West-By-Bus: A New Group to campaign for bus transport in the West

I've flown out of there once. It is a short runway (also bumpy).

Chris_533976 wrote: »

If the whole of the Atlantic Corridor is built then Knock airport should be closed and its services moved to Galway. Theres absolutely no need for both. Edit: Or even move Galway airport to Knock, as Galway will be 1 hour from Shannon.

Galway Airport will be unused within two years . The PSO routes will be pulled once the contract is up in around July 21st, 2011 because that is when the PSO contract runs out . The motorway will be built form north of Gort by then.

As Knock is the only decent airport in the NW ( bar Derry) best leave that and close Galway and Sligo and Castlefin...save for club and recreational flying maybe .

Mind you recreational flying did not save Castlebar airport 8 years ago .

Maybe both Galway and Knock are to follow Castlebar into oblivion, leaving us with Shannon and :eek: This :eek:

Judgement Day

I think this is a great thread and now all we need for all the anti-rail nutters to abandon the WRC thread and join this one!

Some of you, and you know who I mean, are quite priceless - you don't use buses but want to say how the services should be operated!! Just like the train spotters in the Irish Railway Record Society who like to pontificate about how trains should be run and then spend their time chasing them around the country (by car) to get photographs.

Anyhoos . Back to reality.

Galway is the only city with any form of bus integraton in Ireland . It is served by 3 or 4 large private operators , 2 of whom offer more or less 24 hour services to Dublin .

City Services in Eyre Square / Private Buses in Forster St and BE in the station form a triangle no more than 1/4 mile across .

A key missing factor in properly integrating them is Ticketing , the privates and BE and City Bus / BE Galway City Services are all different .

The Galway model of having private and public coach termini situated very close by would suit Sligo and Limerick , thereby developing viable hubs with good route diversity .

As for rural areas there should be some way of developing semi scheduled hackney minibuses so that they get the elderly people at least and feed into other services .

munchkin_utd

What the west needs (if you were to ask me) is a common agreed coordinated timetable between bus and rail like is common on the continent.

I had the "pleasure" of a trek by bus from Derry to Cork at christmas and what struck me was that across the board there was no attempt made to connect from rail to bus. The busses dont stop at the stations let alone be coordinated with the trains.
CIE runs the 2 companies but their modus operandi is to put each other out of business.
Perverted almost. Why cant they work together? Forget that. Just force them to work together anyhow.

If any of you have tried to figure your options from say Dublin to enniscrone (in Sligo, 10 miles from Ballina, Mayo) you'll know what I suggesting. Simply put, the local busses should connect with the long distance trains (not only with busses, which suits bus eireann)
But they dont.

And if you want to find out if its even feasable to use a train and connect to a bus to your end destination, its a pain to figure if theres actually an onward bus connection. I'm good with timetables and I find it hard. To Joe Public they wont even try or consider it.

So what I'm saying is that when you arrive in Ballina Station (or other western train station), you should be greeted with the sight of your connecting bus, and you should be able to know in advance that there will be one (or not if thats the case).

So anyhow, you are probably right to focus on the busses as if they were optimised to be more useful, more coordinated, more connected, than they already are, it'll much more of a step forward than the WRC.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Anyhoos . Back to reality.

Galway is the only city with any form of bus integraton in Ireland . It is served by 3 or 4 large private operators , 2 of whom offer more or less 24 hour services to Dublin .

City Services in Eyre Square / Private Buses in Forster St and BE in the station form a triangle no more than 1/4 mile across .

A key missing factor in properly integrating them is Ticketing , the privates and BE and City Bus / BE Galway City Services are all different .

The Galway model of having private and public coach termini situated very close by would suit Sligo and Limerick , thereby developing viable hubs with good route diversity .

As for rural areas there should be some way of developing semi scheduled hackney minibuses so that they get the elderly people at least and feed into other services .

I know the unions would never allow it but I have long whined about how the bus station (BE) and coach station (Citylink etc) are 1/4 of a mile from each other. They should be in the same building, or at the very least have a covered walkway between them.

The coaches arrive in to the coach station and everyone has to walk to Eyre Square.

Also, despite the fact that several BE buses and Red Buses pass outside it, noone has thought to put a bus stop outside and integrate it.

The coach station is great though but unfortunately you have to pay for the toilets. A good money maker since Citylink to Cork is no-pee.

westtip

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think this is a great thread and now all we need for all the anti-rail nutters to abandon the WRC thread and join this one!

Some of you, and you know who I mean, are quite priceless - you don't use buses but want to say how the services should be operated!! Just like the train spotters in the Irish Railway Record Society who like to pontificate about how trains should be run and then spend their time chasing them around the country (by car) to get photographs.

JD a bit below the belt old chap - I have never taken a photo of a train in my life. yes I have been on a bus, but do use my car most of the time, however I have a student daughter very reliant on buses and trains, I would use the bus to Knock if going away for more than a week - and did not want to leave my car there. Just because one doesn't actually use buses on a daily basis it doesn't mean you cant contribute with intelligent thinking and debate about how they should be run - and if they were better you might use them!! You don't have to be sick after all to comment on possible improvements in healthcare!!

What is most annoying about Western Transport is that could be made so much more effective and could even save money if just a little thought was applied.

Imagine if we had regular bus service going Galway - Tuam - Claremoriss Train Station - Knock Airport - Sligo - Donegal Town - Ballybofey - Letterkenny - Derry - Derry Airport. That one service would integrate Bus, Rail and Air Transport throughout the Northwestern region. It would provide fast / efficient transport between the major towns and cities in the North west. Any additional cost in running this service would be more than offset by the elimination of three PSO's i.e. Galway - Dublin, Sligo - Dublin, Donegal - Dublin. It is also likely to increase traffic at Knock and Derry airports which would reduce their dependency on Governments handouts. Significant improvements could be made with just a little thought, minimal outlay and 1 properly run bus route.

Good Point Gunbarrel .

I would consider the key points to be

Cork Airport
Cork
Limerick
Shannon Airport
Ennis
Galway
Tuam
Knock Airport
Sligo
Donegal Town
Derry
Derry Airport

Whether it was Feda to the north and Citylink to the south would not bother me with integrated ticketing and with wifi buses nowadays fed by 3g there must be an uplink where the driver could send and receive booking data .

And I would divert some PSO cash into it to get the systems running , yes.

serfboard

gunbarrel wrote: »

What is most annoying about Western Transport is that could be made so much more effective and could even save money if just a little thought was applied.

Imagine if we had regular bus service going Galway - Tuam - Claremoriss Train Station - Knock Airport - Sligo - Donegal Town - Ballybofey - Letterkenny - Derry - Derry Airport. That one service would integrate Bus, Rail and Air Transport throughout the Northwestern region. It would provide fast / efficient transport between the major towns and cities in the North west. Any additional cost in running this service would be more than offset by the elimination of three PSO's i.e. Galway - Dublin, Sligo - Dublin, Donegal - Dublin. It is also likely to increase traffic at Knock and Derry airports which would reduce their dependency on Governments handouts. Significant improvements could be made with just a little thought, minimal outlay and 1 properly run bus route.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Good Point Gunbarrel .

I would consider the key points to be

Cork Airport
Cork
Limerick
Shannon Airport
Ennis
Galway
Tuam
Knock Airport
Sligo
Donegal Town
Derry
Derry Airport

I would like to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread so far, and for managing to keep the discussion from going off-topic and personal. A very interesting debate.

Let me clarify something for people who may question the motivation here. I, for one, am not anti-rail. In fact, I love trains (though not in that sense

) I simply believe that train transport should be used where appropriate, and bus transport where it is appropriate. Given the population density of the West of Ireland, Bus Transport is most appropriate. (On the subject of rail, I have believed for a long time, that the track between Athlone and Portarlington should be double-tracked - so that trains coming between Mayo/Roscommon/Galway and Dublin don't have to spend long periods in the sidings or in stations waiting for other trains to pass).

I also believe that where other modes of transport do exist (rail and air) that every effort should be made to integrate the bus service along with them. I do agree with others about the future of Galway, Sligo and Donegal airports - I don't believe they have any. As posters above have said, the Western Seaboard is more than adequately catered for with Cork, Shannon, Knock and Derry airports. We do not need "an airport in every county", nor can we afford it.

As for the point about some contributors not using public transport and then lobbying for it, I see no inconsistency here. For public transport to be used it must be (fairly) frequent, reliable, and effective in terms of time and cost. If that happens, more people will be confident of using it. Added to that, more bus lanes in town/city centres will force people into using public transport if it is provided. Unless of course, they prefer to sit queueing in their cars - wasting time and money.

My gut instinct is that a good bus frequency and city centre to city centre is viable ( it costs a fortune to park in Galway City ...€2.20 - €2.50 an hour) although it would be difficult on the Galway - Derry corridor to justify frequency in the absence of a PSO mechanism .

Galway - Dublin and Galway Cork are high frequency modern and comfortable . If Derry- Galway is brought up there then we are getting somewhere . I would mandate toilets on these buses TBH .

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Good Point Gunbarrel .

I would consider the key points to be

Cork Airport
Cork
Limerick
Shannon Airport
Ennis
Galway
Tuam
Knock Airport
Sligo
Donegal Town
Derry
Derry Airport

Whether it was Feda to the north and Citylink to the south would not bother me with integrated ticketing and with wifi buses nowadays fed by 3g there must be an uplink where the driver could send and receive booking data .

And I would divert some PSO cash into it to get the systems running , yes.

I would consider there to be a few other key places that you have missed out on Sponge Bob. To your list I would add Westport, Castlebar, Ballina and Claremorris in Mayo. As I have already stated having buses serving Claremorris would see bus and rail integrated and the other key Mayo towns would be served along with Roscommon and Athlone. IMO people from the West who want to go to Athlone should be linked to the nearest train station on the Galway or Mayo line whereby they can get a train to Athlone. If they are closer to Sligo then train to Longford, bus Longford to Athlone. Integration is key.

I would also add Letterkenny as it is the biggest town in Donegal as well as having a third level institute in it.

Finally I would Athlone as it is the Gateway between much of the West and the East. That is why I think that in order for transport in the West to succeed fully then Athlone needs to be used as a key Transport hub.

You are beginning to make the buses wander way too much Gunbarrel.

I will add Claremorris, only !

Westport and Ballina, absolutely not . They will be on spurs from Sligo and Claremorris and Letterkenny from Derry or Ballybofey . So will Killybegs and Lahinch and Kilkee and Listowel and Macroom , etc .

The first step is to create a backbone route with a good frequency .

westtip

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The first step is to create a backbone route with a good frequency .

Which is why the N17/18 upgrade is so important, compared to other projects discussed at length on another thread - u no WOT.

gunbarrel wrote: »

What is most annoying about Western Transport is that could be made so much more effective and could even save money if just a little thought was applied.

Imagine if we had regular bus service going Galway - Tuam - Claremoriss Train Station - Knock Airport - Sligo - Donegal Town - Ballybofey - Letterkenny - Derry - Derry Airport. That one service would integrate Bus, Rail and Air Transport throughout the Northwestern region. It would provide fast / efficient transport between the major towns and cities in the North west. Any additional cost in running this service would be more than offset by the elimination of three PSO's i.e. Galway - Dublin, Sligo - Dublin, Donegal - Dublin. It is also likely to increase traffic at Knock and Derry airports which would reduce their dependency on Governments handouts. Significant improvements could be made with just a little thought, minimal outlay and 1 properly run bus route.

Knock airport key time of the day is the operational four hours between 11.30 am and 15.30 pm - there is a shuttle service to Dublin in the morning but this is largely used by business people driving to the airport for a day trip.

The first flight goes to Luton at 11.35 am and the last flight goes out at 15.35 to Stanstead - there is a mix inbetween of flights to East Midland, Bristol, Lanzorote, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool etc (no flights to Scotland at the moment), these are a mix of 7 day services and 3 or 4 days a week services. If even the regular buses going up and down the N5 and the N18 scheduled a stop at Knock between the hours of 10.45 and 15.30 it would be a start -

Here is just one example: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1233309217-22.pdf

The Ballina Dublin bus at 11.00 am pulls into Charlestown at 11.36, it could be up to Knock and back on the N5 going east again with no more than 20 minutes added to the journey - arriving Knock say 11.45 and back on the N5 by 11.55, the 13.00 Dublin - Ballina Bus could do the same arriving Knock Airport at 13.45 - this woudl serve the flights in the afternoon to Birmingham, East Mids, Manchester, GAtwick and Stanstread. BE would only have to change these two midday buses - my guess is they are not that well patronised in any event.

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202290296-64.pdf

The Galway -sligo bus route 64 has several departures during the day but only needs 2 to be diverted to Knock AP the 09.00 out of Galway gets to Kilkelly at 10.25 and 10.40 in Charlestown - for a ten minute diversion off the N17 it could call to knock at 10.30, perfect for the Luton flight at 11.35 probably a bit early for the after lunc flights, the next one out is at 12.00 could get to Knock AP at about 13.30 - if this bus was changed to an 11.30 out Galway it would be a fine early afternoon service to Kncok arrivign at 13.00- ok for the afternoon flites to brum east mids and London gatwick and stanstead- just look at the timetable on the knock airport website- and it is only the buses passing the ariport at the key time of 11.00 am until 15.30 pm that need to make this diversion. If BE changed none of their departure timetables apart from the few buses driving past on the N17 between 11.00 am and 15.30 pm it woudld be a step in the right direction and if the busess passing through Charleston did the same it would be easily done.

The same applies to buses from Sligo travelling in the other direction

I recall back in February having a Ryanair flight cancelled at short notice because the incoming plane could not land due to fog - now I am not getting into lets have a go at Ryanair as they offered us our money back or a flight the next morning or a flight out of Dublin later than night (but you had to make your own way there!) - I just got my money back and went home - but others needed to fly and were looking for transport to Dublin - So if one of the Dublin bound buses from say Ballina, Castlebar/Westport had been calling at knock AP people could have got their money back have a new booking from Ryanair and be on there way on the bus to Dublin - at times like that a bus service is needed.

IT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE IS IT!

gunbarrel wrote: »

I would consider there to be a few other key places that you have missed out on Sponge Bob. To your list I would add Westport, Castlebar, Ballina and Claremorris ...

I think Sponge bob is focusing on one priority N/S route, but there is a separate issue about bus routes E/W as you've pointed out. Ballina - Dublin follows a fast direct route on the N5 but Castlebar / Westport passengers haver to endure a 5 hour tour of every village in Connacht.

In line with the N17 route it would make far more sense if mainline buses served direct routes from the main towns with local feeder services. Recent discussion about utalising school buses or post service as a rural feeder service is also interesting.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You are beginning to make the buses wander way too much Gunbarrel.

I will add Claremorris, only !

Westport and Ballina, absolutely not . They will be on spurs from Sligo and Claremorris and Letterkenny from Derry or Ballybofey . So will Killybegs and Lahinch and Kilkee and Listowel and Macroom , etc .

The first step is to create a backbone route with a good frequency .

Sorry Sponge Bob I read your post wrong. I thought you meant all those towns were the key towns in the West, not just along the bus route. I was not proposing the bus stop at any of them other than Letterkenny, besides the Mayo towns and Athlone are already catered for by the train.

Now that you have added Claremorris the only difference I would have with you is the inclusion of Letterkenny but we can agree to disagree for the moment.

I think this route would be the most important route at the moment as it would be one that the others would link of.

However, I would see no reason for a bus route between Claremorris and Westport / Ballina. The route is already served by train and we should be looking to maximimum use of existing infrastructure. Maybe this bus service already exists but running extra trains between Athlone and Mayo might be a better option in the long run as it could link up with the Galway - Dublin Train at Athlone as well as linking all the towns along the line to the existing transport system. It should not all be about buses if there is an existing train line. That is my opinion.

westtip wrote: »

Which is why the N17/18 upgrade is so important, compared to other projects discussed at length on another thread - u no WOT.

Knock airport key time of the day is the operational four hours between 11.30 am and 15.30 pm - there is a shuttle service to Dublin in the morning but this is largely used by business people driving to the airport for a day trip.

The first flight goes to Luton at 11.35 am and the last flight goes out at 15.35 to Stanstead - there is a mix inbetween of flights to East Midland, Bristol, Lanzorote, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool etc (no flights to Scotland at the moment), these are a mix of 7 day services and 3 or 4 days a week services. If even the regular buses going up and down the N5 and the N18 scheduled a stop at Knock between the hours of 10.45 and 15.30 it would be a start -

Here is just one example: http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1233309217-22.pdf

The Ballina Dublin bus at 11.00 am pulls into Charlestown at 11.36, it could be up to Knock and back on the N5 going east again with no more than 20 minutes added to the journey - arriving Knock say 11.45 and back on the N5 by 11.55, the 13.00 Dublin - Ballina Bus could do the same arriving Knock Airport at 13.45 - this woudl serve the flights in the afternoon to Birmingham, East Mids, Manchester, GAtwick and Stanstread. BE would only have to change these two midday buses - my guess is they are not that well patronised in any event.

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202290296-64.pdf

The Galway -sligo bus route 64 has several departures in the morning and early afternoon from Galway that could call to knock airport eg: the 10.00 out of Galway gets to Kilkelly at 11.25 and 11.40 in Charlestown - for a ten minute diversion off the N17 it could call to knock at 11.30, just look at the timetable - and it is only the buses passing the ariport at the key time of 11.00 am until 15.30 pm that need to make this diversion.

The same applies to buses from Sligo travelling in the other direction

IT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE IS IT!

What you say here makes a lot of sense, simple changes, potentially big rewards.

The reason I propose the other bus service is that in order to entice people to use integrated transport, I feel, you need to keep the stops between changes to a minimum and each stop should be able to justify itself.

If Galway people are to be encouraged to use Knock Airport then the stops between Galway and Knock must not be too frequent so that the service is sufficiently fast.

Tuam is a justifiable stop as it is a growing town (counting out this brief recession) and with nearly 10,000 people should provide a good number of customers.

Claremorris is justified by its connection to the Mayo - Dublin train line and the connections that this provides.

Knock Airport is justified because its a feckin airport with over half a million customers per year.

It is important that there be no stops between Sligo and Knock Airport as this provides for an express service betwee the two which would eliminate any justification for a PSO at Sligo Airport.

And so on with all the other towns. The reason I would opt for such a service over adding Knock airport to the traditional services is that it would be quicker and more reliable which would, in my opinion, lead to greater use.

jkmanc1974

The bus stop in Claremorris is being moved to the Railway Station from its current location shortly apparently now that the swimming pool is open(where buses stop at present)

Brgds
Johnny

Saw an article in todays Times/Examiner saying Ireland West had it's busiest day ever with over 5300 using the airport last Friday, total 81,000 in August. That's a lot of car and taxi journeys that could have been accommodated more efficiently on public transport.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/ryanair-passenger-traffic-rises-19-100129.html

Mrs OBumble

How much clout do taxi drivers have in Irish society?

I can't help but wonder if some of the madness is due to their fear of losing business? (eg they must make a killing on Galway airport).

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/10834

The problem is nothing to do with the airport parking or taxis, it's down to Bus Eireann and the DOT. The airport chairman has been in the media complaining about it several times:

"We are heading for the longest wait for a bus in history, because these inter urban services were meant to connect with the airport in 2005 and nothing has happened since.”

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/14068

munchkin_utd

jkmanc1974 wrote: »

The bus stop in Claremorris is being moved to the Railway Station from its current location shortly apparently now that the swimming pool is open(where buses stop at present)

indeed

from Mayo Advertiser APRIL 10, 2009.

With the impending opening of the new swimming pool in Claremorris, Fianna Fáil councillor Pat McHugh questioned the feasibility of moving the bus stops in the town from their current locations beside the swimming pool and the church to beside the train station, at this week’s local electoral area committee.

We now have a large car park beside the train station which is underused and it would be the prefect location for the bus stop in the town and would lead to an interlinking of the two items of public transport in the town.”

Cllr McHugh’s suggestion received positive support from the council executive with director of services Seamus Granahan telling the meeting: “We’ll definitely make contact with CIE to talk about this, it’s something that we should have a look at.” Senior engineer Tom Ferrick also spoke favourably of the suggestion.

jkmanc1974

JustMary wrote: »

How much clout do taxi drivers have in Irish society?

I can't help but wonder if some of the madness is due to their fear of losing business? (eg they must make a killing on Galway airport).

Agreed ref the Galway airport point - used to get charged 30 Euro from the airport to Athenry every 2nd Friday night at one stage.....

Brgds
Johnny

I hope the OP goes ahead and sets up a lobby group for improved public transport in the West. Some of the articles posted on here have shown that such a group is definitely needed to support Knock's call for buses to stop there and Claremorris' decision to relocate the bus stop to the train station. As these issues arise there is definitely a need for a public voice to be heard.

I was reading this article earlier which outlines many of the difficulties that the Government or Government companies have thrown Knock's way. Despite these obstacles Knock has experienced continued growth and has recently added yet another route, to Leeds-Bradford, which will commence in March. Imagine how well they could do if the Government would give them a fair crack of the whip:

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=169

Lets not forget that NO western backbone system can be up and running until Claregalway is bypassed. With the bottleneck that that town is, there is too much unpredictablility in journey times.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Lets not forget that NO western backbone system can be up and running until Claregalway is bypassed. With the bottleneck that that town is, there is too much unpredictablility in journey times.

That is a very valid point Chris but if the M17 is to go ahead as schedule then the planning needs to start well in advance to ensure that these services can be up and running from day one.

In the meantime I think that a lobby group should be formed by Western Residents to campaign for these better services. A start would be to get the regular bus services to stop at Knock though that is far from the long-term solution.

Edit: I dont know the rules and regulations and dont want to overstep the mark here but could I suggest that a link to this thread be placed on the forums for the Western Counties as it will affect all of them.

The thing is though that bus services HAVE to serve towns of some sort, simply because the west doesnt produce a critical mass of people going north of Galway to use a motorway the whole way.

That means that buses will likely go through Claregalway. Now the M17 wont solve the Claregalway problem, but the relief road will. So that needs to be done too.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The thing is though that bus services HAVE to serve towns of some sort, simply because the west doesnt produce a critical mass of people going north of Galway to use a motorway the whole way.

That means that buses will likely go through Claregalway. Now the M17 wont solve the Claregalway problem, but the relief road will. So that needs to be done too.

I am sure you are right about the need for a Claregalway relief road but a backbone service is not intended to serve every town. It is intended to serve key towns and connections. The backbone service we were dicussing is intended to serve the key towns along the West. If you were serving Galway, Tuam, Claremorris, Knock Airport, Sligo, Donegal Town, maybe Letterkenny, Derry and Derry Airport, with a fast and reliable bus service which was supported by good connections to smaller towns and large towns off the route, then you would have plenty potential for customers. As an example, when the M17 is built you should be able to get from Galway to Knock Airport with only 2 stops in little more than 1:15. If that is a reliable service then there is lots of potential for customers doing that route alone before counting in all the other permutations.

And as far as populations go, a good reliable bus service can only add to the potential for growth.

A small article in todays Mayo Advertiser about Bus Eireann applying to change routing of Westport/Castlebar services to connect to Ireland West airport. Given tha the Irish Rail early-bird train was cancelled just a month after it was announced I won't hold my breath.

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/17045

Suspiciously there's no mention of the 64 Galway - Sligo route originally planned. There has been a lobbying by local politicians and the airport in the last 5 yeas, Bus Eireann seem to put the blame on the DOT, why would there be such resistance to adding a single bus stop that would integrate services at no extra cost! It will be interesting to see if the new National Transport Authority brings more transparency to the process.

Serfboard - not sure if you have given up on the idea but I think there is a need for the public to press our representatives and point out the practical transport solutions and cheaper alternatives to the WRC.