meglome wrote: » Try this http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/yes-best-for-industry-in-long-term-says-fishermens-group-101833.html#ixzz0S6f3iD5v Hmm I thought the EU had robbed us and all the fishing organizations were against it. Seems you and Rtdh were wrong (again)
buck65 wrote: » I think Clare will vote yes again. Not sure about the country as a whole, many might again use this to give a slap our incompetent, corrupt government.
theasylumkey wrote: » http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62253494&postcount=262
Run_to_da_hills wrote: » That means absolutely nothing, Its more like that top brass in that organization have been bullied into submission by scare mongering EU politicians. The average fisherman with his trawler lying up on dry dock pi**ed off because his livelihood has been robbed by the EU is hardly going to buy this one.
akkadian wrote: » That's why most people need to think again. The way to vote on Lisbon is to size it up as a treaty, reading as much factual impartial information on it as possible. If people are unhappy with the government, they should think strongly about rejecting the NAMA propaganda. I was for NAMA but I'm not sure now. Honestly guys, Ireland is bankrupt. California is bankrupt,. Michigan is bankrupt. Many other states are bankrupt. Incidentally, what's happening in the states is a mirror of what's happening here. The federal governnent is bailing out (and hence taking control) of states like California. Whoever gets to bail out has the power as they control the interest rates. Ireland is under that same kind of influence of power now. You see these 'idiots' on TV always knocking Iceland. 'Oh, they wish they were part of the EU now' and maybe there's some truth to that, but NAMA may be a stone throw too far for me. I think I'd rather we took our chances with FG's good bank system. It's NOT perfect I know but with tweaking it could serve it's purpose: 1. Let Anglo Irish and other corrupt pawn companies dissolve. (NAMA supports these 2. LET the economy contract a bit more. It's a fake bubble anyway. It's a hard hit, but unfortunately it's reality. It's a fake economy. In fact it makes the good companies look bad. There are now 140 or so medical device companies in Ireland exporting 10% total exports and a big chunk of the balance of trade surplus. Ireland has had a balance of trade surplus for the last 20 years, but these days (in the last 10 years) how much of it is really Irish? Foreign owned companies provide jobs yes, but those jobs can evaporate overnight as you saw. Also, a lot of these companies are mediocre construction companies implanted by the likes of Anglo-Irish to fuel a fake bubble to make Ireland dependant on foreign investment. And that's really my point. Ireland is now dependent on this foreign investment, IMO, by design. I say cut the big impaired toxic loans completely loose, keep the economy on life support until the budget slashes and keep putting money into subsidies for privately owned start-ups based in Ireland. Not public companies like AIB. These companies can be invested by anyone and are really just corporate monarchies. That's what they are. That's what publically owned companies - LLC's (PLC's) - effectivlely are. They're mini mobile monarchies. A ceo steps into his harness at the top, does whatever the greedy shareholders want him to do for profits and then, on instruction, does whatever someone else tells him to do, gives himself a bonis and then offers free-for-all loans that are unrealistically repayable. The ceo of of these types of companies have NO responsibility (pretty much) Limited Liability Company. The first LLC was set up in Germany in 1892. How reassuring is that, and now we have them in Ireland. CRH are at least responsible but the banks ... do you really want to support the continuation of these now corrupt ridden institutions? Anyone can pump money into these. That's how sensitive they are. One more big H1N1 outbreak, or any kind of global hit at all, and bang - these ''assets'' rapidly become a big noose around everyone's neck. We need to take our bitter medicine. The Irish Economy in spite of still having a balance of trade surplus, is too fragile as long as we carry these banks along. Theres too much speculation in the market place and these times are far far too uncertain to take the risk. I say let the economy contract more this year, cut them loose if necessary, and work with what we do have. We as usual export more than we import. We now have good infrastructure. Literacy and education are amongst the highest in the world. Ireland has the highest level of economic freedom in the world, and after a few city states in Asia, and Australia, it's the fourth most economically free in the world. It's a small open economy that inherantly attracts investment. I don't support ignoring this in favour of supporting NAMA - which means in all honesty it means supporting another bubble waiting to be burst. I see it like this: 1. FG Good Bank 2. Labour Nationalisation 3. FF NAMA - the only show in town!!! ...only it's not a show for the extraordinary working people of Ireland. If you are angry with the government then please, please don't be coerced into using the Lisbon treaty as a valve to let off steam. Vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Do your research. Answer the question actually being asked. IMO, we need to demand a general election. Many of you are probably suffering from red mist. You've poured all your betting chips into FF, and now you can't back down. you have to believe that NAMA is the only solution, but it's not. The same people that walk around saying the same thing over and over and over again - 'the other parties would be no better...' are the same people that just can't imagine something better. You want to live in your imaginary world with a false bubble NAMA that's just going to (in the best case scenario) fuel a new property bubble ripe for the re-bursting. Please don't reward the likes of Anglo-Irish for their treachery.
meglome wrote: » Do you mind me asking what all the rant about NAMA has to do with a thread about an EU treaty? Our own government put us in the position we are in, a government we voted for. Although in fairness I do agree with you that we should vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits.
akkadian wrote: » It doesn't have anything to do with it. I demonstrated that no matter how much economics and NAMA tie in with the treaty, I will vote for or against the treaty on it's own merits. Nothing more, nothing less, and I hope others do the same
meglome wrote: » Okay... but NAMA has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty. NAMA is going to go ahead whether we vote Yes or no to Lisbon.
akkadian wrote: » We won't know that until post-lisbon. If Lisbon is rejected FF would probably be ousted following a general election (I would hope) and then ...no more NAMA!
meglome wrote: » As much as I like the idea unfortunately it's not based in any reality. No government has ever quit from a referendum loss. Only the Greens can get rid of Fianna Fail and they won't do anything until their own poll ratings improve. It looks like we'll be waiting for the next general election, which is obviously the sensible time to vote against the government. If you don't like what the government is doing it really makes no sense to vote against the EU.
akkadian wrote: » I never said they would quit from any referendum loss. I think it's quite possible that a 'no' together with the budget cuts they have to implement could be enough for a vote of no confidence in the government and a resultant general election. Obviously there's a lot of ifs, least of which being that Irish people are prepared to remove the dildo that is the government, after they allowed and continued to promote the false economy that they're now trying to re-inflate for the second burst through NAMA
akkadian wrote: » FG would even be better but no matter what I say, it won't really matter very much will it? You'll just respond with 'they have no alternative' when they clearly do, or 'their alternative is not as good' .. in your opinion. FG would be better for the real economy IMO, FF would be better for the fake economy, but that's the world we live in. When FF canned the Eircom stadium project, people said they wouldn't vote them back in after that wastefulness but..they did After the Ahern scandal, people said they would not vote for them again but ..they probably will. After commiting to not vote for FF if Lisbon II is rejected.. they probably will. After the mismanagement of the banking sector, people said they would not vote for them again.. but they probably would. FF have done some very good things for this country and in some ways I'm proud of them but they have not done well enough. I'd prefer give FG a shout if it was possible.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » You have gone off the rails completely on the topic... we aint discussing NAMA or our arsehole government... we are discussing the implications of voting yes or no for Lisbon. If you want to discuss NAMA, then go to this thread that I also setup:http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055670371 Seems like "Fergusman" did a runner on this one... too by the book he is.
akkadian wrote: » As I said, if NAMA is rejected the implications are FF could be ousted. It is very real and possible that this could happen
drunken_munky52 wrote: » Thank you Sherlock, now do you have anything to say about Lisbon without including the topic of sexy Enda Kenny as an alternative leader?
allimac wrote: » The eu has forced aer rianta to close it's duty free operations in Shannon where the concept was invented in the name of fair trade while allowing the French and German motor industries to be propped up by billions by their govts.vote no to the superpowers.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » Yes, another example of how typically state run services are been siphoned off to private interests... whos main concerns and objectives is profit and more profit Now the EU can bend the words are say they want to see us all live in a competitive economy, but this puts the persuit of profit before people always Where does this stop? With the privitisation of our police force eventually... then the world will be run by private military companies (PMCs), when all the resources are used up... war will be the only means of business in the future Stop this in its tracks and vote no
Malty_T wrote: » If we vote no, then it's highly plausible that not near enough action will ever be taken on Global Warming
meglome wrote: » So if I get this right your opinion is now proof?
akkadian wrote: » I'd prefer give FG a shout if it was possible.
theasylumkey wrote: » Not written on a page of paper proof that you cling to so dearly as being gospel from a bunch of elite corrupt politicians?? Sorry thats a No then.......i can use my own intelligence to think for my self & not just what i am being told is so & to fall into line.
meglome wrote: » So if I can clarify you just think it's true and therefore it is? You do see the difference between your opinion and provable fact right?
theasylumkey wrote: » Typical from you......dont address anything else commented on in the Post.......you are not a worthy adversary.
BLITZ_Molloy wrote: » Friend of mine from Dublin did an anti-Lisbon rap. It's a bit paranoid to say the least but quite entertaining.
meglome wrote: » How can I address your points, you just gave your opinion with no backup. Explain your views, show the parts of the treaty they are in and then I'll be able to do what you ask. And your sig is a link to out-of context or misrepresented quotes that have been long since been debunked. However I'm sure that won't stop you.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » The European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR) is a pan-European think tank which conducts research and promotes informed debate across Europe on the development of coherent and effective European values-based foreign policy. It was launched by fifty prominent Europeans in October 2007. ECFR's founding members include former European prime ministers, parliamentarians, business leaders, public intellectuals, and activists, all committed to increasing the EU's role on the world stage. The initiative is headed by Executive Director Mark Leonard, and has offices in five European capitals - Berlin, London, Madrid, Paris, and Sofia. The organisation is supported by billionaire and philanthropist George Soros, along with Sigrid Rausing, the Spanish foundation FRIDE, the Italian UniCredit Group, and the Bulgarian Communitas Foundation. ECFR is not associated with or linked to the American Council on Foreign Relations. ECFR was named the world's "Best New Think Tank in the last five years" by Foreign Policy magazine in its January/February 2009 edition.
