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[UPC] Cap and Fair Usage Policy

dave-higgz

Just got a letter in the door today informing me that I downloaded 358.05GB last month on my UPC 10mb Broadband.

They stated that even though my broadband cap is unlimited that there is a residential cap of 250GB per month.

There's no way I downloaded that much data. I have a windows home server which is constantly getting TV shows and movies but for me to have clocked up that much I would have had to download 1gb every 2 hours for an entire month!!!

Along with being threatened with disconnection, the usual lark, they also said that I might be automatically upgraded to their highest package, UPC broadband extreme (€79.99). I checked their website and along with there being no mention of a 250Gb cap there most certainly isn't a residential package that's 79.99. Will this be the anticipated 50mb service??

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slith

It is clearly just a penalty for being naughty. They seriously can't expect anyone with a brain to move to this broadband extreme joke.

The extreme package, they claim, is aimed to business users, same speed though as the ultra, and no cap (hah). But wait, here is the funny bit:

"is a lot less strict when it comes to the acceptable usage limit".

In other words, you fork almost twice as much for the package and we will turn a blind eye on the acceptable usage limit. I call this a bribe. And a risky one at that. Nothing stops them from sending you another notice the next month reminding you what the fair usage is, but don't expect to see your contract 'downgraded' to the previous one without incurring in a penalty.

R0ot

So has anyone actually been cut off or "upgraded" over this by UPC? Just got a similar letter in the door but since i'm leaving my uploads and heavy downloads to off peak times I didn't think I would receive any letter like this, saying that i've only slightly gone over their mark of 250gb (286.42).

I was rather annoyed at this because I didn't see a cap listed anywhere on their site. (yeah I realise the fair usage thing and all but between 3am and 7am in the morning letting your download/upload speed run free isn't really affecting many people)

Blindpew

During the day and the midde of the night would seem to be the peak times with UPC. I got one of those letters too when I used to leave the PC on all night. Now I do all my downloading between 7 and 10 in the evening with rapidshare and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Obviously all the people I was affecting before only turn on their pcs after midnight.

FloatingVoter

If they're aiming for 20 Mbs users to go to 60/120 Mbs when it becomes available, the fair usage cap will have to go up as well. I would guess most of us jumped at the 20 Mbs not for the speed alone, but also the "unlimited" part of the upload/download deal.

The-Game

9 out of every 10 people who ive heard of that had the 20mb deal almost never got the full speed, thats why most dropped to the 10mb! I wouldnt be too worried about the letters they send though

altered121

no, the letters are serious. My proof is a few accounts are in my name, one house breached the limit got letter, passed limit again and the next bill was for the extreme broadband, it has been moved back to old price this month as different man is using the connection and the other man is gone back to another office so he is not using that connection. OR maybe I was just unlucky

ronkmonster

I've been moved to broadband extreme without any warning letters or emails.

Wouldn't have known only I went to myupc for another thing and checked bill while there.
I've asked for them to explain what I get for this higher price.
I'll probably accept it if it is truely uncapped.

hightower1

Its not an advertised package as I can see on their site so you wont get anything extra other than they allow you to keep on your contract, the alternative is they have the right to terminate your contract then and there for FUP breach.

Dublin_Gunner

IMO if a limit is not explicitly stated in the FUP, then they really can not accuse anyone of breaking the FUP - after all, it is 'they' who are deciding what is 'fair'.

I'd send a copy of the letter, with a covering letter explaining the situation to ComReg and CC UPC and see what they say.

I'd imagine their FUP would be updated fairly swiftly.

As for 'upgrading' you to another package without your explicit consent - that leaves them open to a fairly hefty fine, and is indeed a breach of the contract you currently have with them.

Are laws are really there to protect the consumer, yet companies like UPC seem to think they can get away with what they like, once they're vague enough - unfortunately thats just not true, but people rarely argue the point unfortunately. I'm pretty sure this would all be in contravention of the consumer protection code, and UPC would indeed be found to be the ones who are, in fact, 'unfair'...

ronkmonster

Who do I report them too? ComReg?
I know there is a fair usage policy of around 250gb but there is nowhere to check it and I wasn't warned about going over it. I'm only a customer since August.

Dublin_Gunner

ronkmonster wrote: »

Who do I report them too? ComReg?
I know there is a fair usage policy of around 250gb but there is nowhere to check it and I wasn't warned about going over it. I'm only a customer since August.

Comreg would be a start alright.

Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland would be another good bet.

The Consumer Association of Ireland would probably have the info on how to go about it, as well as the National Consumer Agency.

Gran Hermano

Any sign of UPC providing their customers with the facility to check their own usage?

hightower1

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

IMO if a limit is not explicitly stated in the FUP, then they really can not accuse anyone of breaking the FUP - after all, it is 'they' who are deciding what is 'fair'.

I'd send a copy of the letter, with a covering letter explaining the situation to ComReg and CC UPC and see what they say.

I'd imagine their FUP would be updated fairly swiftly.

As for 'upgrading' you to another package without your explicit consent - that leaves them open to a fairly hefty fine, and is indeed a breach of the contract you currently have with them.

Are laws are really there to protect the consumer, yet companies like UPC seem to think they can get away with what they like, once they're vague enough - unfortunately thats just not true, but people rarely argue the point unfortunately. I'm pretty sure this would all be in contravention of the consumer protection code, and UPC would indeed be found to be the ones who are, in fact, 'unfair'...

Here we go again!

Look, I agree i would love to see FUP's displayed in big flashing letters BUT they are not and Comreg are ok with this.

Comreg state that as long as *terms and conditions apply and that there is mention of an FUP they dont have a problem with it. The FUP is in the contract that he signed for and agreed to so writing to comreg will result in them saying "it does say terms and conditions apply and did you read these?" ... The signature on the contract allows an ISP to upgrade you as it says in their contracts that they can (I am not saying this is moraly fair but it is there in black and white).

If all the t & c's are read in the contract and if you disagree with anything dont sign, if you do read it and do sign you dont have a leg to stand on.
If you dont read it and do sign you dont have a leg to stand on and should have known better.

Its harsh and morally underhanded but if you dont read a contract then I cant feel sorry for any party ... ISP or consumer.

ronkmonster

Don't suppose any of those place open at weekends? No phone signal where I live.

Is the content I was downloading an issue or is this a breech of contract issue only?

hightower1

As I understand it UPC are not monitoring what your downloading i.e Eircoms case so I would imagine its about the volume of downloads.

This link should be useful anyways....

Basically says that an ISP should state the FUP is in play and procedures surrounding this in the contarct. It also says to read the contract carefully before signing.

"ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing."

http://www.askcomreg.ie/home/my_service_provider_has_advertised_an_%22unlimited_package%22___what_does_this_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

My Service Provider has advertised an "unlimited package" - what does this mean for me?

A number of telephone and broadband packages being offered are described as ‘unlimited’. In this context the word ‘unlimited’ would normally be taken to mean that a subscriber, having agreed to pay a set price, may make as many calls or spend as much time online as he or she wishes. However, some service contracts qualify the meaning of ‘unlimited’ by stating that it is subject to an ‘acceptable’ or ‘fair’ level of use by the subscriber. This is referred to as a “fair usage policy” in some advertising.

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

Dublin_Gunner

Thank you Hightower, that post contradicts your last.

ISP's cannot just go around doing what they wish, and stating 'ah well, you signed a contract.'

They are hoping that is what most consumers will assume [tied to contract].

A contract, especially in this sense, will not be worth the paper its written on if its deemed to be unclear and / or unfair to the consumer.

These issues are clearly stated in the Consumer Protection Code.

In particular:

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

UPC does not follow this currently, as they would have to explicitly state in the FUP as to what the usage limits are.

Obviously, 250GB would practically be 'unlimited' to most consumers, however, they still need to state this clearly.

If UPC were challenged on the FUP relating to 'unlimited' broadband bundles, they would lose. Their advertising is misleading (and plainly lies) and their FUP does not indicate (or at least it didn't last I checked) the limits set out as being 'fair' in an 'unlimited' package.

hightower1

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Thank you Hightower, that post contradicts your last.

ISP's cannot just go around doing what they wish, and stating 'ah well, you signed a contract.'

They are hoping that is what most consumers will assume [tied to contract].

A contract, especially in this sense, will not be worth the paper its written on if its deemed to be unclear and / or unfair to the consumer.

These issues are clearly stated in the Consumer Protection Code.

In particular:

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

UPC does not follow this currently, as they would have to explicitly state in the FUP as to what the usage limits are.

Obviously, 250GB would practically be 'unlimited' to most consumers, however, they still need to state this clearly.

If UPC were challenged on the FUP relating to 'unlimited' broadband bundles, they would lose. Their advertising is misleading (and plainly lies) and their FUP does not indicate (or at least it didn't last I checked) the limits set out as being 'fair' in an 'unlimited' package.

Buddy i have no idea why you think I'm the problem here lol... if I ran an ISP it'd plastered on the front door sure.

In regards to what comreg say about the fup being clear and have a transparent policy ... they do... its in the contract.
They dont say it has to be on the very first page of their website ya know?

Nearly all the ISP have an "Unlimited" cap but in actual fact are governed by the FUP in the terms and conditions. I agree it is misleading but people should have more common sense tbh. If people dont read the fine print ona contract then hand over bank details they deserve it. ISP's should have the hard numbers clearly stated but they dont so contact comreg.
In my opinion they will just direct you twords the link but its your choice.

Best bet is to contact comreg... see what THEY say and post your findings here on Boards.

Dublin_Gunner

I wasn't stating you were the problem man! Was just stating that your points from the comreg site contradict your assumptions in your previous post!

A contract won;t hold up if it can be deeemed to be reasonably misleading. The CPC states that any contract betweeen a supplier and a consumer has to be clear & concise.

UPC are not, they are deliberately deceitful in order to falsely advertise a service they don't / can't reasonably provide.

Sure, the issue really only effects a small number of consumers in the long run - but it still effects them.

If they clearly state the usage limits in their FUP there would be no issue.

Our laws do not allow for "people should have more common sense", they are there to protect the consumer.

The fact is, a lot of consumers have little common sense, and will purchase what they deem to be a good deal, even if its misleading - hence these companies try to get away with it, and hence our Consumer Protection Code.

vibe666

ah, the thread that wouldn't die.

i got a letter back in Feb (for Jan) to tell me I'd hammered the living crap out of my 20mbps connection and could i please cut it down to no more than 250gb per month.

no i didn't like it, but as has been pointed out here plenty often, no ISP can afford a truly unlimited service for it's users because people (like you and me) will always test those limits, just because we can.

no, the contents of what you download aren't relevant, BUT lets be honest, there's only so many Linux ISO's and royalty free documentaries you can download in a month and I'm fairly sure it's less than 250gb's worth.

UPC are supposed to notify you if you exceed the FUP and no, it's not something they advertise, but most of the time if you go over significantly they will send you a letter informing you. the thing is, I'm pretty sure they only have to send that out to a minuscule percentage of their users, and most of the time, only once. if you call them and ask, they will tell you, but for 99.9% of their users, the service is effectively unlimited. not to mention the fact that 3tb a year is a pretty big allowance by any standards and certainly ore than you'd get with any other ISP. even smart have given up on their 'totally unlimited' sales pitch AFAIK, after saying for years that their network was able to handle anything.

UPC are pretty generous with the allowance on the 20mbps product and now that i know the FUP is there i embrace it and look at it as my monthly target.

yes, it's a bit of a PITA that they don't give you a way to measure it, but i got myself a router with some fancy 3rd party firmware and it measures every kb that comes in and goes out and keeps a log of it and everyone's happy. i don't exceed my 250gb limit and UPC don't have to send me letters about it.

Dublin_Gunner

Just reading the Acceptable Usage Policy on their site, and I lol'd

For purposes of illustration only, 1 gigabyte downstream of data transfer equates to approximately 200 music tracks, 650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded.

100 large software programmes????? Thats more than misleading, thats stupid.

“Excessive use” of the Service is defined as usage exceeding your monthly data transfer allowance.

So, unlimited???

So UPC has an * beside 'unlimited' suggesting you refer to the AUP. Nowhere in the AUP do they define 'unlimited' usage.

They can not warn you, suspend service, change your contract etc because of high usage on an 'unlimited' package, as they have not defined what their definition of fair usage on an unlimited bandwidth plan is.

They would lose if this issue was brought before the small claims court or ComReg.

hightower1

Seems like ISP's are geared up to undercut a consumer and protect themselves from people taking the mick and consumers have no trust in ISP's and then try to take the mick.

Someone has to back down somewhere and get things sorted.
I think it'd be a great day when we see an honest ISP in Ireland, "yes we throttle torrents but thats because it wuold slow everyone down in a whole, we'd love to not have to but torrents are really taking the piss bandwidth wise" , "here's your fair use cap xxgb per month, its not a target just a guideline" , "Yeah there is contention in your area, really sorry but here we go have some money off and we will try get it sorted fast" ..... what a breath of fresh air it would be.... BUT then that would rely on consumers not minding torrents being throttled when Its actually needed, not jumping ship as soon as the network slows in an area for a while and not treating the FUP like a bullseye.

If that could be done we'd half the blood pressure of the state and the beatles would rise form the graves / penthouse apartments to sing a gig on o'connel street!

Dublin_Gunner

But the whole point is - there wouldn't be any taking the Mick is they stated 'your limit is 200GB per month' 'you can check your current usage by logging on to your modem at 168.xx...'

If they did that, then there wouldn't be an issue.

Currently, they are attempting to hold people to a non-specific AUP, and attempting to punish people for breaching something that they have not outlined. They cannot do this, but fortunately for them, most people do not realise that UPC cannot act this way legally.

I've no problem with ISP's wanted to protect themselves, so they can make profit, and still provide reasonable services. It would be a lot better for them, and for us consumers, if they just stated what was deemed to be 'acceptable usage'.

vibe666

so what you're saying is, you think it's unfair that they put limits on an unlimited package and then don't define those limits or give you any way to check how close you are to the limit you don't know?

i say go for it, take them to court and see what happens.

the simple truth is, they know that the closest anyone is going to get to taking them to court over it is talking about it on here to people of no consequence because you can't consistently download over 250gb per month without dipping your toes into the muddy waters of pirated content and nobody is going to walk into a court to defend their right to download an unlimited number of the latest tv shows, music and movies.

and what would actually happen if someone did take them to court?

they'd remove the unlimited package altogether and place an enforced cap of 100gb or something like that just to annoy the people stiring up trouble and we'd all be worse off. :mad:

Dublin_Gunner

I'm not saying its unfair - the Consumer Protection Code and ComReg are saying it is, and its not allowed.

Simple. I don;t make the rules - the regulators and law makers do.

The only ones in muddy water here are UPC and others like them.

The content you download is irrelevant for this argument.

All I'm saying is, and to state it yet again, is they should not advertise a limited 'unlimited' service, and they should define in their AUP what the limits are.

I wouldn't take them to court personally, as I have not been inconvenienced by them, or had my contract broken by them, and have not suffered financial loss because of them.

Feoras

Well they've gone and switched me to Broadband Extreme and upped my bill to 80 per month. They even charged me for switching.

I want to tell them to shove their service and move to another ISP. Where can I go though? Who else offers a similar service but with a FUP of up to say 500GB?

And what is the FUP for extreme anyway? Is it more than 250GB? What am I getting for my extra buck?

Ranicand

Feoras wrote: »

Well they've gone and switched me to Broadband Extreme and upped my bill to 80 per month. They even charged me for switching.

I want to tell them to shove their service and move to another ISP. Where can I go though? Who else offers a similar service but with a FUP of up to say 500GB?

And what is the FUP for extreme anyway? Is it more than 250GB? What am I getting for my extra buck?

Was 100% of what you downloaded legal?

250GB is a hell of a lot of traffic.

I know UPC are a bit sly with their FUP but if you are breaking copyright you are not keeping up you end of the contract.

That is over 8GB per 24 period or a GB every 3 hours.

250GB is virtually unlimited for the majority of people.

Nobody will give you 500GB for anything below 80euro.

Don't get me wrong I know in the real world people use torrents but in the real world ISPs also enforce fair use limits even on so called unlimited packs.

I think I remember reading on these boards the BT had an unlimited pack that has a FUP of 100GB.

Do you understand that there is a contention ratio and people hogging the bandwidth slow things down for everyone.

Unless you can demonstrate that you racked up more then 250GB in a 100% legal way I think you are onto a loser.

By the way I am not being a noob I understand how things work in the real world I am saying you should too.

ronkmonster

Feoras wrote: »

Well they've gone and switched me to Broadband Extreme and upped my bill to 80 per month. They even charged me for switching.

I want to tell them to shove their service and move to another ISP. Where can I go though? Who else offers a similar service but with a FUP of up to say 500GB?

And what is the FUP for extreme anyway? Is it more than 250GB? What am I getting for my extra buck?

I asked what I was getting for the extra money and they just said the ability to download over 250gb
So i just download non stop. might as well for that price.

slave1

You may not be aware but NTL's modems do have SNMP daemons running so it's possible to expose the variables that indicate speed and throughput...

If you're already running a machine 24/7 then it makes sense to capture the SNMP data and have pretty graphs / data to determine what your upload / download for a month is.

Is this possible with the UPC supplied Cisco Cable Modem?
If so, can you point me in the direction of directions?

Thanks

IrishTonyO

slave1 wrote: »

Is this possible with the UPC supplied Cisco Cable Modem?
If so, can you point me in the direction of directions?

Thanks

yeah if you can would be interested to know how, if not anyone know of a good application to monitor and log your data usage?

JBUCD

I am just curious. Did the letter mention anything about what you where downloading? Or was it really just a rant at the amount you have being downloading?