Why did Jesus have to die to save mankind?

Charco wrote: »

What is opinion about St Perpetua that I mentioned earlier, she is hailed as one of the great early Christian martyr even though it was her who cut her own throat. Do you similarly look down on her actions or do you make an exception because she is a well known Christian martyr who the Church got good PR out of?

Such dishonesty. I lament such self deception. Would you like to give the account of Perpetua's death to the other posters? So that they can see how dishonest you are in referring to her in the context you do? You keep referring to her 'cutting he own throat', dishonestly leaving out the context. Now you bring it up in the context of it being a suicidal act, that she 'desired to die'. However, the reality, is that she was imprisoned for her faith, and would not deny her faith. Then, along with other Christians was brought out to be killed for entertainment.

On the day of the games, the five were led into the amphitheatre. At the demand of the crowd they were first scourged; then a boar, a bear, and a leopard, were set on the men, and a wild cow on the women. Wounded by the wild animals, they gave each other the kiss of peace and were then put to the sword. "But Perpetua, that she might have some taste of pain, was pierced between the bones and shrieked out; and when the swordsman's hand wandered still (for he was a novice), herself set it upon her own neck

Why do you bother convincing yourself of your intellectual merit, when you must know deep down that you are wholly dishonest in your reasonings?

axer wrote: »

So now you know how atheists feel...

Do I?

So you are now agreeing with my other alternative in that jesus did not want to die but god forced him to be sacrificed anyway.

Well it was either god/jesus committed suicide if they are the one being or else if they are separate then god forced jesus to be sacrificed which is the act of killing jesus. Either way god committed a mortal sin which I believe is punishable by an eternity in hell or whatever it is that christians believe.

No bother.

prinz wrote: »

Likewise God didn't force Jesus to be sacrificed, i.e. manslaughter/murder. It's hard to kill someone who can't actually die. Check out the resurrection.

This makes no sense. Christians believe everyone will be resurrected, not just Jesus. Does that mean we should release murders from prison because their victims aren't going to be dead forever?

JimiTime wrote: »

Suicide is about a desire to die. Its a selfish act.

What is opinion about St Perpetua that I mentioned earlier, she is hailed as one of the great early Christian martyr even though it was her who cut her own throat. Do you similarly look down on her actions or do you make an exception because she is a well known Christian martyr who the Church got good PR out of?

A father who throws himself in front of a bullet heading towards his child is not commiting suicide, but saving his child from death. He has no desire to die, but the choice is he dies, or his child dies.

This just brought a thought to my mind. How come in the case of Jesus it was him that had to die? Why did the loving father not throw himself in front of the bullet to save his son in this case? Why did God the Father not come down to earth to be sacrificed instead of sending his son to do the job for him and then ignoring his sons cries for help?

prinz

axer wrote: »

Well it was either god/jesus committed suicide if they are the one being or else if they are separate then god forced jesus to be sacrificed which is the act of killing jesus. Either way god committed a mortal sin which I believe is punishable by an eternity in hell or whatever it is that christians believe.

Or neither is true. If I'm walking down the street tomorrow and I see someone walking in front of a bus and I push them out of the way to save them but end up getting run over myself is that suicide? No. Same as if I'm walking on a beach and I see someone in difficulty, go in to help them, but get caught in a riptide or something and end up being drowned myself (something that seems to occur often in this country) is that suicide? I didn't intentionally end my own life. No mens rea.

Likewise God didn't force Jesus to be sacrificed, i.e. manslaughter/murder. It's hard to kill someone who can't actually die. Check out the resurrection.

JimiTime wrote: »

I wouldn't argue with someone who insists that the moon is made of cheese neither.

So now you know how atheists feel...

JimiTime wrote: »

Not by any reasonable person. A man who sacrifices himself to save someone else is not commiting suicide. He is giving up his life to save another. Suicide is about a desire to die. Its a selfish act. A father who throws himself in front of a bullet heading towards his child is not commiting suicide, but saving his child from death. He has no desire to die, but the choice is he dies, or his child dies. Jesus had no desire to die, as his last night in the garden showed. He did however, accept that he would endure unto death. His integrity would not be breached. He didn't do things so that he would provoke people to kill him. He came as an authority to reveal the truth to people. Of course, he knew what the folk would eventually do, but it didn't stop him from completing his mission and telling it like it was. He was not motivated by a desire to die though, and that is what makes any such garbled together accusation of suicide even more nonsensical.

So you are now agreeing with my other alternative in that jesus did not want to die but god forced him to be sacrificed anyway.

JimiTime wrote: »

I think any honest person would not con themselves into believing this suicide garbage.

Well it was either god/jesus committed suicide if they are the one being or else if they are separate then god forced jesus to be sacrificed which is the act of killing jesus. Either way god committed a mortal sin which I believe is punishable by an eternity in hell or whatever it is that christians believe.

Fitz1

Can He still do what he wants on earth?

bmtannam wrote: »

I'm not sure whether there's any point in replying to this one where someone refers to a "living god" where no such thing exists in any form of reality...now that's strange to people who avoid "self enchantment".

See the sign on the door?

bmtannam

JimiTime wrote: »

So you LOL when a Christian uses the term 'He' for the living God? How strange.

I'm not sure whether there's any point in replying to this one where someone refers to a "living god" where no such thing exists in any form of reality...now that's strange to people who avoid "self enchantment".

bmtannam wrote: »

I really laugh out loud when someone says "he" when referring to their god.It's really comical.:)

So you LOL when a Christian uses the term 'He' for the living God? How strange.

bmtannam

pts wrote: »

God could change the "rule" if he wanted to right? He is omnipotent after all.
Also remember that in this forum its is generally agreed that God doesn't have to explain himself to us, and that he works in mysterious ways, so I can't help wondering why he wouldn't just wave his hand and forgive our sins. Why the whole crucify himself bit?

I really laugh out loud when someone says "he" when referring to their god.It's really comical.:)

Wicknight wrote: »

Seriously though, comments such as "ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide" are as unhelpful and silly as Axers.

There are some things that aren't worth arguing. Its is quite clear that Jesus' death was far removed from suicide. If someone knows the account, yet insists that it is suicide, then I don't feel it wise to start tooing and frowing about it. I wouldn't argue with someone who insists that the moon is made of cheese neither.

Under certain usages of the term it could easily be considered suicide

Not by any reasonable person. A man who sacrifices himself to save someone else is not commiting suicide. He is giving up his life to save another. Suicide is about a desire to die. Its a selfish act. A father who throws himself in front of a bullet heading towards his child is not commiting suicide, but saving his child from death. He has no desire to die, but the choice is he dies, or his child dies. Jesus had no desire to die, as his last night in the garden showed. He did however, accept that he would endure unto death. His integrity would not be breached. He didn't do things so that he would provoke people to kill him. He came as an authority to reveal the truth to people. Of course, he knew what the folk would eventually do, but it didn't stop him from completing his mission and telling it like it was. He was not motivated by a desire to die though, and that is what makes any such garbled together accusation of suicide even more nonsensical.

I think any honest person would not con themselves into believing this suicide garbage.

bmtannam

PDN wrote: »

It wasn't a 'rule' as such.

God had declared that the wages of sin would be death. All men have chosen to sin, therefore we all deserve death.

It seems reasonable to many of us that God, who is a God of love and mercy as well as of truth and justice, would not just simply wink at our sin and pretend it never happened. Therefore, in order to save us, God Himself came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ. He was uniquely able to obtain our salvation for two main reasons.

1. As the only man to live a perfectly sinless life, He was the only one qualified to die on anyone else's behalf.

2. Being divine as well as human, He was the only man who had the capacity to experience infinite pain, and so could endure the suffering of hell, multiplied billions of times over, within a finite period of time. The theologicial term for this is 'penal substitution' - ie taking our place and bearing our punishment.

It is quite impossible to be both divine and human unless you use the argument that your god can do anything and if that's the case it also proves my point that anyone who can do anything is not human and so on and on and on ad infinauseum.

Charco wrote: »

Here is where I think the difference lies: The earlier comparisons for Jesus were with the fire fighters on 9-11 or a heroic soldier who dies for his comrades in a fire fight. Now if the soldier in question fully intends to die a hero's death whilst saving his friends then he is acting suicidally. If he intends to ideally escape with his life whilst saving his friends, although realizing he is at serious risk of being killed, then he is not acting suicidally. Do you agree?

Nope. I simply don't agree with you.

I do wonder what would happen if you had the same discussion with the parents of an Iraq War vet who willingly died for his comrades? Do you think they would accept your insistence that their son or daughter's death would be better defined as a suicide?

If I actually believed that you thought something good came of Jesus' death (or some hypothetical war hero brother of yours), I'm not so sure that you would be so readily insisting on it being a suicide. But maybe you would!

How on eath can you argue that his actions were NOT suicidal?

I've already explained what I see as the different subject focus between a suicide and a self-sacrificial death. If you read the Wiki article on suicide you will notice that the act of suicide is overwhelmingly associated with negatives - mental health issues, physical ailments, "escape" from "justice" etc, etc.

Given the negative connotations that go hand in hand with suicide, I think that even "dutiful suicide" - a classification one might place Christ under if one was of the opinion that any good came from his death - seems to me to be an oxymoron of sorts. I believe that the word "suicide" simply means too many things to too many people.

So, while I freely admit that Jesus knowingly sacrificed himself, and thus shares a rather large commonality with a person who commits suicide, I believe that the motives between the two acts offer sufficient grounds to distinguish one from the other. Therefore I believe that they warrant a different way to describe each. Still, as long as it's done in a tasteful manner, I'm not going to get overly worried about the classification people choose to use.

Wicknight wrote: »

Anywhoo, Fanny is getting concerned so again I'm happy to continue this in this thread or in other thread. Just don't blame me for dragging this thread off topic.

I'm not sure where you found that idea in my post. I'm usually happy to allow some amount of leeway.

Anyway, 3 weeks ban for your off-topic posting!

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think that Charco's logic is way off. There are many possible scenarios where one could imagine a person willingly laying down their life to save others that wasn't a spur of the moment decision. I just don't see how the time taken to arrive at the decision to die is a factor in deciding if it's a suicide or an act of unbridled heroism or whatever. I mean, what time limit is one to use before one death is self-sacrifice and the other is suicide?

Here is where I think the difference lies: The earlier comparisons for Jesus were with the fire fighters on 9-11 or a heroic soldier who dies for his comrades in a fire fight. Now if the soldier in question fully intends to die a hero's death whilst saving his friends then he is acting suicidally. If he intends to ideally escape with his life whilst saving his friends, although realizing he is at serious risk of being killed, then he is not acting suicidally. Do you agree?

So let us now move to Jesus. Christians believe it was his death that brought salvation. Therefore Jesus, by your own Christian understanding, could not have been classed as coming under the latter example of the soldier. He could not have hoped to save the people and also come out of it avoiding death. He therefore acted suicidally, he provoked the authorities at the exact time when a lethal response was most likely. How on eath can you argue that his actions were NOT suicidal?

I believe jesus once said (according to the bible if it is to be believed.):

Jesus (Matthew 9:9-13) wrote:

'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'

So there you have it from the horses mouth. jesus didnt believe in sacrifice anyway so i doubt he thought sacrifice by suicide is right. God didnt show him much mercy even though he asked him for it. He must have been pretty pissed off with either his father or himself (depending on whether he was actually god or not).

I've been struggling to find a good analogy with what Jesus did, but one that just sprung to mind was the priest in the WW2 concentration camp who took the place of another person on the march to the gas chamber. That was an act of suicide. It was an act that through his own actions resulted knowingly in his death.

He did not have to kill himself (the Nazi's did that form him), he simply positioned himself on purpose so that his life would end, in order to save the life of the other man.

I have no issue calling this act suicide, perhaps because I do not automatically associated the negative connotations Fanny mentions with the word in of itself.

I think the negative connotations come from the difficulty people have understanding why someone would willingly die. But in the case of sacrificial suicide that should be obvious, they do it so others can live, and it is something that we should commend as heroic :pac:

blinding wrote: »

When some other fella is getting it in the neck or wherever then the rest of us have an out pouring of relief at least until the next fella is due to get it.

Jesus was probbaly in the wrong place at the wrong time but had a very good PR person. That PR person has a lot to answer for because we have never heard the end of his clients demise.

Why was Jesus more important than the next fella that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Okay the guy was hard done by can his people let it rest now.

I'm not exactly sure what your overall point is. Christians most certainly believe that Jesus was in the right place at the right time. I suggest you read the New Testament for more on this.

Wicknight wrote: »

Because it doesn't matter. Suicide is not considered a sinful at except by certain Catholics and then it is debatable if sacraficial suicide is considered the same thing.

I thought all christians believe suicide is a sin since it is a killing (even though a killing of one's self). Can anyone tell me which christian organisations don't believe that.

axer wrote: »

Then how is my overall point silly since I am just highlighting that either it was a suicide or a killing by god. That is my underlying point.

Because it doesn't matter. Suicide (the loss of one's own life through their own actions) is not considered a sinful except by certain Catholics and then it is debatable if sacrificial suicide is considered the same.

blinding

When some other fella is getting it in the neck or wherever then the rest of us have an out pouring of relief at least until the next fella is due to get it.

Jesus was probbaly in the wrong place at the wrong time but had a very good PR person. That PR person has a lot to answer for because we have never heard the end of his clients demise.

Why was Jesus more important than the next fella that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Okay the guy was hard done by can his people let it rest now.

Wicknight wrote: »

Out of curiosity do many Christians actually have an issue with that idea?

Personally I don't see what the big deal would be over the idea that he committed suicide (in the form of death by cop), plenty of people have done so heroically and sacrificially, particularly if the person doesn't believe suicide is actually a sin.

Yes.

I think that Charco's logic is way off. There are many possible scenarios where one could imagine a person willingly laying down their life to save others that wasn't a spur of the moment decision. I just don't see how the time taken to arrive at the decision to die is a factor in deciding if it's a suicide or an act of unbridled heroism or whatever. I mean, what time limit is one to use before one death is self-sacrifice and the other is suicide?

Quite apart from this, I imagine that that the subject of suicide and the subject of self-sacrifice leading to death are different. I mean this in a non-judgemental way, but it seems to me that suicide focuses on the individual and their pain, whereas the focus of a self-sacrificial death is on others.

One only has to imagine the different reactions to a suicide and compare them to somebody who died a "hero's"death to see the difference.

Quite aside from the fact that I think the suggestion is utter tosh for reasons of bad logic, I will admit that there is part of me that struggles to shed the shameful and dishonourable connotations our society generally associates with suicide. Though I will qualify this by saying that I find such connotations quite unwelcome and unhelpful if we are to address the problem of suicide.

kelly1 wrote: »

God didn't kill Jesus. We humans did! The sinful men whom Jesus came to save and give eternal life, killed him because they felt threatened by the Truth!

I was the Father's will that Jesus should die to save us but Jesus didn't commit suicide. He willingly did His Father's will and knew He would have to die in doing so.

But looks what was achieved by Jesus' death! He saved billions of souls from Hell and what's more these souls now have or will have a share in God's very inner life and a share in Jesus' glory.

That is irrelevant to the issue of whether he committed suicide though.

This is what I don't get, what do you think it means to say that Jesus' death was suicide.

At the end of the great 2 part Borg episode in Star Trek NG, as the Borg ship is entering Earth orbit, Riker orders that the Enterprise prepare to ram the Borg ship at full warp. That would hopefully destroy the ship, but also destroy the Enterprise. That would be suicide. But no one thinks it would be a bad thing, in fact it would be considered highly heroic and sacrificial

I hate this dogmatic distortion of words you guys go through every time you find something that you think is insulting or displeasing.

Wicknight wrote: »

I can certainly see how people would call that suicide.

Then how is my overall point silly since I am just highlighting that either it was a suicide or a killing by god. That is my underlying point. Both result in a mortal sin since someone was killed by god either way.

JimiTime wrote: »

It was ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide. Having an issue with suicide is nothing to do with it.

Ok, take that as a yes :P

Seriously though, comments such as "ABSOLUTELY NOT suicide" are as unhelpful and silly as Axers. Under certain usages of the term it could easily be considered suicide, Jesus went to Earth to die, position himself in such a way that he would be killed, offered no resistance to this nor attempted to stop or avoid it.

It was a sacrificial act, resulting in his death, orchestrated and willingly entered into by himself that required his death. I can certainly see how people would call that suicide.

Really not following what the big deal is.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Mark Hamill

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not really. I just get pi**ed off/emotional when people try to make God out to be the bad buy when we're the ones who have done the wrong.

We did exactly what god knew we would. He could have changed his actions at any time, yet he chose not to because he wanted Jesus to die.

kelly1 wrote: »

Strictly speaking God didn't kill Jesus. The Romans did following the demands of the Pharisees. What God did was an act of mercy, not a mortal sin as you put it. You're accusing God of sinning when you should be searching your own heart. God's justice must be satisfied and there was no other way to achieve this. Huge crimes demand huge atonement. This talk of suicide is bull.

God would have known that Jesus was destined to die at the hands of the Romans before he even sent the angel to tell Mary she was going to get pregnant. God sent Jesus, a part of himself to earth knowning he would die, wanting him to die, to sate a mad justice god needs to just out because mankind failed a test set up by god who knew we would fail it before it even begun.

kelly1 wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. Jesus willingly went to the cross out of love for us. He complained only one and then quickly agreed to do His Father's will anyway.

If Jesus and God are the same entity, why would Jesus have complained to himself?

kelly1 wrote: »

The mortal sins were those committed by His executioners and those who wanted Him killed.

God knowingly sent himself to his own death to atone for a "crime" for which he wanted justice for.

axer wrote: »

god wanted jesus killed so again by your definition god committed a mortal sin. if god didn't want him killed then jesus would not have died.

Good point. And an add on to that, surely Christians would have wanted him killed too? I mean if his short death saved as many souls as they claim then its a small sacrifice to pay. Are they committing mortal sins too?

If I knew for a fact that my death would save countless souls in an afterlife that I knew existed, and I also knew that I would be brought back to life less than 48 hours later then I would be happy enough to sign up to that deal. It always made me a bit confused when Jesus asked God to give him a way out of doing it and only went through with it because he didn't get his way, it seemed incredibly selfishness to me.