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Child Item

Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

[Deleted User]

Ok phase one of the digital switchover of the main tx Presely used in south east ireland for UK analogue reception has completed.

What has happened ?

BBC 2 analogue is gone.
ITV one Wales analogue has moved to the BBC 2 frequency.

The New high power BBC A mux [with BBC1 ,2 and 3 cbeebies etc] is broadcasting at 20kw erp instead of the previous 1.5kw.

Is reception possible in the south east and will it be reliable?

So far the answer seems to be yes.

On september 16th all analogue from presely will be switched off and channels like ITV one and ch4 and five will be on 20kw muxes and should also be as reliable as the new BBC one mux is now.

Viewers will need to retune their idtv's once again on september 16th to continue to receive the new higher power digital service.

A lot of viewers in co wicklow use a relay Arfon for their UK analogue reception.
This is used for example in wicklow town,much but not all of Arklow and greystones and areas inbetween.
If you still have BBC 2,you are on arfon.
arfon is not changing untill october.
It is only going to be one tenth of the power of presely so it's unclear that it will be as useable.
Some viewers may have the option of switching their aerials from arfon to presely-especially in the arklow area.

To the best of my knowledge,people in Rathdrum are using presely and inland in places like Aughrim and Tinahely also.
My rule of thumb as to whether reliable digital reception will be available to those areas and to those on arfon is pretty much wait and see at this time.
If you usually have fair to good analogue reception,then it is fairly likely that you will have consistent good digital reception.
I'm basing that on the fact that it seems that the new high power digital transmissions from presely remained stable and strong the other day when the analogues were very poor or even unwatchable at my location.

The purpose of this thread is to provide reasonable reliable [but amatuer as I am an amatuer] information on the changeover as it affects wexford,wicklow and probably carlow and Kilkenny and maybe waterford.

By all means ask any questions and I and one or two others here will endeavour to answer them.

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fat-tony

Deleted User wrote: »

A combination of llandonna and Blaenplwyf.

That's what I thought also, but neither of these transmitters are on their full power yet. Llanddona has a bearing of 81 degrees and is 81 miles away, Blaenplwyf has a bearing of 122 degrees from me and is 98 miles away, Preseli is on full power on the BBCA mux on CH43 and has a bearing of 143 degrees and is 102 miles away and I seem to be getting nothing from it

I notice that Preseli is using frequency offsets - wonder if that is causing problems to my Mvision Combo box? I assumed that when I scan a particular UHF channel, that the box looks at offsets from the centre frequency also? I don't see any way to configure the frequencies it's searching. Can anyone confirm reception of Preseli BBCA mux on an Mvision combo box?

If I am picking up signal from the low power mux on Llanddona, even though my aerial is pointing South East instead of East, then maybe that's my best bet for stable reception when the power is increased?

oldbat

The atmospheric conditions will lift signals over any hills and other obstructions and carry them for hundreds of miles. There tends to be some scatter so the direction tends to vary, and the signal is much stronger so it can be recieved side on or from the back of the aerial, so the direction the aerial is pointed in is not a good indicator of the direction of the transmitter!

So you cannot be sure that when it ends, you will have a stable signal from Llanddona.

Llanddona is still well worth trying as it is much closer. It will be full power on 18 November.

[Deleted User]

I've got the low power blaenplwyf dtt signals blasting in today alongside presely.Analogue from there is quite good today.
Presely was quite weak at times yesterday especially last night and subject to frequent fading-that often happens to presely in high pressure conditions.
So I'm not surprised it wasn't available on a search up in greystones when even the high power bbca mux dropped a few times here last night for brief seconds...and thats with satelite grade cabling ,new mha's etc on twin group b's pointed to presely.

For the record llandonna analogue is always very weak down here,it's a rare visitor in hp conditions to presely aerials.

oldbat

Deleted User wrote: »

So I'm not surprised it wasn't available on a search up in greystones when even the high power bbca mux dropped a few times here last night for brief seconds...and thats with satelite grade cabling ,new mha's etc on twin group b's pointed to presely.

That proves how good the weather is.

BBQ time for the first time this 'summer'

Antenna

Deleted User wrote: »

Presely was quite weak at times yesterday especially last night and subject to frequent fading-that often happens to presely in high pressure conditions.

this could be due to interference from more distant transmitters coming in rather than Presely itself fading where you are. A digital channel interfering with an analogue channel would give the impression that the analogue has got weaker. Your DTT on 43 could be breaking up due to either a more distant digital or analogue on the same channel (or a combination of more than one transmitter)
Maybe the cairn hill analogue RTE transmission on 43 is causing the DTT on 43 to break up where you are during high pressure? 43 also in use (for DTT) at Wenvoe in South Wales and might also clash with Presely where you are?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenvoe_transmitting_station

mrdtv

Antenna wrote: »

this could be due to interference from more distant transmitters coming in rather than Presely itself fading where you are. A digital channel interfering with an analogue channel would give the impression that the analogue has got weaker. Your DTT on 43 could be breaking up due to either a more distant digital or analogue on the same channel (or a combination of more than one transmitter)
Maybe the cairn hill analogue RTE transmission on 43 is causing the DTT on 43 to break up where you are during high pressure? 43 also in use (for DTT) at Wenvoe in South Wales and might also clash with Presely where you are?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenvoe_transmitting_station

Very interesting discussion today. However I think tests with a view to establishing service availability need to be done in flat conditions as it can be quite confusing egThe BBC A Ch 25 is probably Caldbeck!! At Greystones I think Llandona, BP or Arfon are better bets as they are closer than Preseli: the thing to do is to establish the analogue quality, peak it and record its bearing. If the receiver doesn't do offsets then you have a problem (most modern ones do this inll be cluding the cheapy ones and good medium priced ones such as the Fortec Stars and Philips DTR220 do it easily..) It shouldn't actually be too much of a problem if you have manual tuning: you set the receiver on the frequency move the antenna round and see what the strength and quality are. The Philips DTR220 reads out the SNR and the BER: £39.99 in the UK. You want SNR in mid twenties and BER effectively zero (its one exp -10 for prefect pictures). The key is to maximise the quality for error free reception.

BTW news reaches me that Caradon Hill is now popping up along the SE Ireland coast and also being received regularly in Milford Haven...

[Deleted User]

Bingo!
Just did a retune and I have ITV one from caradon hill on 803 on my sony w4000

also 1tv2,3,4,ch,more4,e4,ch4+1 etc
None of the bbc channels as yet.
The itv1 just says itv1 in the channel title [whereas presely says itv1 wales] and the programme guide is telling me "The westcountry today is on from 1830-1845]

Signal level is low according to the sony.
I'd need to look at the humax to check the percentages and the uhf channel number.
I've no time for to do that at the moment.

fat-tony

Earlier on we did a bit more aerial tweaking. I lined up on Llanddona CH60 (which is ITV analogue) and got a barely watchable signal. Any of the other analogues from Llanddona are co-channel with the local relay here in Greystones, which is just 2km away from me. I couldn't detect any of the low-power muxes from Llanddona.
A BBCA mux on CH25 was coming in, though, so we swung the aerial to the NW and it's booming in at 71%ss and 95% quality. Having had a look at the EPG and seeing reference to Cumbria, I believe this is Caldbeck. But it's 145 miles away, so it's definitely a freak of the high-pressure "lift".
I feel that, from my location, Llanddona may be the best long-term bet, so I'll try again in November when they turn up the wick on the transmitters.

mrdtv

fat-tony wrote: »

Earlier on we did a bit more aerial tweaking. I lined up on Llanddona CH60 (which is ITV analogue) and got a barely watchable signal. Any of the other analogues from Llanddona are co-channel with the local relay here in Greystones, which is just 2km away from me. I couldn't detect any of the low-power muxes from Llanddona.
A BBCA mux on CH25 was coming in, though, so we swung the aerial to the NW and it's booming in at 71%ss and 95% quality. Having had a look at the EPG and seeing reference to Cumbria, I believe this is Caldbeck. But it's 145 miles away, so it's definitely a freak of the high-pressure "lift".
I feel that, from my location, Llanddona may be the best long-term bet, so I'll try again in November when they turn up the wick on the transmitters.

It will be! The analogues always came in well along the Wicklow/Wexford coast in lift conditions. Caldbeck DSO stations are 100kW on the PSB muxes...

atellyer

Ah well, all temporary welsh digital channels seem to be gone. Summer must be over...:(

marclt

At stage 2 (DSO2) – 16 September 2009

At just after midnight:

At Preseli and all its relays, all analogue services will cease broadcasting permanently;
At Preseli and Ferryside only, existing low powered digital terrestrial television (DTT) multiplexes 2, A, B, C and D will cease broadcasting permanently;
At all transmitters, Mux BBC A will remain on air but will be subject to interruptions and switching breaks.

By the provisionally expected time:

At Preseli only, D3&4, BBC B, SDN, ARQ A and ARQ B will launch;
At Ferryside, SDN will launch;
At all transmitters, the new PSB DSO muxes, D3&4 and BBC B will launch;

The DSO2 process commences soon after midnight, with the provisional schedule as follows:

By 6am, at Preseli transmitter and the following relays - Mynydd Pencarreg, Croeserw HP and VP, Pembroke Dock, Llandysul and Broad Haven.
By mid-morning, at the following relays - Newport Bay, Llwyn Onn, Llandyfriog, Rheola, Ferryside and St Davids.
By mid-afternoon, at the following relays - St Dogmaels, Abergwynfi, Pencader, Ystumtuen, Trefin, Llangranog, Glyncorrwg and Cynwyl Elfed.
By late-afternoon, at the following relays - Tregaron, Haverfordwest, Dolgellau, Llangybi, Duffryn, Bronnant.
By early-evening, at the following relay - Fishguard.

SDN, ARQ A and ARQ B will launch at 64QAM using the 8k transmission mode and final DSO channels.
SDN and ARQ A adopt final post DSO powers at the later technical event on 30th September 2009 (see below).
ARQ B will adopt final post DSO powers at the later technical event on 24th March 2010 (see below).

All PSB multiplexes will launch at 8k and 64QAM, for futher information on transmission modes please click here.

---
On 30 September 2009, there will be a Nationwide autumn retune event (multiplex configuration change). All DTT viewers have to retune their digital equipment. For further information about the national retune please visit the Freeview website.
Additionally, on 30 September 2009 at Preseli, SDN and ARQ A will adopt final DSO powers.
On 24 March 2010 at Preseli, ARQ B will adopt final DSO powers.

[Deleted User]

marclt wrote: »

At stage 2 (DSO2) – 16 September 2009

At just after midnight:
At Preseli and all its relays, all analogue services will cease broadcasting permanently;

At Preseli and Ferryside only, existing low powered digital terrestrial television (DTT) multiplexes 2, A, B, C and D will cease broadcasting permanently;

At all transmitters, Mux BBC A will remain on air but will be subject to interruptions and switching breaks.

By the provisionally expected time:
At Preseli only, D3&4, BBC B, SDN, ARQ A and ARQ B will launch;

At Ferryside, SDN will launch;

At all transmitters, the new PSB DSO muxes, D3&4 and BBC B will launch;

The DSO2 process commences soon after midnight, with the provisional schedule as follows:
By 6am, at Preseli transmitter and the following relays - Mynydd Pencarreg, Croeserw HP and VP, Pembroke Dock, Llandysul and Broad Haven.

By mid-morning, at the following relays - Newport Bay, Llwyn Onn, Llandyfriog, Rheola, Ferryside and St Davids.

By mid-afternoon, at the following relays - St Dogmaels, Abergwynfi, Pencader, Ystumtuen, Trefin, Llangranog, Glyncorrwg and Cynwyl Elfed.

By late-afternoon, at the following relays - Tregaron, Haverfordwest, Dolgellau, Llangybi, Duffryn, Bronnant.

By early-evening, at the following relay - Fishguard.

SDN, ARQ A and ARQ B will launch at 64QAM using the 8k transmission mode and final DSO channels.
SDN and ARQ A adopt final post DSO powers at the later technical event on 30th September 2009 (see below).
ARQ B will adopt final post DSO powers at the later technical event on 24th March 2010 (see below).

All PSB multiplexes will launch at 8k and 64QAM, for futher information on transmission modes please click here.

---
On 30 September 2009, there will be a Nationwide autumn retune event (multiplex configuration change). All DTT viewers have to retune their digital equipment. For further information about the national retune please visit the Freeview website.
Additionally, on 30 September 2009 at Preseli, SDN and ARQ A will adopt final DSO powers.
On 24 March 2010 at Preseli, ARQ B will adopt final DSO powers.

Just to clarify,it will be sept 30th before power increases come into play on the mux carrying itv and channel 4.
Tomorrow all that will happen is that their mux moves to ch 46 on the uhf band and their tx mode changes from 2k 16qam to 8k 32qam.

That will somewhat improve reception but ,the biggest effect will be after sept 30th when they increase power to 20kw erp.

Confusing yes but in short,basically from october onwards preseli digital should be very reliable for most channels.

The Arq a mux containing sky 3,dave and sky news increases to full power from september 30th and is likely to over power mt leinster dtt on ch 45 for anyone wit preseli aerials combined with mt leinster [quite awfull planning by rtenl if that happens which is highly likely.]

The arq b mux containg film 4 etc remains on low power untill march 2010.
It will be sturdier than it is now but not a patch on the rest of the muxes untill it increases its power to match.

Antenna

Is anyone (with reliable reception) going to record the Preseli analogues being switched off?

like here:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhn0ToBU0s

[Deleted User]

Antenna wrote: »

Is anyone (with reliable reception) going to record the Preseli analogues being switched off?

like here:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhn0ToBU0s

Unfortunately theres no fanfare or anything worth recording.
All that happens is - off just like that.
I was watching BBC 2 analogue when that went off

I feel funny for saying this but I will actually miss presely analogue,I always liked a slight bit of grain in the picture

marclt

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately theres no fanfare or anything worth recording.
All that happens is - off just like that.
I was watching BBC 2 analogue when that went off

I feel funny for saying this but I will actually miss presely analogue,I always liked a slight bit of grain in the picture

The end of an era... and of course... digital text just isn't the same as analogue!!

I've just driven passed the transmitter site. Plenty of lights on in the control room... I guess they'll be getting things ready. Once upon a time that place was fully staffed, complete with it's own canteen! All automated now.

[Deleted User]

Itv one wales digital on presely has an on and off banner now explaining that a retune is needed tomorrow and with a helpline number.

[Deleted User]

And there you have it folks.
ITV 1 wales from presely went off air at 0003 am.
s4c went off air and five at ten past midnight.

most of the low power digitals are off now too.

The slightly stronger signals for dtt will be on air in the morning from about 6am but remember that only the bbc a mux and the mux carrying the five channels will be at full wick.

Full wick on itv1 and ch4 wont happen untill sept 30th but there should at least be an improvement already noticeable from the morning as it will be in 8k mode.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

And there you have it folks.
ITV 1 wales from presely went off air at 0003 am.
s4c went off air and five at ten past midnight.

most of the low power digitals are off now too.

The slightly stronger signals for dtt will be on air in the morning from about 6am but remember that only the bbc a mux and the mux carrying the five channels will be at full wick.

Full wick on itv1 and ch4 wont happen untill sept 30th but there should at least be an improvement already noticeable from the morning as it will be in 8k mode.

All PSB muxes, including ITV/C4 are at full power from Preseli this AM. Its the COM muxes which will be increased on the 30th. How's the reception?

Antenna

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel funny for saying this but I will actually miss presely analogue

Especially Ch 37, which was 'Five'.
It got out better than the other 4 (at least to the west) and was also on a relatively clear channel.
A useful 'propagation beacon' the Ch 37 was, traces of signal could be detected much or most of the time at long distance, becoming watchable with good 'lift' conditions.

A pity that a 'skeleton' analogue service of one of the main channels (either BBC1 or ITV) isn't put on 37 for a few more months - which would have been possible considering 37 is not being used for DTT. This would be advantageous for people (especially the elderly) in its coverage area who might run into trouble with STBs - especially if only recently purchased them - they would still have one main channel to watch until any STB problems are resolved.

[Deleted User]

mrdtv wrote: »

All PSB muxes, including ITV/C4 are at full power from Preseli this AM. Its the COM muxes which will be increased on the 30th. How's the reception?

The freeview site is confusing then as is digital uk on that one.

As posted over on digital spy-the high power muxes are very strong.
The new itv mux is at the same strenght received as the BBC A one as I was expecting.
Signal strength on the humax is now above 90% on those.

This will be a reliable service for anyone who had half decent analogue presely reception before.
Drop outs will occur but they should be very rare and associated with extreme high pressure conditions or briefly when bad weather is either approaching or leaving but not all the time in those situations I think just on the very rare occasion.

marclt

I think we could probably do with some reception reports... bit quiet on here today??

prioryc

marclt wrote: »

I think we could probably do with some reception reports... bit quiet on here today??

Reception Today

Noting great to report yet but itv/C4 have moved and have better signal quality on par with BBC signal atm... usually by the end of the day the signals are all back to normal still a bit of interference

[Deleted User]

prioryc wrote: »

Reception Today
Noting great to report yet but itv/C4 have moved and have better signal quality on par with BBC signal atm... usually by the end of the day the signals are all back to normal still a bit of interference

Remember the few days that you lost the other channels and just had the bbc digitals?
Well now if that weather is repeated,you wont lose the itv mux so you'll be able to watch the match that was barely viewable recently that night the analogues were really bad.
Thats the difference.
Drop outs at that power should be very rare

please let as many people know about this as you can as there has been a lot of black propaganda saying this wouldn't be possible.

mrdtv

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember the few days that you lost the other channels and just had the bbc digitals?
Well now if that weather is repeated,you wont lose the itv mux so you'll be able to watch the match that was barely viewable recently that night the analogues were really bad.
Thats the difference.
Drop outs at that power should be very rare

please let as many people know about this as you can as there has been a lot of black propaganda saying this wouldn't be possible.

I always thought it would work provided that:

a) Preseli had an omni HRP pattern. It does for the PSB muxes at least.

b) You got decent analogue. DVB-T 7dB down on analogue (1/5th in lay terms) replicates analogue coverage.

c) Your antenna system is good enough.

d) It will be interesting to see the performance of the Preseli COM muxes on the 30th. Then you'll see if they have any HRP nulls or not.

e) You'll also be futureproofed for UK and Ireland. They'll probably announce the Freeview HD rollout schedule for Wales soon so Preseli viewers will be able to see Freeview HD before Ulster in 2012. So when T2 boxes are available those in SE Ireland buying them will have Freeview, Freeview HD and any future Irish DTT service whether operated as T1 MPEG4 or T2 MPEG4.

This does rather put the cat amongst the pigeons for RTE and the Irish authorities and regulators. A few public demonstrations of reception from Preseli will convince the punters to buy cheapo Freeview boxes, later these can be skipped for T2 boxes. More reception reports please with description of aerial systems.

It is also of note that the forthcoming Divis new mast will be 40 meters taller than the current one and its PSB muxes will have omnidirectional HRP patterns. But not till 2012/2013.

Finally Blackbriar's original question has been answered: its Preseli. This may not be the case for others who will need to use Arfon and I note from DUK's latest annual report that significant antenna works at Blaen-Plwyf are underway and will be completed in time for March 2010. That could be interesting...

prioryc

Deleted User wrote: »

please let as many people know about this as you can as there has been a lot of black propaganda saying this wouldn't be possible.

like here in our dtt website
http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Regional++Reception/aouth+east-UK+analogue+switch+off.htm

mrdtv

prioryc wrote: »

like here in our dtt website
http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Regional++Reception/aouth+east-UK+analogue+switch+off.htm

Note that it only refers to the loss of analogue terrestrial and is very carefully worded. Preseli will be switching to a digital platform: is it going up on Sky? LOL. It doesn't say what you should do but word-of-mouth and demonstrations are so much better!

prioryc

mrdtv wrote: »

Note that it only refers to the loss of analogue terrestrial and is very carefully worded. Preseli will be switching to a digital platform: is it going up on Sky? LOL. It doesn't say what you should do but word-of-mouth and demonstrations are so much better!

I see u spotted that lack of freeview info too (must have forgot it....poor things)
Exactly my point its the lack of information on the uk signals & if i remember Sky had a flyer stating similar misinformation

Digifriendly

mrdtv wrote: »

It is also of note that the forthcoming Divis new mast will be 40 meters taller than the current one and its PSB muxes will have omnidirectional HRP patterns. But not till 2012/2013.

Finally Blackbriar's original question has been answered: its Preseli. This may not be the case for others who will need to use Arfon and I note from DUK's latest annual report that significant antenna works at Blaen-Plwyf are underway and will be completed in time for March 2010. That could be interesting...

Pity Divis isn't 'turning up the juice' earlier but I guess this is due to possible interference with ROI. Regarding Blaen-Plwyf check post 65 on this thread as it suggests that Blaen-Plwyf will be nulled to the west as it is virtually on the coast.

irishtoffee

I am totally lost in this thread.Wright i am in wexford and all my english stations through my aerial went off today.Is there a way to retune them?

prioryc

irishtoffee wrote: »

I am totally lost in this thread.Wright i am in wexford and all my english stations through my aerial went off today.Is there a way to retune them?

If they were good before today u could try a cheapo freeview box or freeview usb tuner from ebay and replace the 5 u lost with the 70 digital ones
see here for more

http://www.freeview.co.uk/

http://shop.ebay.ie/i.html?_nkw=freeview+box&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=freeview&_osacat=0

feel free to ask more here and spread the word