiny fanboy. We probably wouldn't have gotten Crash Course if it wasn't for the Whiny Fanboys anyway.

I don't care how awesome L4D2 is because I made a commitment that I woiuld not purchase the game at full price. This is called having principles, and when you lap up anything a particular company gives you, you have no standards.

heGzy

downloading this off steam now, cant wait to get playing it, 35 mins left and counting

:D

Add me on steam if ya fancy a game.... Hegio!:cool:

koneko

It's a better game than L4D1.

If people want to find a reason to cry like little babies, they will. They're missing out on a great great game though. Their loss, not mine.

L31mr0d

tentpole wrote: »

The only real issue is this game is not a sequel. It's an expansion pack with a full price tag.

I've seen this bandied around quite a bit. I tend to hear a lot of "Oh, it's L4D 1.5... *snort*"

The demo isn't a good bar to compare the 2 games. L4D2 feels and plays very different to the original. Graphically it is superior (I wish they'd used the levels from Swamp Fever in the demo to demonstrate just how different it is), and the gameplay has been given a complete overhaul. The levels are a lot more open plan, with random routes being blocked. In swamp fever especially, it is very easy to get turned around.

I was playing with some L4D veterans yesterday and we where still having a hard time in coop, trying to adjust to the pacing and the new infected. I also played with some veterans in versus and we where getting lost, for goodness sake, it was embarrassing, but shows how you really can't take anything with you from the original in terms of experience. In the original you couldn't get lost as the levels where made up of obvious linear corridors.

The new infected have really balanced out the game. You now have risks while moving, and also risks while standing still, it leads to a constant sense of uneasiness, which is something that wore off fast in the original once you figured out how effective closet squatting could be.

... and all this isn't even scratching how improved the weapons are, their various damage buffs and also the range of melee weapons, with the chainsaw perched on top of the pile.

Anyway, I've stopped listening to people who haven't played the game. It's not L4D 1.5, it's a bonafide sequel.