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Child Item

Create Competitive Advantage - Include Chinese in Leaving Cert

leonardjos

The facts speak for themselves (from various Wikipedia pages):

- Chinese Mandarin is the world's most spoken language by any measurement. Mandarin has 845 million first language speakers mainly in China, Taiwan and Singapore.

- This compares to the 2nd most spoken language being English with 328 million first language speakers.

- China is the third largest economy in the world after the US and Japan.

- China has had the fastest-growing major economy for the past 30 years with an average annual GDP growth rate above 10%.

- China is the most populous in the world with over 1.3 billion people, approximately one-fifth of the world's population.

- China's foreign exchange reserves have reached US$2.1 trillion, making it by far the world's largest.

- China is now the world's third biggest consumer of luxury goods with 12% of the global share.

- China currently has the most cell phone users in the world with over 700 million users in July 2009. It also has the largest number of internet and broadband users in the world.

I have been researching this and am surprised that Chinese is not a leaving certificate subject. AFAIK there is no plan or proposal to add Chinese to the Leaving Cert. I like to think that Irish people are adaptable and innovative, its just a pity that the Dept of Education are not! We could have a real opportunity to prepare our students for the business opportunities of the next decade.

From my quick research I have found that these are the current Languages for the Leaving Cert in their respective headings:

Modern Languages
Arabic
French
German
Irish
Italian
Japanese
Russian
Hebrew
Spanish
Russian

Non-curricular EU languages (available for students who meet certain criteria)
Bulgarian
Czech
Danish
Dutch
Estonian
Finnish
Modern Greek
Hungarian
Latvian
Lithuanian
Polish
Portuguese
Romanian
Slovakian
Swedish

Arts and Humanities
Ancient Greek
Latin

I must admit that I find it difficult to understand why our country's future talent have the option to study languages such as Latin, Arabic and Hebrew but not Chinese

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ednwireland

we'll all be learning it soon enough - dont you worry

Nody

English is now mandatory in all Chinese schools since a year or two, why would you want the Irish people to learn it then when they will not use it?

The only use for Chinese would be either due to outsourcing (the person speaks English anyway) or if you where to move there (very hard and a huge huge cultural shock).

If you want them to learn something useful such as Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Japanese etc. At least those are languages which they might end up using after all.

leonardjos

Nody wrote: »

The only use for Chinese would be either due to outsourcing (the person speaks English anyway) or if you where to move there (very hard and a huge huge cultural shock).

This is the historic way of viewing China, a place where you outsource manufacturing to get it done cheaper. That mindset is starting to change already. China is just starting to spend its vast foreign currency reserves. Its building highways, subways, windfarms, electric cars and nuclear power plants.

There are and will be lucrative opportunities for high tech firms and skilled professionals in all of that. The idea of 'moving there' is also a bit out of date. Professionals nowadays go where the work is and where the best money and opportunities are. They do not see business opportunites in terms of a one permanent relocation.

China will also be importing more and more, especially as their currency appreciates over the coming decade. There will be massive opportunities to export to China, think agri-business and seafood for instance.

Nody wrote: »

If you want them to learn something useful such as Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Japanese etc. At least those are languages which they might end up using after all.

I studied German and find that everyone in Germany just talks to me in English. Likewise the majority of Dutch people will have a very good level of English. I agree Spanish is also very useful. French has limited usefulness. Japan is a highly developed economy and the future growth potential is limited. I dont believe learning Russian would prove all that useful.

Remember that you would be adding Chinese as an option. No school would be obliged to teach it, and no student would be obliged to study it. But the opportunity would be there for interested schools and students.

Dannyboy83

Are any other major European countries teaching it?

When I was in school, I learned Irish, French & German.
Standard of teaching was appalling and I was generally a B student in most subjects but I didn't learn much of use tbh.
I couldn't imagine learning Chinese in Irish schools would be much different.

I think you need to go away and educate yourself in these things. The Irish education system just seems to be inept when it comes to languages. Admittedly the teachers were going on strike all the time when I was in Leaving Cert in 2000/2001, so things might have changed nowadays, but most of what I did in the leaving cert was self taught or from private grinds.
I never thought I was capable of speaking a foreign language. If anything, school just knocked my confidence in languages.

I speak/write Polish & Russian now to a rather reasonable standard, but thats because I had an interest myself and went away and taught myself.
TBH, I wanted to do a degree in Russian but you can't even do that outside Trinity.
You can't even find a Russian Language teacher in Cork, so I don't want to imagine what it would be like with Chinese grinds.

musky

great idea, about 20% of the worlds population speak it.

I feel that it would be taught badly though, just look at how the majority of us were 'taught' irish for about 12 years and cant speak it.

you need to learn a language in a realistic environment in order to grasp it.

leninbenjamin

it's a great idea on paper, but far too costly to implement in reality.

ceret

Nice idea, but would probably take about 10 to 20 years before it bears fruits.

Manach

In defence of Latin and Greek. These provide a framework for the scientific terms and phrases. Latin underpins key legal concepts. As for Greek, well after trying to learn how to decipher it: later-on picking one's way through software code becomes a lot less daunting

maninasia

Nody wrote: »

English is now mandatory in all Chinese schools since a year or two, why would you want the Irish people to learn it then when they will not use it?

The only use for Chinese would be either due to outsourcing (the person speaks English anyway) or if you where to move there (very hard and a huge huge cultural shock).

If you want them to learn something useful such as Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Russian, Japanese etc. At least those are languages which they might end up using after all.

This betrays your ignorance, China is already the world's biggest market for some industries such as energy, manufacturing and possibly soon for luxury goods. If you want to SELL into a market you'd better have some local language ability.....
Say an Irish company wants to export its good/services to China/Asian region, who does it choose to manage this, the person who speaks Chinese or the one that doesn't (all else being equal). This is a bad example given the dearth of Irish industry but for many UK/Germany/US companies the Chinese market is already a key part of their business revenue.

Not only that, China's influence on the world stage is growing, having Chinese will be a very useful tool for career advancement in the future. In fact Chinese can be used quite happily as a means of communication in Asia rather than English as Chinese tourists and businessmen are becoming ubiquitous and there are large numbers of ethnic Chinese worldwide. Do you think it is easier to be understood in Japan in English when shopping/eating? Wrong, it is much easier to find somebody who speaks Chinese! In addition Chinese tourists are quickly becoming the largest contribution to tourism coffers among non-EU tourists into Europe, i.e., if you want to work in tourism it would be a good idea to learn at least some Chinese.

Learning Chinese to a high level is not easy, but getting a good start in it in school will give any student an excellent leg up in life.

Amhran Nua

leonardjos wrote: »

The facts speak for themselves (from various Wikipedia pages):
- Chinese Mandarin is the world's most spoken language by any measurement.

Except for being the most widely spoken.

maninasia wrote: »

This betrays your ignorance, China is already the world's biggest market for some industries such as energy, manufacturing and possibly soon for luxury goods.

Getting into that market is a different story though. China dangles its billion strong market in front of western companies but the reality is you won't get in without giving up most of your competitive advantage / technology / going halves with a government minister. The beaurocrats have been falling over each other lately in a rush to be the one who regulates games like WoW, they aren't doing so because they enjoy work.

maninasia wrote: »

In fact Chinese can be used quite happily as a means of communication in Asia rather than English

I've travelled fairly extensively in Asia, and in no way is this the case. The lingua franca is English, and will probably remain so for quite some time.

maninasia wrote: »

Learning Chinese to a high level is not easy, but getting a good start in it in school will give any student an excellent leg up in life.

To be honest China's "benign dictatorship" model of government has a shelf life that ends when they either have a large middle class or run into financial trouble. I don't underestimate the Chinese, and I have a great respect for the individual people and their traditions, or whatever Mao left of them, but when you have organs from executed prisoners being sold on to give one particularly grisly example, you know it can't continue.

irishultra

we should ask our chinese friends in ireland to grow as they will have a very important part to play in ireland. i hear people go on about utilising the diaspora but what about the potential like chinese irish will have?

digiology

leninbenjamin wrote: »

it's a great idea on paper, but far too costly to implement in reality.

It could replace Irish.

maninasia

There are huge amounts of Chinese tourists starting to travel, their favoured destinations will be in Asia and Europe, therefore most tourist destinations will have Chinese speaking staff on their books soon if not already. This is already the case in Japan, Thailand, Korea etc. Of course many people speak English too. Thailand, Vietnam, Korea, Indonesia all send 100,00s of students to China and Taiwan annually to learn Chinese.

Don't be too pessimistic, China is a country that will change over time, if Irish companies want to succeed globally they will have a lot of interaction with this market, they should grab the opportunity instead of being afraid of the competition. China is not as difficult to sell into as previously stated, if you have a leading product/service you will have a chance to make money there, just like anywhere you need to have the right strategy.

Learning Chinese to a high level isn't easy, however it should be a choice on the leaving cert. curriculum to allow students who are interested to get a good start. To completely ignore Chinese in favour of dead languages is absolutely ridiculous! What's the point of education then?

You are bringing your objections to their politics as a reason not to learn a language, doesn't compute to me. I didn't say I like the political system either but it will change over time. It's not like Koreans love China, but they know what is important for career success.

Amhran Nua

maninasia wrote: »

There are huge amounts of Chinese tourists starting to travel, their favoured destinations will be in Asia and Europe, therefore most tourist destinations will have Chinese speaking staff on their books soon if not already.

Language differences are not usually a major factor in tourism though. They are a factor, but not a crucial one.

maninasia wrote: »

if Irish companies want to succeed globally they will have a lot of interaction with this market, they should grab the opportunity instead of being afraid of the competition. China is not as difficult to sell into as previously stated, if you have a leading product/service you will have a chance to make money there, just like anywhere you need to have the right strategy.

If you have a leading product you have a two year statute of limitations on IP violations, and thats from when the courts there think you should have been aware of it. Technology sharing is a central part of any investment in China, and its set up in a way that ensures the maximum benefit for the Chinese state. And why not, fair play to them for protecting their own markets, but its not the valuable playing field many think it is.

maninasia wrote: »

To completely ignore Chinese in favour of dead languages is absolutely ridiculous!

So you would favour the removal of the national language in favour of Chinese? Also Irish is the everyday language in the Gaeltacht areas, its far from dead.

maninasia wrote: »

You are bringing your objections to their politics as a reason not to learn a language, doesn't compute to me.

Chinese is a beautiful language, but the state is a pretty ugly operation.

China 'running illegal prisons'

China is running a number of unlawful detention centres in which its citizens can be kept for months, according to campaign group Human Rights Watch.

It says these centres - known as black jails - are often in state-run hotels, nursing homes or psychiatric hospitals.

Among those detained are ordinary people who have travelled to Beijing to report local injustices.

Officials have denied such jails exist, despite earlier reports on them in international and Chinese state media.

'Punched and kicked'

The human rights group report, entitled An Alleyway in Hell, says ordinary people are often abducted off the streets and taken to illegal detention centres.

They are sometimes stripped of their possessions, beaten and given no information about why they have been detained.

The existence of black jails in the heart of Beijing makes a mockery of the Chinese government's rhetoric on improving human rights and respecting the rule of law.

Human Rights Watch said it collected information for the report by interviewing 38 detainees earlier this year.

"I asked why they were detaining me, and as a group [the guards] came in and punched and kicked me and said they wanted to kill me," one former detainee told the group.

"I loudly cried for help and they stopped but from then on I didn't dare [risk another beating]."

Many of those held are petitioners, people who travel to Beijing to present their complaints to the State Bureau for Letters and Calls.

This national government department is supposed to help ordinary people across the country redress their grievances.

But some petitioners are detained by plain clothes security officers when they arrive in Beijing.

Their politics reflect the long term sustainability of the Chinese state, and in my opinion its difficult to foresee it lasting long in its current form.

leonardjos

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So you would favour the removal of the national language in favour of Chinese? Also Irish is the everyday language in the Gaeltacht areas, its far from dead.

Ancient Greek & Latin are on the Leaving Cert and are both effectively dead even though they have their merits culturally. I wouldnt favour removing Irish.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Chinese is a beautiful language, but the state is a pretty ugly operation.

Their politics reflect the long term sustainability of the Chinese state, and in my opinion its difficult to foresee it lasting long in its current form.

You could find equally disturbing reports about many other countries including the US (eg. renditions, water-boarding, torture, capital punishment, over-crowded jails, police brutality etc).

The argument for learning Chinese is related to economic reasons. Human rights issues are not really relevant IMO.

Amhran Nua

leonardjos wrote: »

Ancient Greek & Latin are on the Leaving Cert and are both effectively dead even though they have their merits culturally. I wouldnt favour removing Irish.

Ah I see, that makes sense alright.

leonardjos wrote: »

The argument for learning Chinese is related to economic reasons. Human rights issues are not really relevant IMO.

This assumes that there isn't going to be a backlash from the impoverished majority in China due to these human rights abuses, which will impact directly on the mid term economic and international strength of the country. The continued prosperity of China is the main reason that we haven't already seen such a backlash, if that falters for too long, all bets are off. Again, this is purely speculation on future conditions.

Flamed Diving

leonardjos wrote: »

The facts speak for themselves (from various Wikipedia pages):

Do they?

leonardjos wrote: »

- Chinese Mandarin is the world's most spoken language by any measurement. Mandarin has 845 million first language speakers mainly in China, Taiwan and Singapore.

Fair enough. Not exactly an achievement, is it?

leonardjos wrote: »

- This compares to the 2nd most spoken language being English with 328 million first language speakers.

Now, that is an incredibly successful language. Do you understand why this is impressive and not the above?

leonardjos wrote: »

- China is the third largest economy in the world after the US and Japan.

Sounds impressive, doesn't it? Is there some hidden factor at work here perhaps?

leonardjos wrote: »

- China has had the fastest-growing major economy for the past 30 years with an average annual GDP growth rate above 10%.

Now this is their great achievement. No doubt.

leonardjos wrote: »

- China is the most populous in the world with over 1.3 billion people, approximately one-fifth of the world's population.

Ah, here we go. Much of the reason why so many of these statistics looked great, and also the reason why their impressive 3rd in the world GDP figure plummets to 104th when weighted per capita, now they rank under Cape Verde.

leonardjos wrote: »

- China's foreign exchange reserves have reached US$2.1 trillion, making it by far the world's largest.

This is quite a precarious position. This is the equivalent of saying you hold the most IOU's in the neighbourhood, with the value of these dropping everytime your friend Sam prints another one.

leonardjos wrote: »

- China is now the world's third biggest consumer of luxury goods with 12% of the global share.

Ok. Why is this again?

leonardjos wrote: »

- China currently has the most cell phone users in the world with over 700 million users in July 2009. It also has the largest number of internet and broadband users in the world.

As above.

gollem_1975

slightly OT but still of some interest : i was advised that you can get free chinese lessons at http://chinesepod.com/.

haven't tried them myself mind you.

Dannyboy83

I think the point about Chinese being the most widely spoken is incorrect.
Its merely the most widely spoken first language.

English is the most widely spoken language, when first and subsequent speakers are included.

Besides, English is the language of Aviation, IT, Business, Hollywood, etc. etc.
English holds substantially more power than Chinese. For the moment at least.

leonardjos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Now, that is an incredibly successful language. Do you understand why this is impressive and not the above?

I didn't realise we were having a popularity contest for the world's most impressive language. If we were, I'd agree English would win it. We already speak English so we've got that one covered.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ah, here we go. Much of the reason why so many of these statistics looked great, and also the reason why their impressive 3rd in the world GDP figure plummets to 104th when weighted per capita, now they rank under Cape Verde.

The CIA World Factbook column in the same page you reference above shows Ireland as having the 5th highest GDP per capita in the world. I'm sure this statistic will come as welcome cheer to the people reading boards. Dont worry, we're at the top of the world dont you know! :rolleyes:

It also lists Macau (part of China) as number 21, level with the UK. Singapore, being majority Chinese speaking, comes in at 24 ahead of Japan. Hong Kong, also part of China, comes in at 29, level with New Zealand. Taiwan, also Chinese speaking, comes in at a respectable 43, level with oil rich Saudi Arabia.

And yes the above statistic that China is the 3rd largest economy in the world is no less valid. When you're trying to sell things you generally aim for the largest fastest growing markets.

Lockstep

To be fair, classroom based learning is almost useless.

I learnt Dutch not from the useless classroom module but from working in a bar. Ditto for French. SPent years in the classroom, was utter ****e until I had to speak it in Brussels.

Flamed Diving

leonardjos wrote: »

I didn't realise we were having a popularity contest for the world's most impressive language. If we were, I'd agree English would win it. We already speak English so we've got that one covered.

The CIA World Factbook column in the same page you reference above shows Ireland as having the 5th highest GDP per capita in the world. I'm sure this statistic will come as welcome cheer to the people reading boards. Dont worry, we're at the top of the world dont you know! :rolleyes:

It also lists Macau (part of China) as number 21, level with the UK. Singapore, being majority Chinese speaking, comes in at 24 ahead of Japan. Hong Kong, also part of China, comes in at 29, level with New Zealand. Taiwan, also Chinese speaking, comes in at a respectable 43, level with oil rich Saudi Arabia.

And yes the above statistic that China is the 3rd largest economy in the world is no less valid. When you're trying to sell things you generally aim for the largest fastest growing markets.

There is a vastness of ingorance in this post that I would be more than willing to cure, if only you didn't wear it as a badge of pride.

Shame.

For the mods.

OMD

This type of argument comes along every so often. In early eighties it was everyone should learn German, then Japanese, then Russian, now chinese.

Flamed Diving

A cautionary tale, from last years Nobel Prize winner in Economics.

http://media.ft.com/cms/b8268ffe-7572-11db-aea1-0000779e2340.pdf

Dannyboy83

OMD wrote: »

This type of argument comes along every so often. In early eighties it was everyone should learn German, then Japanese, then Russian, now chinese.

Besides, most Irish people emigrate to English speaking countries anyway.
(I don't have a link for that tho:D)

leonardjos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

A cautionary tale, from last years Nobel Prize winner in Economics.

http://media.ft.com/cms/b8268ffe-7572-11db-aea1-0000779e2340.pdf

This article was written in 1994 and merely states that booming economies cannot keep booming forever, that eventually the rate of growth will moderate.

Flamed Diving wrote:

There is a vastness of ingorance in this post that I would be more than willing to cure, if only you didn't wear it as a badge of pride.

Shame.

For the mods.

Everybody knows what ignorance means, no need for the link. I dont see how quoting favourable statistics from the very same page that was used to quote an unfavourable statistic represents ignorance. In case you couldn't tell, my tone was tongue-in-cheek i.e. you can find a statistic to back up any argument.

I dont understand the over-reaction on this thread. Nobody is saying that China is going to take over the world, or that China is an economy or country that we should model ourselves on. Nobody is saying that we should all have to learn Chinese, or consider emigrating to China.

The point put forward was that Chinese is a major world language. We have a large number of other languages on the Leaving Cert. Surely we should consider adding Chinese in this context. Like all languages, schools and students would have the option to teach/study it if they were interested.

Flamed Diving

All I was addressing were your stylised facts. Most of which were superfluous and misguiding to the untrained eye.

leonardjos

It might be useful to highlight a few practical examples of these opportunities for the Irish economy:

Chinese Company CIRS to Establish EU Headquarters in Dundalk with the Creation of 26 Jobs 24/09/09

Chinese company with headquarters in Hangzhou, one of China’s leading cities, is setting up its EU Headquarters at Finnabair Business Park in Dundalk, Co. Louth. The company is anticipated to employ up to 26 high-level positions over the next twelve months, for which it will recruit science graduates. The investment is supported by Government through IDA Ireland.

In 2006, IDA Ireland established its office in Shanghai to unlock a gateway for Chinese companies to expand and develop their businesses in Europe.

Jim Wei, Director, CIRS Ireland, said “CIRS is already a world leader in providing these services from our HQ in Hangzhou. REACH and the EU market is a key new market for us, and having weighed up the options in location, we believe that locating our European base in Ireland is very strategic, based on the skills sets of Ireland’s workforce, as well as the support shown to us by government and the business community.”

Finfacts Article on FDI 05/11/08

Considering the potential for Chinese investment in Ireland, Jim O'Hara, General Manager, Intel Ireland said, "A great opportunity for Ireland is to become a turn-key solution to enter Europe for Chinese firms. Ireland is very well versed in dealing with Europe. We could turn this into a massive opportunity. Ireland only needs a very small piece of the worldwide FDI pie to be very successful. We can offer expertise to China and many others to enter Europe, to establish their brands and gain financial, IP and legal support.

It's well known that Singapore and Hong Kong, due to their colonial English histories, are the established locations where Western multi-nationals base their Asian operations.

Chinese companies are increasing their direct exports to other countries including European. This is a shift away from Western companies simply sourcing their manufacturing from China. To successfully export to Europe they will need a European base, as many American companies already have in Ireland. It's the tried and tested Irish growth model, we just have to roll it out to investors from new countries.

Just one example - Lenovo, a Chinese multinational, now the fourth largest seller of personal computers in the world. Lenovo acquired the former IBM PC Company Division, which marketed the ThinkPad line of notebook PCs, in 2005 for approximately $1.75 billion. They have a presense in Asia, Japan and the US but none in Europe yet. People are wondering where the next Dell will come from for Ireland. This is where the next opportunities are for the Irish computing sector IMO. (Of course I'm referring to a sales, marketing, legal, tax and logistics HQ not a manufacturing base).

Another example in the news today UL strikes major US$1m licensing deal with chip giant AMD

In what is being seen as a major endorsement of research in Ireland, AMD has been granted a development licence by the University of Limerick to customise the micro cooler technology for its next-generation products, while Asia Vital Components (AVC), the world’s largest supplier of coolers for central processing units (CPUs) and micro-chip modules (MCMs), has signed a worldwide, non-exclusive licence to make and sell the university’s micro cooler.

Up to 50 million ‘micro coolers’ will initially be required, and the University of Limerick will benefit from potential license revenues in excess of US$1m. Future micro cooler volumes could eventually exceed hundreds of millions, the university said.

Asia Vital Components (AVC) is a Taiwan based multinational. This a is hi-tech R&D investment deal between an Irish university and Chinese-speaking company. It's an example of the business opportunities that are out there.

“We’re very excited about this new technology. In terms of personal electronic devices of all kinds, the world is moving towards smaller sizes and greater power efficiency. The team at Stokes Institute [UL] have designed a cooling technology that can make a huge impact on the ability of manufacturers to deliver these attributes at reduced cost,” said Steve Huang, Director of Sales at AVC.

maninasia

A lot of Irish see China as a competitor or somehow scary place. While it could do with a good dose of democracy and human rights it is a fact that China is going to be hugely important in the coming decades. You either take advantage of that or not...the point is don't be afraid of things you don't know much about. Visit China and see for yourselves. The same can be said for the whole of Asia. The re-emergence of Asia on the world scene is not a bad thing, how many Asian countries started a war of aggression except for Japan...now let's think about Western countries. Let's look at these things objectively.

The example of Taiwan is a good point. Ireland doesn't have any proper representative office in Taiwan while most European countries do because they know Taiwanese students, Taiwanese tourists and Taiwanese companies spending power and technology has huge potential. Taiwan's economy alone (in real traded goods) is easily 10 times the size of Ireland producing many world leading products yet most people in Ireland probably think Taiwan is a poor country...lack of vision and understanding in not fully promoting links with Asian countries.

Flamed Diving

maninasia wrote: »

Taiwan's economy alone (in real traded goods) is easily 10 times the size of Ireland.

By what measure? Back up your facts.