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Sligo to belfast railway

T Corolla

Does anyone on this forum believe there is a case for a rail link from Sligo to Belfast via Enniskillen,Dungannon. I have travelled the route on a couple of occasions and found it to be a busy road. In the past was there a rail link and do people feel that there is population. According to sources Enniskillen has a population of 13,600 Dungannon 47,800. The journey time by road is 2hrs 45 mins.

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bobcar61

I never realised Dungannon had a population of that size. I wouldn't have thought the route would be too popular, you can bet there won't be a rail link anytime soon.

Mint Sauce

if anything it would be a line to derry via letterkenny linking up with the derry belfast line

but with the way the WRC is going and now the phase going as far as sligo now shelfed cant see any new link up with NI railways happening any time soon

[Deleted User]

I would love there to be a rail service from Sligo to Enniskillen or Sligo to Belfast.

Madge

magnumlady wrote: »

I would love there to be a rail service from Sligo to Enniskillen.

+1
but there's a bus that goes up from the station mid-morning it's v handy

[Deleted User]

Madge wrote: »

+1
but there's a bus that goes up from the station mid-morning it's v handy

I wouldn't like to go on the bus, I don't like them at all.

T Corolla

Correction in relation to the population of Dungannon it is 11,500 not 47,500

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungannon

westtip

OP this is pie in the sky transport thinking along the lines of the Western Rail Corridor - what we desperately need is a decent road from Sligo to Belfast - in fact a decent road from Sligo straddling the border running as an east west/west east corridor across the country to Dundalk Newry more like - this would effectively complete a grid of road corridors across the country - the demand for train services from Sligo/Enniskillen/Dungannon/Belfast would be minimal - like it or not - roads is the real need for transport infrastructure - upon which you can then deliver express bus services, good supply chain management and to facilitate private cars.

westtip

irish-stew wrote: »

if anything it would be a line to derry via letterkenny linking up with the derry belfast line

but with the way the WRC is going and now the phase going as far as sligo now shelfed cant see any new link up with NI railways happening any time soon

The section to sligo (Claremorris/collooney section) was never planned and was never part of Transport 21 - where did you get that from West on Track fantasy land?

T Corolla

IMO a railway line should be installed before a dualcarriage way is built. If the land is there and is in public ownership as is the case with the WRC (not interested in bringing the WRC into this thread) it should be opened up to use. Ireland can only afford so many dualcarriageways and in the current envoirment and railways are cheaper to build. Even if it pays for itself in terms of patronage and maintenance and returns nothing to the exchequer it is better than building overpriced dualcarriageways that private operators will cream profits of for years. Prior to T21 there were the single lane carriageways that were uncapable of the volume of traffic that was on them. This was due to poor rail services that were running on 1950's standard tracks with 1950' s standard trains. The nearest line to me is Dublin-Sligo and there is enough land to double track that entire way to Sligo. Even if the current service of two hourly all day was provided the trains would be capable of speeds equilivent to that of dualcarriageways the land was already publically owned and the level of CO2 immisions would be greatly reduced. Building more roads encorages more cars onto the roads and increases CO2 immisions. In the case of WRC the line from Limerick to Galway is needed as the road is chockablock with cars seven days a week. The only fault I have with the Limerick to Galway line is the 50mph speed limit that is going to limit its growth and give it more reason to not to be viable. I feel that it should have been doubled track all the way to Galway and instead of the railcars that are not the most comfortable the should provide a Intercity service from Cork to Galway with the double tracking it would make the journey in less than three hours with an average speed of 70mph thus making it viablefrom end to end. I feel that there should be a shift from cars back to buses and trains and with the impending carbon tax hopefully people will drive less and start to use buses and trains more. One other point I would like to add is anywhere the railways run through the towns are buzzing from an economic perspective and generally attract more employment and the north west could do with its fair share of jobs as any part of the country. A rail link from Sligo to Belfast would be inline with the Dublin to Sligo line and would benefit all the counties around it

tuppence

There ws a need before
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sligo,_Leitrim_and_Northern_Counties_Railway

Its an awful shame that these lines werent kept and even when we had the money the government thinking (in league with the construction industry imo) was to fixate on roads. This sacraficed progressing a rail transport strategy that could have been essentially greener, more tourist friendly, didnt reinforce urban sprawl, less light pollution. Large freight could also been transported by rail. Essentially investing in public transport infrastructure could have been an investment for everyones future.

Mint Sauce

westtip wrote: »

The section to sligo (Claremorris/collooney section) was never planned and was never part of Transport 21 - where did you get that from West on Track fantasy land?

i stand corrected, i now understand line was to be preserved

T Corolla

Would there be a case to open Sligo-Belfast and Clairemorris to Collooney for freight transport. Is there many lorries that would comes from Belfast to Limerick. I do'nt see these railways as commuter railways but in terms of freight and tourist usage.

Nostradamus

T Corolla wrote: »

Does anyone on this forum believe there is a case for a rail link from Sligo to Belfast via Enniskillen,Dungannon. I have travelled the route on a couple of occasions and found it to be a busy road. In the past was there a rail link and do people feel that there is population. According to sources Enniskillen has a population of 13,600 Dungannon 47,800. The journey time by road is 2hrs 45 mins.

Never happpen and no reason why it should either.

T Corolla

Nostradamus are you in favor of dualcarriageways that costs far more than a railway and are not envoirmentally friendly. I believe there is a case if the railway from Clairemorris to Sligo was connected to provide a mix of Intercity and freight transport from the North to the West considering the current railways are chockablock with traffic. I feel in terms of rail infrastructure we need to provide rail links that do'nt include passing through Dublin all the time

Nostradamus

T Corolla wrote: »

Nostradamus are you in favor of dualcarriageways that costs far more than a railway and are not envoirmentally friendly.

Yes, because if you put bus SERVICES on dualcarriageways they can carry millions of more people a years than a reopened tramway which was a terminal commercial failure during it 90 years of operation when the only transport alternative was a donkey cart.

The route of the Sligo, Leitrim and Northern Counties Railway was obliterated years ago. There is almost nothing left. It also never served Sligo. It served Coolooney.

T Corolla wrote: »

I believe there is a case if the railway from Clairemorris to Sligo was connected to provide a mix of Intercity and freight transport from the North to the West considering the current railways are chockablock with traffic. I feel in terms of rail infrastructure we need to provide rail links that do'nt include passing through Dublin all the time

I beleive you are wrong and I know your dream won't ever come true because there is no reason why it should. That line also never served Sligo, it served Coolooney. It never even served Galway - just Athenry.

Sligo is a small branch line town of 19,000 people. Claremorris is a village. All there is in between is Tubbercurry which is 2,000 people and about 30 people use the bus a day there.

I know because I live in Tubbercurry and have eyeballs in the front of my head.

Sligo is not big enough to sustain its exsisting railway service (which is a disaster in terms of passenger numbers) beacause of horrible planning and terrible population density. Stop blaming Dublin and start blaming local planning guidelines which destroyed the countryside with one-off houses rather than building up the densitity of the Sligos, Tubbercurrys and Claremorrises.

The most sustainable thing the West could of done from every level from transport to tourism to employment was to build up the larger towns and cities. Instead we got thousands of Roadstone Cavity Block Mansions filling the most scenic locations while the towns and cities stagnated.

Blame your local TD's, Developers (often one and the same) and Planning Officials. Dublin has nothing to do with this.

Railways need poplation desisty to be viable and sustainable. This is a basic fact. No people, no commuters no trackie.

I am sorry, it would be nice to have all these railway lines opened again. But in a country were people refuse to live in sustainable commnities they have no chance. It's a shame really, as it breaks my heart to see vast swathes of the North West beautiful landscape destroyed with half finished, one off houses and country roads packed with traffic and then to hear someone bring up the idea of reopening old rural railway lines when everything that could of possibly have been done to destroy rail transport outside Dublin was gleefully undertaken and implemented by the same chancers who now think it is a great idea when it's about 20 years too late.

The country is also broke and things like cancer services are more important tothe NorthWest than crayons lines on OS maps.

westtip

T Corolla wrote: »

Nostradamus are you in favor of dualcarriageways that costs far more than a railway and are not envoirmentally friendly. I believe there is a case if the railway from Clairemorris to Sligo was connected to provide a mix of Intercity and freight transport from the North to the West considering the current railways are chockablock with traffic. I feel in terms of rail infrastructure we need to provide rail links that do'nt include passing through Dublin all the time

And pray tell me how many passengers will use this fantasy railway line? Is a diesel railcar trundling slowly thro' the North west of Ireland with 3 passengers on board environmentally friendly? Nostradamus said it all is his post - those of us that have debated this whole issue at length on the WRC thread would refer you to all the arguments on that thread. Wake up - the west of Ireland is not going to get a branch line all of its own - there simply is not the critical mass of people to use it....it ain't going to happen and it is a complete waste of energy to campaign or even think about - Focus on what is achievable for the west.

T Corolla

Sligo is not big enough to sustain its exsisting railway service (which is a disaster in terms of passenger numbers) beacause of horrible planning and terrible population density. Stop blaming Dublin and start blaming local planning guidelines which destroyed the countryside with one-off houses rather than building up the densitity of the Sligos, Tubbercurrys and Claremorrises.

The most sustainable thing the West could of done from every level from transport to tourism to employment was to build up the larger towns and cities. Instead we got thousands of Roadstone Cavity Block Mansions filling the most scenic locations while the towns and cities stagnated.

Blame your local TD's, Developers (often one and the same) and Planning Officials. Dublin has nothing to do with this.

Railways need poplation desisty to be viable and sustainable. This is a basic fact. No people, no commuters no trackie.

I am sorry, it would be nice to have all these railway lines opened again. But in a country were people refuse to live in sustainable commnities they have no chance. It's a shame really, as it breaks my heart to see vast swathes of the North West beautiful landscape destroyed with half finished, one off houses and country roads packed with traffic and then to hear someone bring up the idea of reopening old rural railway lines when everything that could of possibly have been done to destroy rail transport outside Dublin was gleefully undertaken and implemented by the same chancers who now think it is a great idea when it's about 20 years too late.

The country is also broke and things like cancer services are more important tothe NorthWest than crayons lines on OS maps.[/quote]

I agree with everything you are saying espically where one off houses have destoried beautifaul scenry. You obviously live in the region in question and more more about it than I do. In your heart of hearts could you see a case for freight traffic using such railways. I really cant understand why so many lorries need to be used when it would be cost effective to transport goods by rail. In the midland the main train stations have large yards that were used in times gone by for goods and now CIE is either piling up tracks on them or leaving them idle. It is a shame to waste them.

Nostradamus

T Corolla wrote: »

I agree with everything you are saying espically where one off houses have destoried beautifaul scenry. You obviously live in the region in question and more more about it than I do. In your heart of hearts could you see a case for freight traffic using such railways.

[/QUOTE]

Yes the carrying of timber is ideal for rail freight and if some mining operation opened near a old closed rail line then it should be reopened and the ore and such put on trains if possible.

You do not need to reopen any lines to carry timber as it's easy and makes sense to take logs from the forest to the railhead by truck and this is very achievable with the current network. No new lines needed.

T Corolla wrote: »

I really cant understand why so many lorries need to be used when it would be cost effective to transport goods by rail. In the midland the main train stations have large yards that were used in times gone by for goods and now CIE is either piling up tracks on them or leaving them idle. It is a shame to waste them.

CIE are a travesty. They spent almost 90% of their energy during the Celtic Tiger years developing their property protfolio and trucking industry while they destroyed rail yards nationwide. Granted, most of these rail yards were too big for modern railfreight, but they could of maintained a freight siding here and there. But they were into building offices and apartments. They still are, incredibly enough!

Again, if the towns and cities were not disolved into the countryside a rail freight system would be more viable. Like everything else.

There is only one closed railway line in Ireland which needs to be reopened and that's the Dublin to Navan line which should of been up and running 5 years ago. Apart from that, reopening the Athlone-Mullingar line would be a very good idea for lots of reasons. All the other closed rail lines in the country especially the northern Western Rail Corridor would make fantastic walking and cycling trails.

T Corolla

Yes the carrying of timber is ideal for rail freight and if some mining operation opened near a old closed rail line then it should be reopened and the ore and such put on trains if possible.

You do not need to reopen any lines to carry timber as it's easy and makes sense to take logs from the forest to the railhead by truck and this is very achievable with the current network. No new lines needed.

CIE are a travesty. They spent almost 90% of their energy during the Celtic Tiger years developing their property protfolio and trucking industry while they destroyed rail yards nationwide. Granted, most of these rail yards were too big for modern railfreight, but they could of maintained a freight siding here and there. But they were into building offices and apartments. They still are, incredibly enough!

Again, if the towns and cities were not disolved into the countryside a rail freight system would be more viable. Like everything else.

There is only one closed railway line in Ireland which needs to be reopened and that's the Dublin to Navan line which should of been up and running 5 years ago. Apart from that, reopening the Athlone-Mullingar line would be a very good idea for lots of reasons. All the other closed rail lines in the country especially the northern Western Rail Corridor would make fantastic walking and cycling trails.[/quote]

Are you in favor of the Athlone to Mullingar line as well. I definetly think there is a case to open this open and definetly Dublin to Navan. I can never understand why the Dublin to Navan was ever closed. I have walked the Mullingar to Athlone line and was surprised how straight the line is and there are not many crossings on its route. I would be happy to see it used for freight services as it is too valuable to be left in the state it is. I am glad to see the Navan railway is going to be opened in full and the last I heard of an opening date was 2012 but with the cureent economic climate i say 2015 will be more likely

westtip

TC - trying to read your posts but you need to master the quote button for posting so that the post quotes like the ones you have from Nosty appear separate within your post - Anyway all that aside not sure this part of the forum is where you're going to find all the commentators you want on railway re-openings etc try transport and commuting and infrastructure, but really you are bashing your head against a wall re railway openings unless you want to devote your entire life to the subject like the zealots of WOT, Nosty really has said it as it is - The Navan line and possibly the athlone mullingar line and then get IE to deliver good services on the system in place - we simply are not going to return to a 19th century network of railway lines in ireland, there is however massive potential for both tourism and public health in what nosty says about using the old alignments for public footpaths and cycleways - unfortunately it appears the only way this can be done is by constant public campaigning at a local level - Governments should govern - and this opportunity should be driven from the top, so for example on my pet subject the northern section of the WRC Claremorris - Collooney the government should just say - this is going to be a walkway/cylceway and we are going to pay to get it done (It could be done for about 5 million - for a 45 mile walking and cycling track). Huge amounts have been written on this subject (walking and cycling tracks for old railways) but it all gets done in a very piecemeal way.

Belfast - Sligo Rail line - it won't happen so don't waste your energy

Collooney - Claremorris railway line - ditto.

Sligo - Derry railway line - ditto

None of these things will ever happen and actually for good reason - they are not needed; the freight argument is very limited from the northwest - how much freight would you need to guarentee for a period of 50 years to justify opening these rail lines?

As long distance trailways/greenways/linear parks/cycleways/pathways they would add a great deal to tourism infrastructure and for the locals living near these facilities they would improve public health as they would encourage walking and cycling as an activity;

Really you have to accept the facts of life - good quality road corridors drive (sic) commercial development and safe roads save lives (in two ways - they reduce RTA fatalities and they bring specialist units closer in terms of time to populations removed from large urban facilities). The N4 is pretty well developed to Sligo and more will happen on this arterial route - The critical thing for Sligo is the N17/15 Atlantic Road corridor development and a better cross border route to the north east - A southern bypass of Enniskillen and good road to Belfast/Newry is far more important than a rail line. If the road from Belfast to Sligo was a seamless safe DC avoiding all towns - this would place Sligo within an hour and 45 mins of Belfast (about 100 miles is very doable in this time on safe DC) - this would open up new tourist opportunities for the area to attract more visitors from the second largest urban area and city on the island, it would make Sligo a much easier short break (ie weekend) destination for visitors from the east coast - increasing off peak tourism etc and would give residents of the north west better access to what large urban areas have to offer - it would be win win for both sides of the country.

Don't waste your energy on campaigning for lost causes like 19th century railway lines re-opening.

T Corolla

westtip wrote: »

TC - trying to read your posts but you need to master the quote button for posting so that the post quotes like the ones you have from Nosty appear separate within your post - Anyway all that aside not sure this part of the forum is where you're going to find all the commentators you want on railway re-openings etc try transport and commuting and infrastructure, but really you are bashing your head against a wall re railway openings unless you want to devote your entire life to the subject like the zealots of WOT, Nosty really has said it as it is - The Navan line and possibly the athlone mullingar line and then get IE to deliver good services on the system in place - we simply are not going to return to a 19th century network of railway lines in ireland, there is however massive potential for both tourism and public health in what nosty says about using the old alignments for public footpaths and cycleways - unfortunately it appears the only way this can be done is by constant public campaigning at a local level - Governments should govern - and this opportunity should be driven from the top, so for example on my pet subject the northern section of the WRC Claremorris - Collooney the government should just say - this is going to be a walkway/cylceway and we are going to pay to get it done (It could be done for about 5 million - for a 45 mile walking and cycling track). Huge amounts have been written on this subject (walking and cycling tracks for old railways) but it all gets done in a very piecemeal way.

Belfast - Sligo Rail line - it won't happen so don't waste your energy

Collooney - Claremorris railway line - ditto.

Sligo - Derry railway line - ditto

None of these things will ever happen and actually for good reason - they are not needed; the freight argument is very limited from the northwest - how much freight would you need to guarentee for a period of 50 years to justify opening these rail lines?

As long distance trailways/greenways/linear parks/cycleways/pathways they would add a great deal to tourism infrastructure and for the locals living near these facilities they would improve public health as they would encourage walking and cycling as an activity;

Really you have to accept the facts of life - good quality road corridors drive (sic) commercial development and safe roads save lives (in two ways - they reduce RTA fatalities and they bring specialist units closer in terms of time to populations removed from large urban facilities). The N4 is pretty well developed to Sligo and more will happen on this arterial route - The critical thing for Sligo is the N17/15 Atlantic Road corridor development and a better cross border route to the north east - A southern bypass of Enniskillen and good road to Belfast/Newry is far more important than a rail line. If the road from Belfast to Sligo was a seamless safe DC avoiding all towns - this would place Sligo within an hour and 45 mins of Belfast (about 100 miles is very doable in this time on safe DC) - this would open up new tourist opportunities for the area to attract more visitors from the second largest urban area and city on the island, it would make Sligo a much easier short break (ie weekend) destination for visitors from the east coast - increasing off peak tourism etc and would give residents of the north west better access to what large urban areas have to offer - it would be win win for both sides of the country.

Don't waste your energy on campaigning for lost causes like 19th century railway lines re-opening.

I come around to the reality that there is no case for a railway between Sligo and Belfast. Westip thank you for your opinions as I enjoy reading many of your threads in regards to the WRC. I am glad to see the Limerick to Galway line reinstated but it will no thrive with the 1hr 50 min journey time and a two railcars as it mode of transport.

Nostradamus

The thing is that economically if the northern half of the WRC was opened as a footpath/cycleway it would bring economic benefits alongs the entire lenght in a very real and tangible manner.

Just as an experiement my wife and I walked the line last weekend from the N17 level crossing just sound of Tubbercurry all the way to the old station At Collaney. Not only is the scenery stunning especially as you seem to be walking towards Knocknashee the whole way, but I counted 30 B&Bs within 50 meters of the course of the line.

Now just think of a train leaving Tubbercurry with 4 passengers, the next stop is Coolooney. How would that generate business to the areas it passed through?

Now consider during the summer months thousands of walkers, hikers and cyclists. They will stay at the B&Bs along the route and with our dodgy weather up here, can nip into a pub or coffee shop for a bit to eat and so on. The route is teaming with wildlife -we saw deer, kesterls and a white tailed eagles. During the summer the wildflowers are stunning. What's the problem?

Frankly in real economic terms its a no-brainer. Turning old rural railway lines into cycle/walkways spreads the economic and tourists benefits along the entire course of the line - compared to a 2/3 empty railcar which cost 300 Million Euro and all you get to see is a handful of grannies on free travel passes and the odd sexually excited trainspotter scribbling in his jotter.

cloneslad

have you driven from sligo to enniskillen lately? where the hell would they find the space to build a train track let alone a dual carraigeway without it costing obscene amounts of money? I think a train from enniskillen to belfast would work, but I don't think the one from sligo to enniskillen would be at all profitable. I have taken the bus that travels that route for years and it is rarely ever full, and I drive it now and the roads are never that busy to be honest. (with the exception of the build up of traffic you hit going into enniskillen on the sligo road about 12:30-1:30, but i never travel there at that time

westtip

cloneslad wrote: »

have you driven from sligo to enniskillen lately? where the hell would they find the space to build a train track let alone a dual carraigeway without it costing obscene amounts of money? I think a train from enniskillen to belfast would work, but I don't think the one from sligo to enniskillen would be at all profitable. I have taken the bus that travels that route for years and it is rarely ever full, and I drive it now and the roads are never that busy to be honest. (with the exception of the build up of traffic you hit going into enniskillen on the sligo road about 12:30-1:30, but i never travel there at that time

Cloneslad I wouldn't worry about it - I think the general consensus on this thread is that the whole idea of a sligo - Belfast (and indeed Enniskillen-Belfast) rail line is a dead duck; the road however does need improving - upgrading of the n16 to the border is essential - some work has been done on this road but it is probably not high on the agenda for the NRA, and TBH is not likely to happen for 10 years or more; DC may not be necessary based on traffic volumes but wide SC with hard shoulder and alignment changes like the stretch that has been done on the sligo side of Manorhamilton would probably be acceptable and doable. - there is more hope of work on this route being done on the other side of the border where medium to long term plans are in place for both a southern by-pass of Enniskillen and improving the road to Ballygawley (it will be DC to Belfast from Ballygawley at the end of this year); however a good quality seamless EAST - WEST road is needed across the border counties for the commercial development of a "border corridor" and as mentioned above it would open up more opportunities for tourism in the Sligo region.

BTW if you do this route on a regular basis - no doubt you already bypass Enniskillen to the south using the "rat run" via Black lion, Florence Court and cutting across country to Maguiresbridge - better than sitting in traffic either side of Enniskillen waiting for all us shoppers queuing up for cross border Asda shopping. - Actualy come to think of it one of the reasons the NRA won't improve the N16 to the border for a long time is to discourage us all from going shopping in the north!

cloneslad

westtip wrote: »

BTW if you do this route on a regular basis - no doubt you already bypass Enniskillen to the south using the "rat run" via Black lion, Florence Court and cutting across country to Maguiresbridge quote]

I hate that route, done it a few times before but to be honest i like the other route, I know it well, have travelled it for 7 years or so now and I live on the monaghan fermanagh border so I am used to the terrible road going from clones to newtown but from there to enniskillen is a good enough road.

I never really experience any traffic on the road cos, as i say i don't go into enniskillen from the sligo side at lunch time, that's when it's at its worst. I sometimes stop in asda myself and pick up a few things on the way home too, so i can't really complain about anybody else doing it.....except people filling 2-3 trolleys is quite excessive at times :eek:

Nostradamus

cloneslad wrote: »

I think a train from enniskillen to belfast would work, but I don't think the one from sligo to enniskillen would be at all profitable.

The only train lines in Ireland that make a profit are the Luas lines in Dublin.

You're idea is a good one, but impossible as the old routes which could of made this possible were torn up and built over decades ago. What happens is that the McGuckians of this world get off the bus at Dungannon and see that the old rail alingment is very clearly visable and they get all excited. What they fail to realise is that a couple of kms outside the bus depot the line is either buried under housing estates and motorways.

There never was a rail line ever between Sligo (Coolooney yes) and Enniskillen just as there never was a rail line between Sligo and Derry.

cloneslad

Oh, I know the line does not exist the whole way to Belfast, but what I was saying was it would be more useful to commuters to have an enniskillen - belfast line than sligo - enniskillen or belfast.

The buses go hourly from enniskillen and always have a good number of people on board, not to mention the number of cars travelling in that direction, plus the number of people using buses from the pick up points on the route.

The road from sligo to enniskillen is not bad enough yet to warrent large investment, they will probably wait till it detiorates before widening it. The old, don't fix it till it's broken rule will apply.

T Corolla

cloneslad wrote: »

Oh, I know the line does not exist the whole way to Belfast, but what I was saying was it would be more useful to commuters to have an enniskillen - belfast line than sligo - enniskillen or belfast.

The buses go hourly from enniskillen and always have a good number of people on board, not to mention the number of cars travelling in that direction, plus the number of people using buses from the pick up points on the route.

The road from sligo to enniskillen is not bad enough yet to warrent large investment, they will probably wait till it detiorates before widening it. The old, don't fix it till it's broken rule will apply.

The idea of enniskillen to belfast seems to be better than Sligo to Belfast