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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

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Victor

I found a map on, I think, a Danish version of Open Street Map. It shows elevation quite well.

There are bunch of oppurtunities for a merged M20/M24 north of Mitchelstown. However, the current course of the M8 pre-empts some of them. Two options - black (possible) and red (no longer practical).

spacetweek

Victor wrote: »

I found a map on, I think, a Danish version of Open Street Map. It shows elevation quite well.

There are bunch of oppurtunities for a merged M20/M24 north of Mitchelstown. However, the current course of the M8 pre-empts some of them. Two options - black (possible) and red (no longer practical).

Wanna show us?

Tech3

I thought I might stick up one photo of the existing M20

as there is no existing M20 progress thread.

M20 Northbound approaching J2

BluntGuy

That looks like a good wiki photo.

cjpm

19/10/2009 - 08:56:05
A man has died following a road crash on the main Cork to Limerick road this morning.

The two-vehicle collision happened on the N20 between Buttevant and Mallow just after 6am.
The dead man is believed to have been in his 30s.
Another man was taken to Mallow Hospital suffering from shock.
The road where the crash occurred has been closed for technical examination, with motorists being diverted onto other routes.

According to AA roadwatch this morning, it happened at Ballybeg.

This road would have been upgraded years ago if Cork East had any good politicians. Ned O'Keeffe only thinks of his own corner, - remember his rant at the parents of Rathcormac N.S.

Those bends are ridiculous, and frost prone during the winter too. How many more lives must be lost before the NRA do anything about it.

KerranJast

cjpm wrote: »

19/10/2009 - 08:56:05
A man has died following a road crash on the main Cork to Limerick road this morning.

The two-vehicle collision happened on the N20 between Buttevant and Mallow just after 6am.
The dead man is believed to have been in his 30s.
Another man was taken to Mallow Hospital suffering from shock.
The road where the crash occurred has been closed for technical examination, with motorists being diverted onto other routes.

According to AA roadwatch this morning, it happened at Ballybeg.

This road would have been upgraded years ago if Cork East had any good politicians. Ned O'Keeffe only thinks of his own corner, - remember his rant at the parents of Rathcormac N.S.

Those bends are ridiculous, and frost prone during the winter too. How many more lives must be lost before the NRA do anything about it.

Yeah first thing I thought when I heard about the crash (apart from obviously the misfortunates involved) was the crazy situation with the M20 project. They've just finished build a €500 million bypass of Waterford today which is great for them and all but it's insane that the road between the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the State is effectively an R-road in large sections.

cjpm

There was a bad crash between Charlivelle and Buttevent on friday evening too.
Looked pretty horrific but fortunately no one killed on that occasion.

black47

cjpm wrote: »

19/10/2009 - 08:56:05
A man has died following a road crash on the main Cork to Limerick road this morning.

The two-vehicle collision happened on the N20 between Buttevant and Mallow just after 6am.
The dead man is believed to have been in his 30s.
Another man was taken to Mallow Hospital suffering from shock.
The road where the crash occurred has been closed for technical examination, with motorists being diverted onto other routes.

According to AA roadwatch this morning, it happened at Ballybeg.

This road would have been upgraded years ago if Cork East had any good politicians. Ned O'Keeffe only thinks of his own corner, - remember his rant at the parents of Rathcormac N.S.

Those bends are ridiculous, and frost prone during the winter too. How many more lives must be lost before the NRA do anything about it.

I drove the narrow straight section between Charleveille and Bonogue a few years ago in fog with wife and 3 kids aboard. This lunatic came out of the fog overtaking and coming straight at me. I had nowhere to go but luckily he got back in just in time.

How can the NRA drop this road upgrade from the PPP list in favour of 2 projects on the substantially finished N11 is beyond me. See below

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/PublicPrivatePartnership/file,16119,en.pdf

The amount of headstones, flowers and white crosses on the N20 need no further explanation

cjpm

black47 wrote: »

The amount of headstones, flowers and white crosses on the N20 need no further explanation

You are right, there have been some amount of fatalities on that road.

Only for the fact that it lies between Cork North West, Cork East and Limerick South it would have been upgraded years ago, everything comes down to local politics in this damn country.... If there was a government minister pushing for this at any stage it would have been done, and done long ago.

The blood of all those unfortunate victims is on the NRA's hands by their inaction and shortsightness.

Sponge Bob

black47 wrote: »

The amount of headstones, flowers and white crosses on the N20 need no further explanation

I remember a particularly effective campaign in Cappataggle in the mid 1990s ( it is west of Aughrim on the current N6)

The locals got both ends ( not the middle) of a horrific stretch of N6 upgraded by planting white crosses everywhere ( see the end) ....in memory of the 1 person a year killed on that 5 mile stretch stretch over the previous 30 years .

Even the useless Galway East type of TD was able to get some mileage out of it after all the publicity ( U Burke in that link) , even if that was only 3 miles of realignment out of 5 over the next 4 years. They then decided to build the Motorway and left the rest as is. It was the worst stretch of 'old' N6 bar a similar stretch west of Kinnegad.

I recommend a particularly large 2m high cross .

munchkin_utd

The experimental 2+1 section with central barrier though on the N20 has reduced deaths on that section from being a regular occurance to not happening at all.

As an interim solution could you not bring in some more of these on the worst sections for accidents?

Even on sections where the carriageway isnt suitable for 2+1, to separate the traffic physically and eliminate the chances of crazy overtaking manoeuvers would be a cost effective way to save lives.

(and probably with normal metal barriers than the "cheese cutter" variety but thats a matter for another discussion)

Sponge Bob

munchkin_utd wrote: »

As an interim solution could you not bring in some more of these on the worst sections for accidents?

The lethal sections are too narrow and have no hard shoulders ,all Mallow to Croom bar a bit south of Charleville where you could possibly 2+1 it .

Mind you I also remember what the current 2+1 section replaced in the 1980s , that was feckin hideous

Amtmann

When did the wide (and dualled) sections of N20 from between Blackpool and Mallow open?

Sponge Bob

The southern half of Cork Mallow was a 1990s project , it may have opened as late as 1995 but it would have been designed in the late 1980s I reckon.

The northern half of Cork Mallow was designed in the early 1980s and built in the mid-late 1980s . Same with the 'Mallow Bypass' where they knocked the railway bridge and widened the road around there .

I think the stretch between Charleville and Buttevant was done around then too or that they added hard shoulders.

Patrickswell-Croom is 1990s design and build .

The rest is 1950s road in the main with a smidge of 1960s or 1970s north of Mallow .

That is my memory of it anyway .

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The southern half of Cork Mallow was a 1990s project , it may have opened as late as 1995 but it would have been designed in the late 1980s I reckon.

Where is the original road? I presume it's medieval?

cjpm

The original road between Cork and Mallow was terrible and was said to have 101 bends.

The Mallow - Rathduff section was replaced in the early 80's by the N20 which ran through the old route in a few places, areas where you see lay-by's on the side of the current N20. It ran past Murphy's pub in Mourneabby.

Rathduff - Cork was built around 1995 and was totally new. Built on the west of the original route which still exists and is to be the alternative route to Cork once the M20 is built.

Sponge Bob

cjpm wrote: »

The original road between Cork and Mallow was terrible and was said to have 101 bends.

Not an exagerration that , I remember it

The only decent roads built in the 1980s , and still up to the job, were the Ballyshannon to Lahey road in Donegal and from Letterkenny to the Border at Derry .

All the rest of them were emergency upgrades to something positively primeval and many have themselves been bypassed or upgraded since, eg the Lucan Bypass had to be redone 20 years after it was built

busman

Furet wrote: »

Where is the original road? I presume it's medieval?

The OSI Map viewer now has historic maps that can be viewed online.
http://ims0.osiemaps.ie/website/publicviewer/main.aspx#V1,554291,607469,5

Looks like the bad bends on the road at Ballybeg have been there since 1843 if not much longer.

invincibleirish

I think my favourite bit of the N20 is the twisty section with the Quarry & castle remains somewhere in the badlands. I've been doing Cork - Limerick regularly for a while and it all seems a bit mad that this road has still been pretty much untouched bar the 2+1, the amount of insane overtaking you see on it (presumably by regular commuters) defies belief!. Any upgrade, Mway or otherwise should be numero uno on the NRAs to do list, forget nonsense like the New Ross bypass and pointless sections of the ARC.

Aidan1

It's worth remembering that up until the early 1990s, the old Cork-Mallow road was subject to thousands of additional trips in a 3-4 month period from end Sept to January, as lorries ferrying sugar beet from the main growing areas had to trundle along. When the new road opened, it took an hour off the trip for trucks from East Cork - all of a sudden it was possible to do 4 trips a day. It also made life somewhat liveable for those living along the road. The original road was much older - some of it may have been 1950s in origin - but I would guess that most of the bridges and earthworks where from the 1920s or earlier.

It was even worse when everything had to go along the quays in the city.

cjpm

Where were all the Cork and Limerick politicians when this got shelved?? Shame on them...
They are supposed to be looking after the people of their constituancy, and by neglecting this critical piece of infrastructure, they are ensuring that plenty more families end up burying loved ones lost to the N20.

We didn't hear any of them in the news criticising the indefinitle delay of the M20. Where were they?

Just because it's not a route to Dublin doesn't mean that it's not busy or not needed.

From the Examiner web-site.... RIP Neil

Lorry driver arrested after fatal road crash

By Eoin English
Tuesday, October 20, 2009

A SCOTTISH truck driver in his 40s was arrested yesterday after a fatal road traffic accident.

Gardaí were last night preparing a file for the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) after releasing him without charge following a day of questioning.

He was arrested and detained under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act just hours after a man in his mid-30s was killed in the early morning accident on the N20 Cork to Limerick road.

Neil Orchard, from Feargus, Dripsey, Co Cork, and who would have turned 35 next Tuesday, was the sole occupant of a four-wheel drive jeep.

He was driving along a notoriously dangerous stretch of road on the Mallow side of Buttevant, known locally as the "Ballybeg bends", when the accident occurred at about 6.15am.

Two large lorries, each transporting a huge section of a wind turbine pylon on long trailers, were travelling in convoy in the opposite direction on route from Foynes to Millstreet.

The right side of Mr Orchard’s jeep was completely destroyed after it was in collision with the right side of the lead truck’s trailer.

The jeep’s steering wheel column was among the debris strewn across the road.

Emergency services, including gardaí, a HSE ambulance, and several units of the county fire service based in Mallow, rushed to the scene but Mr Orchard was pronounced dead at the scene. His body was taken to Cork University Hospital for a postmortem examination.

The truck driver was uninjured and was taken to Mallow General Hospital where he was treated for shock. He was arrested later.

The road was closed and diversions were in place for several hours while a Garda road collision investigation team conducted a detailed examination of the scene.

Superintendent Pat McCarthy appealed for anyone who travelled the N20 in the early hours yesterday and who saw the convoy before the accident, or who may have witnessed the actual accident itself, to contact Mallow Garda Station on 022-21105.

Fine Gael TD Bernard Allen said the tragedy highlighted the urgent need for the construction of a new motorway linking Cork and Limerick.

.... too little too late Bernard...

Reenascreena

In fairness to Bernard he's the only TD that has been seriously lobbying for this road and has been for a number of years, bearing in mind that the new road only touches the edge of his constituency as well.

cjpm

Reenascreena wrote: »

In fairness to Bernard he's the only TD that has been seriously lobbying for this road and has been for a number of years, bearing in mind that the new road only touches the edge of his constituency as well.

We fair dues to Bernard because he's doing something, surely he could drum up some support within Fine Gael, and shout from the roof-tops. A reasonable standard road between Ireland's 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the 21st century isn't too much to ask for..... Not a cart track in places... We don't hear anything from Noel O'Flynn or Billy Kelliher either for that matter, they are more concerned about the city than what goes on in the rural areas of Cork N.C.

Oh by the way, the proposed M20 is to pass through at least 10 miles of their constituencies, Cork North Central, that's about one sixth of the total route.

Edit:
I read the Times, Independant and Examiner web-sites each lunch time and never spotted that article which Reenascreena has posted below.... Anyway the rest of the politicians should be pushing for the M20 not just Bernard

Reenascreena

Yesterday:

M20 must proceed as deadly road claims another victim – Allen

THE Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Cork TD Bernard Allen is calling for the cancelled M20 road project between Cork and Limerick to be reinstated following another tragic death on the existing N20.

Deputy Allen said, “I was shocked and saddened to hear today that there has been yet another fatal accident on the main road between Cork and Limerick. This road was due to be replaced by the new Cork to Limerick motorway, plans for which have now been mothballed due to a lack of funding.

“This tragedy brings into sharp focus once again the urgent need to improve the main route between our second and third largest cities. The stretch of road where this tragic accident occurred resembles a twisty boreen and has been the scene of scores of accidents over the years.

“It is clearly totally inadequate to serve as the major highway between Cork and Limerick. Plans to improve the route were mothballed earlier this year due to lack of funding while work will still go ahead on other projects around the country which have much better safety records than the N20.

“The N20 must be one of the most dangerous national routes in the country and is clearly not fit for purpose. This is a safety issue and I am calling on the Government, the Transport Minister, the NRA and the Road Safety Authority to urgently reassess the importance of building a new road. Tragedies like the one that occurred this morning will continue to happen until action is taken,” he said.

October 8:

“Major capital projects of all kinds that have not already been signed off have effectively been abandoned in Ireland. Just recently the Cork to Limerick motorway was mothballed; we still don’t have even basic broadband coverage in may areas; education funding is chronically short of what is required and reducing; proper water systems are a pipe dream for many towns and villages and people are suffering and indeed dying because of the appalling state of our health services.”

As I said, in fairness he has been raising it. I don't work for him or anything, I just think its notable that virtually no other TD has said a peep and some in Limerick have actually come out in opposition to the road.

serfboard

RIP the driver that was killed and I agree with other posters on here.

I thought the NRA were supposed to have changed tack with regard to road project priorities and were supposed to take road safety into consideration?

To that end, I agreed that the N11 gap should be filled because it too is a very dangerous stretch of road, with quite a number of accidents over the years.

In relation to the N/M20, let's take the reality that it is not being prioritised. Could the existing 2-phase plan not be broken up into smaller pieces (like we did in the 80s and 90s) and built that way? (And I mean to full motorway spec, but only doing, for example, 2 interchanges at a time)

In particular, could the NRA not price (from the original plans) Mallow->Charleville (i.e. Mallow Interchange->Charleville South Interchange) to remove this literally deadly dangerous stretch?

cjpm

serfboard wrote: »

In relation to the N/M20, let's take the reality that it is not being prioritised. Could the existing 2-phase plan not be broken up into smaller pieces (like we did in the 80s and 90s) and built that way? (And I mean to full motorway spec, but only doing, for example, 2 interchanges at a time)

In particular, could the NRA not price (from the original plans) Mallow->Charleville (i.e. Mallow Interchange->Charleville South Interchange) to remove this literally deadly dangerous stretch?

The problem with small sections is that you totally lose out on the economies of scale that are achieved in large jobs, thus it was divided into 2 No 40km sections.

In addition the M20 was supposed to be a PPP. This would not be possible if the route is broken into small sections.

Chris_533976

Its not 'cancelled' either, merely put on the back burner because the government cant afford the land CPOs.

spacetweek

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Its not 'cancelled' either, merely put on the back burner because the government cant afford the land CPOs.

I wouldn't be too pessimistic either. It's all to play for really. It will be interesting to see what 2011's road budget looks like (2010's will simply consist of funding for the remaining interurban sections.) The budget cannot simply go from 1.5 billion to zero in the space of a year.

Though in any case, since the rest of the PPPs are taking precedence over the M20, it could be as late as 2014 before work starts on it.

Chris_533976

I fear that 2010s budget will be for the rest of the interurbans which are being built, 2011s will be for the ones that drift into 2011 (Limerick ones). The rest of 2011 there will be no funding for new roads at all, except for one scheme, a cheap one, just to say "we're spending money still". N5 Longford is the candidate, as its the cheapest of all.

The PPPs will be seperate from this though. If they get going, then good. The M17/18 is the most important, as its success/failure will determine the other three. The M20 wont be touched till after the four PPPs are done though.

Sponge Bob

spacetweek wrote: »

The budget cannot simply go from 1.5 billion to zero in the space of a year.

Though in any case, since the rest of the PPPs are taking precedence over the M20, it could be as late as 2014 before work starts on it.

It can , frankly . But the greens will be gone by mid 2012 .

More like 2018 .