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Child Item

Samurai Swords now banned

cherryghost

So heres the deal, they ban samurai swords in Ireland, thats fair enough I suppose, but people that have them generally have them as an ornament, am I right??

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0901/samurai.html

Last month Mr Ahern described a recent spate of knife attacks as 'very worrying', but he said the Government was working to try to raise awareness in an effort to reduce knife crime.

Right... so banning samurai swords will do what now? I normally dont see young punk kids flailing around samurai swords injuring each other, nor do I recollect any incident whatsoever in Ireland regarding samurai swords. I think its just plain stupid tbh. Opinions?

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cherryghost

oh well that changes EVERYTHING :rolleyes:

gavney

Manic Moran wrote: »

How about cheese-wire then? You don't really need it to cut cheese, after all, you can quite adequately cut cheese with a knife, so why have something that you can use to garotte someone lying around?

There is a point wherin people should become responsible for their own actions, not the State.

NTM

Ok, I really don't think I'm making myself clear- I am NOT saying that banning samurai swords is justifiable on the basis of their lack of practical purpose or potential for harm. What I AM saying is that I can see why a government minister would want to protect HIMSELF from future public backlashes if a murder or two were two occur with a samurai sword.

Again, to use your cheese-wire example. Very well- you're right- cheese wire isn't really a useful practical thing but IS potentially dangerous. BUT if someone gets murdered using cheese wire- is there going to be a public backlash where people blame the government for not banning cheesewire? NO! I really doubt it. Would there be with a couple of samurai sword killings? PROBABLY

Morlar

gavney wrote: »

if someone gets murdered using cheese wire- is there going to be a public backlash where people blame the government for not banning cheesewire? NO! I really doubt it. Would there be with a couple of samurai sword killings? PROBABLY

I disagree with that, I think if someone was murdered by a scumbag using a samurai sword the media would jump all over it; filling airwaves with ill thought out, kneejerk-reactionary, short-term thinking along the lines of 'hollywood to blame' 'death swords must be banned' type of drivel. Pandering to this level of drivel is not the role of an effective coherent govt.

Unfortunately our current excuse for a govt (inc the greens who are sharing power with a -3% support among the electorate) is staggering from crisis to crisis and seem to have no actual coherent, thought out, structured, long term approach to any form of social problems in Ireland whether it is street crime or wider social problems. They knee jerk react in a way designed to keep the largest number of voters off their backs facilitated by the media in Ireland who imo rank among the lowest in europe.

gavney

Morlar wrote: »

I disagree with that, I think if someone was murdered by a scumbag using a samurai sword the media would jump all over it; filling airwaves with ill thought out, kneejerk-reactionary, short-term thinking along the lines of 'hollywood to blame' 'death swords must be banned' type of drivel. Pandering to this level of drivel is not the role of an effective coherent govt.

Unfortunately our current excuse for a govt (inc the greens who are sharing power with a -3% support among the electorate) is staggering from crisis to crisis and seem to have no actual coherent, thought out, structured, long term approach to any form of social problems in Ireland whether it is street crime or wider social problems. They knee jerk react in a way designed to keep the largest number of voters off their backs facilitated by the media in Ireland who imo rank among the lowest in europe.

yes, i agree, it would be the media that would jump all over it. But what does the media always, without exception try to represent? Predominant Public opinion I presume.

In all truth, I actually agree with everything you just said, I don't really think it conflicts with what I've already been saying. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think the banning of samurai swords is actually going to solve any crime problems.

I just think (and I may be completely wrong) that both government and media try to represent their public as much as possible (that's all they can do). And of course, public are influenced by the media in return- I'm not sure who influences who more- it's anyone's guess really.
And Sure, the media can put a spin on something, but it's only a spin- it has to appeal to something in the public's mind

My guess (and it's only a guess)- is that the political outcome of this ban is really going to be:

1. 30% of people praising the move, as they see nothing but harm to be done by a Samurai Sword and after all "sword" sounds dangerous.

2. 65.5% of people not giving a toss either way

3. 0.5% of harmless samurai sword collectors feeling (rightly so) hard done by.

4. 4% of people getting angered by a completely pointless move by the government

If you were a government minister (or a newspaper editor)- which group are you going to aim your attention at?

Morlar

gavney wrote: »

If you were a government minister (or a newspaper editor)- which group are you going to aim your attention at?

How about they instead work from the facts of the problems to do with violent crime and the ways in which to decrease it.

Bringing in legislation which impacts sword collectors/owners is short sighted and cosmetic.

Scumbags will use ashtrays, pint glasses and kitchen knives, baseball bats etc.

My take on this is that they are a) fairly confident they wont get caught, b) fairly confident that IF they do get caught (and it makes it to court) nothing too exceptionally bad is going to come their way.

The usual sob stories about deprived childhoods, bad parents, blah blah, a meagre sentence with part already suspended, then a further part suspended providing they dont kill anyone while in prison. Roll forward to when they leave their prisons with tv's mobiles etc and are back on the streets with even less respect for the criminal justice system. People keep saying 'long prison sentences do not actually work', whatever studies that view point is based on are probably either loaded or irrelevant in an Irish context. I think its about time we tried it rather than waste time with silly nanny state manoeuvres.

sneakerfreak

THANK CHRIST

NO MORE LATE NIGHT SAMURAI TTACKS

THANK YOU FIANNA FAIL

NOW I CAN BEGIN TO LIVE MY LIFE WITHOUT FEAR OF THE SHOGUN

gavney

Morlar wrote: »

How about they instead work from the facts of the problems to do with violent crime and the ways in which to decrease it.

Bringing in legislation which impacts sword collectors/owners is short sighted and cosmetic.

Scumbags will use ashtrays, pint glasses and kitchen knives, baseball bats etc.

My take on this is that they are a) fairly confident they wont get caught, b) fairly confident that IF they do get caught (and it makes it to court) nothing too exceptionally bad is going to come their way.

The usual sob stories about deprived childhoods, bad parents, blah blah, a meagre sentence with part already suspended, then a further part suspended providing they dont kill anyone while in prison. Roll forward to when they leave their prisons with tv's mobiles etc and are back on the streets with even less respect for the criminal justice system. People keep saying 'long prison sentences do not actually work', whatever studies that view point is based on are probably either loaded or irrelevant in an Irish context. I think its about time we tried it rather than waste time with silly nanny state manoeuvres.

Ok, again, I agree with everything you've just said.

In a way I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I still think that at least part of the fault lies with the general public and how they react to certain crimes. I know you might correctly aim the blame at the criminal and not the instrument (i.e. samurai sword)- but alot of people don't- and will blame the instrument and subsequently the legislation and/or government which allows this instrument to be available. This is why I have a certain amount of sympathy for the Ahern here. Either way, he's going to be fighting a war on all sides- and while the move in question is by no means a solution to any crimes- it's certainly an understandable move from the point of view of protecting himself from future criticism.

Obviously, they need to make more sweeping changes in the way violent crimes are treated. I genuinely DON'T believe that Dermot Ahern was hoping to solve alot of knife crime problems by banning samurai swords. It's just my personal opinion that the guy can't be that stupid (at least I hope not- I could be entirely wrong).

marko91

as if we all stroll around with hidden samurai swords for protection:pac:their only ornaments so whats the big fuss?

anonymous_joe

marko91 wrote: »

as if we all stroll around with hidden samurai swords for protection:pac:their only ornaments so whats the big fuss?

Swords were the pinnacle of military technology for a couple of thousand years though. :pac:

It's merely a PR exercise from the government who want to cover their asses.

Coriolanus

Are we supposed to be handing them in to the guards now, or is it just the sale of new ones that's forbidden?

OK-Cancel-Apply

Bad news for nerds everywhere

karlog

Nevore wrote: »

Are we supposed to be handing them in to the guards now, or is it just the sale of new ones that's forbidden?

If you already own one you dont have to hand it in. You'd actually be a bit of a sap if you did.

El Siglo

If Lenihan had been put into a situation like this:

Then he wouldn't have banned Samurai swords!:D

Overheal

Nevore wrote: »

Are we supposed to be handing them in to the guards now, or is it just the sale of new ones that's forbidden?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61949336&postcount=242

[Deleted User]

gavney wrote: »

Ok, I really don't think I'm making myself clear- I am NOT saying that banning samurai swords is justifiable on the basis of their lack of practical purpose or potential for harm. What I AM saying is that I can see why a government minister would want to protect HIMSELF from future public backlashes if a murder or two were two occur with a samurai sword.

I'd much rather see government ministers trying to do something about the rise of knife crime in the country rather than passing laws simply so that it looks like they are doing something.

Banning ornamental samurai swords is going to have no effect on crime in this country and given that most of these supposed weapons can't cut butter it seems to be a complete and utterly pointless ban. What will they ban next, letter openers?

gavney

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd much rather see government ministers trying to do something about the rise of knife crime in the country rather than passing laws simply so that it looks like they are doing something.

Banning ornamental samurai swords is going to have no effect on crime in this country and given that most of these supposed weapons can't cut butter it seems to be a complete and utterly pointless ban. What will they ban next, letter openers?

Yes, so would I rather see more solid, effective moves made about knife crime. But I'm just trying to say that the government is going be publicly attacked for NOT banning samurai swords by stupid people, so I'm defending their right to defend themselves from criticism.

And, to reiterate what I already said, I doubt that Ahern really thinks that this is going to solve crime problems. Unless he's a complete idiot- which I don't think he is. I mean, I'm sure he knows, that if a criminal really wanted to get his hands on a samurai sword, he's going to get one.

In short- in my mind, criticize him all you like for not introducing other moves to deal with knife crime. But don't criticize him for trying to defend himself from brainless criticism.

RMD

Next thing you know the only legal things will be butter knives. At least they've created an exemption so collectors and martial arts clubs aren't effected.

Nodin

gavney wrote: »

In short- in my mind, criticize him all you like for not introducing other moves to deal with knife crime. But don't criticize him for trying to defend himself from brainless criticism.

So we should congratulate him on bowing down to mindless nonsense and playing to the lowest common denominator.....

I've an idea - we replace Joe Duffy with him, and whoever gets on 1st on a Friday and says "I'm a mother....." gets to ban the thing that makes them scared forever.

gavney

Nodin wrote: »

So we should congratulate him on bowing down to mindless nonsense and playing to the lowest common denominator.....

No, not congratulate. Just understand that his position isn't the same as yours

Nodin

gavney wrote: »

No, not congratulate. Just understand that his position isn't the same as yours

Yes, I suffer fools badly, if not at all, he believes in using his position to pander to them and foist more kneejerk legislation on the country. I sort of gathered that at the outset.

gavney

But just imagine you're in his position, and some young lad gets stabbed to death by someone using a samurai sword (which has happened). And the mother of the murdered boy and all her friends start a public outcry, calling for the ban of samurai swords. And I've heard talk on certain late night chat shows about how "swords" should be banned, albeit illogical.

Are you really gonna respond by saying "Listen, Mrs. Brady, I think it's tragic what happened to your son, but really, the criminal is the one at fault, not the implement. So, we're doing our best to tackle knife crime through other methods. Sorry again about your son".

I don't think anyone is capable of such a level-headed response

Dyr

gavney wrote: »

But just imagine you're in his position, and some young lad gets stabbed to death by someone using a samurai sword (which has happened).

Happened? When?

And while we're at it could whoever it was claimed they knew someone in dublin who was murdered with a samurai sword post details or just admit that they're spoof merchants or something? That'd be grea,t thanks

Nodin

gavney wrote: »

Are you really gonna respond by saying "Listen, Mrs. Brady, I think it's tragic what happened to your son, but really, the criminal is the one at fault, not the implement. So, we're doing our best to tackle knife crime through other methods. Sorry again about your son".

They do it in the states all the time.

Morlar

gavney wrote: »

But just imagine you're in his position, and some young lad gets stabbed to death by someone using a samurai sword (which has happened). And the mother of the murdered boy and all her friends start a public outcry, calling for the ban of samurai swords. And I've heard talk on certain late night chat shows about how "swords" should be banned, albeit illogical.

Are you really gonna respond by saying "Listen, Mrs. Brady, I think it's tragic what happened to your son, but really, the criminal is the one at fault, not the implement. So, we're doing our best to tackle knife crime through other methods. Sorry again about your son".

I don't think anyone is capable of such a level-headed response

The other side of that coin is that we waste time and energy trying to child proof the universe and ban any single thing that has ever been used to kill somone, including cars, forks, ashtrays, paperweights, powertools and so on.

I don't remember the story you are referring to where anybody was even killed by a samurai sword. Hardly an epidemmic in any event.

Why not put the person who did the killing away forever instead of what they happened to use ?

That way it wont matter what they used as they wont be released to do it again anyway. And their little scumbag friends will think twice once they realise they will be visiting the scumbag in mountjoy not just every month for the next 7 years but for a full life=life kind of sentence. That would deter them more than this ban. Not to mention the fact that guns are already banned and these bans do not affect or deter scumbags anyway.

Manic Moran

Nodin wrote: »

They do it in the states all the time.

Oh, believe me, we have our share of knee-jerk legislation over here as well.

"Hey, let's ban this because it looks scary" (Assault Weapons Ban)
Seriously.

When California was developing the Roberti-Roos act after the Hollywood Shootout, they decided how to ban various firearms by sitting down in front of a picture book, and banning the ones they didn't like the look of. We even know which book they used, because they transcribed the same typo from one page, and banned one rifle that didn't exist because they mis-read a caption on another picture.

The rifle used in the shootout wasn't covered.

NTM

Donny5

Manic Moran wrote: »

The rifle used in the shootout wasn't covered.

NTM

What was the rifle used? An AR-15 or something? If so, is Colt a big employer is California?

Ross_Mahon

Hattori Hanzō will be out of business now

Phototoxin

The other side of that coin is that we waste time and energy trying to child proof the universe and ban any single thing that has ever been used to kill somone, including cars, forks, ashtrays, paperweights, powertools and so on.

I don't remember the story you are referring to where anybody was even killed by a samurai sword. Hardly an epidemmic in any event.

They wont ban cars cigarettes or alcohol though as they make too much money... I guarantee if we lived in a country where everyone was buying lots of swords and they were heavily taxed there'd be the 'blame the criminal not his tool' approach

ScumLord

Overheal wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61949336&postcount=242

So basically it's only the really, really dangerous swords that are still legal. :pac:

gavney

Bambi wrote: »

Happened? When?

Apologies, the example I was thinking of was from Belfast, 2006, not anywhere in the Republic. Here it is, anyway

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=48087

But there have been some violent attacks in the Republic of late, e.g.

Man had hand cut off, Dublin, 2008

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/sword-attacker-sliced-off-victims-left-hand-1686405.html

And recently a guy stabbed in neck, in Baldoyle recently- if you scroll to the end here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1089675/Father-killed-samurai-sword-attack-neighbours-clashed-childs-football.html

Limerick attack 2006

http://news.myhome.ie/newspaper/ireland/2007/1217/1197544025792.html

And I know it's a much larger country, with more knife crime problems, but there's plenty examples from the UK.

Man murdered, London, 2008
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1089675/Father-killed-samurai-sword-attack-neighbours-clashed-childs-football.html

Gang murder, Wales, 2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4766438.stm

Man attacks GF, York, England, 2009

http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/north-east-news/2009/08/23/sentence-increased-samurai-sword-attack-man-79310-24508052/