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If Lynch had invaded

munsterdevil

Did anyone see the documentary that was on tonight (1 September 2009). Wasn't it just the most ridiculous pile of rubbish that was ever made. It was like asking "If Ireland had invaded Poland in 1939, would they have won WWII?"

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captainblack

MrMicra wrote: »

The RUC were the dregs of society. They were cowards. They would have ran.

Yes I can see that. Three hundred died defending Ulster's innocents and many more were injured both physically and mentally. Cowards to a man. :rolleyes:

captainblack

McArmalite wrote: »

The unionists, their the greastest mouthpieces and windbags in history. As is said,these are the very people who could abondoned without a whimper the brethern in Donegal, Cavan, Dublin etc

Like the wind bags in Ireland abandoned the Nationalists in the 6 counties you mean.

No wind bag like a Dublin wind bag.

The Irish are the biggest wind bags the world has ever seen. As soon as they got their 'freedom' from The English half of them moved there and brought their kids up as little Englishmen.

You really couldn't make it up.

McArmalite

captainblack wrote: »

Yes I can see that. Three hundred died defending Ulster's innocents and many more were injured both physically and mentally. Cowards to a man. :rolleyes:

" Defending Ulster's innocents " The first deaths of the troubles in August 1969 including a nine year old boy Patrick Rooney.

14 July 1969 Francis McCloskey (67) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died one day after being hit on head with batons during street disturbances, Dungiven, County Derry.

17 July 1969 Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry.

14 August 1969 John Gallagher (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)
Shot during street disturbances, Cathedral Road, Armagh.

14 August 1969 Patrick Rooney (9) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home, during nearby street disturbances, St Brendan's Path, Divis Flats, Belfast.

captainblack

McArmalite wrote: »

Like I said previously, 20 or so IRA men armed with handguns and bolt action rifles kept they at bay down on the Lower Falls etc

Have they written a song about it yet?

Where are The IRA now?

What flag flys over Ulster?

What state rules over Northern Ireland?

Keep talking McArmalite, it's all The Irish can do. It's great entertainment though.

McArmalite

captainblack wrote: »

This is pure fantasy. The UK had a UN veto and wouldn't have brought in The UN under any circumstances. They'd just have killed The Irish soldiers then got on with the next job.

" got on with the next job " Bombing Libya for Lockerbie ?

Good old Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, a hero true and true. Nice ot see the brits getting their noses rubbed in it once again.

who the fug

captainblack wrote: »

The Irish are the biggest wind bags the world has ever seen. As soon as they got their 'freedom' from The English half of them moved there and brought their kids up as little Englishmen.

What would have them do, stay and starve

captainblack

McArmalite wrote: »

" Defending Ulster's innocents " The first deaths of the troubles in August 1969 including a nine year old boy Patrick Rooney.

14 July 1969 Francis McCloskey (67) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died one day after being hit on head with batons during street disturbances, Dungiven, County Derry.

17 July 1969 Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry.

14 August 1969 John Gallagher (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)
Shot during street disturbances, Cathedral Road, Armagh.

14 August 1969 Patrick Rooney (9) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home, during nearby street disturbances, St Brendan's Path, Divis Flats, Belfast.

Ye, we can all use the internet mate. I could post up a list of all the children butchered by Republican animals during the troubles. You know the type - specialised in blowing the limbs of women and children and when confronted burst into tears screaming about their civil rights. The Irish eh?

"Mammy mammy, The English are persecuting me..."

Hilarious.

pat78monday6

first a question to anyone, since when do irishmen invade any part of ireland? two : the brits did not know what was going on in ireland in 1969, evidence of this was when the brit army marched up divis st to durham stwhere the locals directed them to where the orange mobs were attacking the irish.,also lets have a truth forum before what is being presented on this forum is accepted as truth and young irish are educated on a revised stoy of what happened.

ejmaztec

McArmalite wrote: »

" got on with the next job " Bombing Libya for Lockerbie ? Good old Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, a hero true through and truethrough. Nice ot see the brits getting their noses rubbed in it once again.

Why do you regard him as a hero?

walrusgumble

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was refering to what you mention here.....

it was a war between the Irish and the Black and Tans, the Irish never felt the full strength of the British Military.

thanks for the clarification

whether the irish never ever felt the full strength of the military, well there is the jacobite wars and 1798 (of course this may not be irish v english per se, so moot)

It is extremely disengenious to say though that Ireland never felt the full strength of the British Military. Our ancestors many how whom felt it alright when the peelers were ejecting them from their homes. When land marches and protests were being banned, irish people deported from their own country ---- again, you know where this is going. maybe not recieved the full force in the conventional sense, but its presence was felt and resented. Ironically of course, at one point, thousands of irish born men were members of the british army and fought in many wars

____________________________________________________

The full force of the army , That was one influencing factor for not contining the tan war. by 1922 england had its planes and bombers back etc would would be raring to get its mojo back and unleash flames of furry against ireland. (as we know, ww1 knocked whatever complancey britian may have had about its prowess out of the water) i think Churchill had an observation aeroplane buzzing around the four courts during the stand off prior to civil war

However, whats makes every one think britain would release the full strength of its navy, air force etc. there reactions in 1916 was akin to taking a canon to kill a fly. There was huge public uproar around the world (well, in irish america, specs of moscow, germany) it would not look too good for public relations that england would continue war with a small country whilst it just after concluded the Versaille peace treaty, and considering how it stood in teh war to defend small countries.

you get the idea i am referring to here. would britain really have unleased the full power of the army

I am wondering though, if Lynch was careless in 69, would britain actually go gun ho and unleash its fury against this state, in light of potential international headaches???????? - considering it was in its own door step, and anyone would a brain would have noted from their tv sets that catholics (most, but not all supported the south) were getting a raw deal

Fratton Fred

walrusgumble wrote: »

However, whats makes every one think britain would release the full strength of its navy, air force etc. there reactions in 1916 was akin to taking a canon to kill a fly. There was huge public uproar around the world (well, in irish america, specs of moscow, germany) it would not look too good for public relations that england would continue war with a small country whilst it just after concluded the Versaille peace treaty, and considering how it stood in teh war to defend small countries.
you get the idea i am referring to here. would britain really have unleased the full power of the army

I don't think for one minute they would have and i don't think for one minute Lynch ever considered an actual invasion. To me this sounds more like "Get someone up there to protect the catholics, or we will" type of statement.

I doubt very much the Irish army going in guns blazing was ever considered, more a case of trucks driving to the nationalist areas and standing between the mob and the innocents. kind of like a UN peace keeping force, but without the UN sanction.

I expect this would have been followed up by a "Get the **** out of our country" from the UK followed by "OK, but we aint going til you ensure the safety of the nationalists".

MrMicra

McArmalite wrote: »

BTW, should that not be Captain Orange

Have you never heard of
"Captain Black [who] like a true orange hero,
come ridin' upon his white steed."

This whole thread is absurd. The documentary was a party political designed to bolster the myth that there has ever been an attractive non corrupt leader of Fianna Fail. It is political propaganda.

The British should have been informed of the movement of troops into Northern Ireland and withdrawal procedures should have been agreed even if this demanded a surrender by the officers involved.

This would have prevented the growth of the IRA.
It would have greatly improved the moral authority of the southern government with northern catholics.
It would have internationalised the conflict immediately.
It would have drawn attention to the problematic nature of the Stormont regime immediately.

There would have been no risk whatever from the RUC who would not have engaged the Irish army and if they had would have been killed. An indication of their military prowess can be derived from their inability to confront an entirely untrained and almost weaponless IRA.

The threat from the English Army has been dealt with above.

The documentary was a piece of political propaganda, Lynch may not have been personally corrupt (may not have been though he was a Fianna Failer) but his stupidity and vacillation led directly to 3000 deaths.

sliabh

MrMicra wrote: »

The British should have been informed of the movement of troops into Northern Ireland and withdrawal procedures should have been agreed even if this demanded a surrender by the officers involved.

My mind boggles at how you think a country with a pip-squeak army could tell a global power that it is about to invade their territory and would expect them to accept that?

The documentary was a whimsical "what if" to mark 30 years since Lynch's speech. Nothing more.

Lynch had enough sense (and a lot more than many people posting here) to know that politically, diplomatically, and militarily any organised attempt by the Irish government to enter the north would have ended in disaster for the Republic.

He did all he could, which was to make diplomatic noises that made it clear to the British how serious the Irish government took the situation.

captainblack

MrMicra said:

Have you never heard of
"Captain Black [who] like a true orange hero,
come ridin' upon his white steed."

I'm referring to a different 'Captain Black'...

There would have been no risk whatever from the RUC who would not have engaged the Irish army and if they had would have been killed. An indication of their military prowess can be derived from their inability to confront an entirely untrained and almost weaponless IRA.

This is a little bit naive my friend. The RUC had sten guns and carbines and quite a few were ex-UK Forces. If, as you suggest, The Irish army was foolish enough to place itself between Nationalist civilians and The RUC, then The RUC could easily have withdrawn and set up sniper positions. You see that's the problem with trying to protect non-combatants - it's very difficult to do without taking casualties yourselves.

As regards your comment about the inability of The RUC to confront an " entirely untrained and almost weaponless IRA", this is much more telling than you might realise. You see my friend, it would indeed have been easy for The RUC/B Specials to slaughter large numbers of unarmed Nationalists. It is you (and those like you) who need to consider why this did not happen...

Hint, it had nothing to do with RUC/B-Special cowardice or incompetence. Nor did it have anything to do with the heroism or prowess of The IRA.

MrMicra

captainblack wrote: »

MrMicra said:

As regards your comment about the inability of The RUC to confront an " entirely untrained and almost weaponless IRA", this is much more telling than you might realise. You see my friend, it would indeed have been easy for The RUC/B Specials to slaughter large numbers of unarmed Nationalists. It is you (and those like you) who need to consider why this did not happen...

Hint, it had nothing to do with RUC/B-Special cowardice or incompetence. Nor did it have anything to do with the heroism or prowess of The IRA.

A very interesting point and perhaps one that deserve its own thread (by you). How about it?

Erin Go Brath

An interesting idea but predictably rte make a haimes of it. If the Irish army crossed into the occupied territory they would have entered the Derry Bogside where they would have lots of support and cover and which was the centre of the conflict. They would certainly not have gotten exposed in a field somewhere south of newry with RAF fighters easily able to pick them off. That would be utter insanity ffs.

Then to further the agenda of making the Irish army look like a bunch of thicks they discuss this hypothetical inane agenda with some former British Army leader. He of course glefully explained how the Irish troops would to a man be slaughtered, which most likely they would have. I felt like throwing something at the tv.

Judgement Day

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

An interesting idea but predictably rte make a haimes of it. If the Irish army crossed into the occupied territory they would have entered the Derry Bogside where they would have lots of support and cover and which was the centre of the conflict. They would certainly not have gotten exposed in a field somewhere south of newry with RAF fighters easily able to pick them off. That would be utter insanity ffs.

Then to further the agenda of making the Irish army look like a bunch of thicks they discuss this hypothetical inane agenda with some former British Army leader. He of course glefully explained how the Irish troops would to a man be slaughtered, which most likely they would have. I felt like throwing something at the tv.

I suspect that we are coming from very different sides of the spectrum on this one but I have to agree with you - the Newry scenario was a daft one. Derry would have been far more logical and Finner camp (near Donegal) could have been used as a staging post. The result of any such an incursion would have been a loyalist backlash on a massive scale against the nationalist population; and while the ensuing conflict might not have lasted the thirty years of the recent 'troubles' I think that the casualties would have been far worse than the 3,000+ that occurred. Also I have to agree with you about the former British army officer - he was almost gloating - and it was a pointless contribution as the former Irish army officers had already admitted what would have happened to the invading detachment. All in all a pretty shoddy production.

diverdriver

I looked forward to the documentary but I have to say I was sorely disappointed. Everyone involved should be suitably embarrassed except the ex members of the defence forces interviewed who could hardly expect it to be so bad. I also don't understand why so many ex FCA officers were interviewed particularly from that period when they were most likely privates or Corporals.

The dramatised scenes were farcsical, Irish soldiers with modern Israeli helmets and carrying British army SLR's. Probably rubber ones as used in the movie 'Bloody Sunday'. But that's all window dressing.

The supposed scenario of the attack in Newry was ridiculous. Apparently we are supposed to believe that only a company could be used, with no support of any kind. They would storm into Newry, take the town and then apparently withdraw to field south of the city and wait to be massacred by the inevitable counterattack. A military absurdity.

The reality is that more men would be used, Newry would be taken easily and the locals would greet them as liberators. The RUC would lock themselves in their barracks and the town would be taken over by the populace. They're might be ugly scenes as revenge was taken on Loyalists in the town and a bit of burning and looting. All roads in and out of the town would be blocked by the populace, the IRA would drag out their rusty old Tommy guns and .303s and join the army in the defence of Newry.

The British would not storm in all guns blazing, after all this is supposed to be a 'British' town. They couldn't just launch airstrikes and artillery fire. No smart weapons back then. They would protest, demand withdrawal, meanwhile the world's press would arrive in Newry and wait. The Brits would be faced with having to storm the town in full view of the media, in street fighting against a hostile population stiffened by now fully motivated Irish soldiers.

They would have to negotiate, the most likely scenario would be a US intervention and for the Irish to eventually march back to the border flags flying as it were.

Similarly if they army went into Derry. They would be difficult to dislodge from amongst a sympathetic population. Indeed it's entirely possible that they could remain there for some time. The British government would have difficulty in justifying an all out attack and it's likely that there would be considerable support even in Britain for the Irish actions.

There are of course any number of other possible scenarios. But the basic premise of the programme that the Irish army would be massacred and Anglo-Irish relations set back hundreds of years is stupid. Sure in an open fight even to this day, the Irish defence forces would be overwhelmed by the British, in fact in Europe probably only Cyprus and Malta would be worried by our 'power'. But that's beside the point, in the real world actual fighting is the last resort. Any invasion of the North would have resulted in political implications and negotiations. The Irish army would withdraw after the point was well and truly made. Maybe fewer people would have died in the end had they gone in. Who knows.

What I do agree with is that the programme was essentially a whitewash of Jack Lynch, the last honest FF leader. Even if he was essentially timid and ineffective as a Taoiseach.

captainblack

Interesting analysis diverdriver. I haven't stopped laughing since I read it.

Hookey

diverdriver wrote: »

Similarly if they army went into Derry. They would be difficult to dislodge from amongst a sympathetic population. Indeed it's entirely possible that they could remain there for some time. The British government would have difficulty in justifying an all out attack and it's likely that there would be considerable support even in Britain for the Irish actions.

Nah, sorry, don't buy that for a second, not in 1969. There's a big difference between sympathy for oppressed catholics and invasion of "British" territory by a foreign power. This is a country with a whole mythology about holding off every invader since 1066 (not remotely true btw, but I digress); UK public opinion would have been a HUGE factor in any response and Wilson's government was already down in the polls and would lose the election a year later. The Tories would have had a field day and Wilson would have been forced to act. Airstrikes against Derry might not have been on the cards, but they'd have had fewer qualms about strikes against the Republic, particularly "military" targets.

sliabh

Hookey wrote: »

Nah, sorry, don't buy that for a second, not in 1969. There's a big difference between sympathy for oppressed catholics and invasion of "British" territory by a foreign power. This is a country with a whole mythology about holding off every invader since 1066 (not remotely true btw, but I digress); UK public opinion would have been a HUGE factor in any response and Wilson's government was already down in the polls and would lose the election a year later. The Tories would have had a field day and Wilson would have been forced to act. Airstrikes against Derry might not have been on the cards, but they'd have had fewer qualms about strikes against the Republic, particularly "military" targets.

Spot on. The British public weren't exactly willing to sit back and accept the new status quo when the Argentinians invaded a miserable, wind blown, sheep colony thousands of miles away in 1982, were they?

getz

the invasion would have given the brits the excuse to also go in and eliminate all the IRA cells ,and it would have been seen as internationally legal.

MarchDub

getz wrote: »

the invasion would have given the brits the excuse to also go in and eliminate all the IRA cells ,and it would have been seen as internationally legal.

I didn't see the programme so can't speak directly to content but some of the discussion here makes no sense and I think there is an important point being missed by many posters - there were no IRA cells to speak of in 1969. In fact, at this time the IRA in Belfast had no arms and no money and appealed to headquarters for help in Aug 1969 - and initially little was forthcoming. Organization was very weak at the time and philosophically at odds about direction. At the Ard Fheis in December 1969 the movement split and the PIRA split off.

By documents later released by Scotland Yard - who were still in charge of these operations then - the total count for the IRA membership in NI just prior to the British Army going in was around 65. This was one of the reasons why the British Army was sent in - it looked like a doddle.

Jo King

Judgement Day wrote: »

Derry would have been far more logical and Finner camp (near Donegal) could have been used as a staging post.

Finner camp is in Donegal. You should get a map and have a look at it. In 1969 there was no permanently occupied military installation north of Manorhamilton. Finner Camp in 1969 consisted of little more than a few wooden huts. It is at the opposite end of Donegal from Derry. In fact it is almost as far from Derry as Newry is from Dublin!
In addition Finner Camp is only a few miles from the border at Fermanagh. A line of supply coming from the South to Finner and then on to Derry would be extremely vulnerable to ground and air attack.
If Derry was to be invaded Enniskillen would also have to be taken, in order to prevent Donegal from being cut off.
The Irish army at that time consisted of about 6,000 men and out of that there was a battalion in Cyprus on UN duty.
If Newry was madness, Derry was out and out stupidity.

Judgement Day

Jo King wrote: »

Finner camp is in Donegal. You should get a map and have a look at it. In 1969 there was no permanently occupied military installation north of Manorhamilton. Finner Camp in 1969 consisted of little more than a few wooden huts. It is at the opposite end of Donegal from Derry. In fact it is almost as far from Derry as Newry is from Dublin!
In addition Finner Camp is only a few miles from the border at Fermanagh. A line of supply coming from the South to Finner and then on to Derry would be extremely vulnerable to ground and air attack.
If Derry was to be invaded Enniskillen would also have to be taken, in order to prevent Donegal from being cut off.
The Irish army at that time consisted of about 6,000 men and out of that there was a battalion in Cyprus on UN duty.
If Newry was madness, Derry was out and out stupidity.

I meant to say near Donegal town (well Ballyshannon not that far from) and it could have been used as a staging post - i.e. somewhere for the invasion to be launched from, as the question of having a supply line does not arise as without air cover no supply line could have been established there or anywhere else. Nationalist Derry, west of the Foyle could have been occupied quite easily and would have been quite hard to retake without major loss of life but that ignores the fact that a British ultimatium to withdraw or face unspecified retaliation would probably have occurred. This could have taken many different forms including air strikes against military targets, blockading of ports etc.etc. Anyway, I'm glad it didn't happen as no good would have come from it.

brianthebard

diverdriver wrote: »

The British would not storm in all guns blazing, after all this is supposed to be a 'British' town. They couldn't just launch airstrikes and artillery fire. No smart weapons back then. They would protest, demand withdrawal, meanwhile the world's press would arrive in Newry and wait. The Brits would be faced with having to storm the town in full view of the media, in street fighting against a hostile population stiffened by now fully motivated Irish soldiers.

You made some interesting points but I just had to draw you up on this one, the history of 1916 shows that the British Army would have no trouble using artillery on a 'british' town. Actually the plan you suggest seems to mirror 1916 in many ways, so it is not inconceivable that the British reaction would also be similar.

Jo King

Judgement Day wrote: »

I meant to say near Donegal town (well Ballyshannon not that far from) and it could have been used as a staging post - i.e. somewhere for the invasion to be launched from, as the question of having a supply line does not arise as without air cover no supply line could have been established there or anywhere else. Nationalist Derry, west of the Foyle could have been occupied quite easily and would have been quite hard to retake without major loss of life but that ignores the fact that a British ultimatium to withdraw or face unspecified retaliation would probably have occurred. This could have taken many different forms including air strikes against military targets, blockading of ports etc.etc. Anyway, I'm glad it didn't happen as no good would have come from it.

Finner camp is miles from Donegal Town. There is no point in any military force going anywhere unless additional supplies can be brought forward to replace those being consumed. Invading without a secure line of supply is lunatic.
The only line of supply into Donegal from the south is on the Sligo to Ballyshannon road. That road can easily be cut off. It is also a considerable distance from the major military installations in the region, which were in Athlone, Mullingar and Galway.

Troops might have moved into Derry, but what would they do for ammunition, medical supplies and petrol? Without supplies behind them, continually coming forward they would not have lasted a week. In fact they had three days supply of ammunition available.

captainblack

Judgement Day wrote: »

I meant to say near Donegal town (well Ballyshannon not that far from) and it could have been used as a staging post - i.e. somewhere for the invasion to be launched from, as the question of having a supply line does not arise as without air cover no supply line could have been established there or anywhere else. Nationalist Derry, west of the Foyle could have been occupied quite easily and would have been quite hard to retake without major loss of life but that ignores the fact that a British ultimatium to withdraw or face unspecified retaliation would probably have occurred. This could have taken many different forms including air strikes against military targets, blockading of ports etc.etc. Anyway, I'm glad it didn't happen as no good would have come from it.

"Nationalist Derry" was not quite as Nationalist in '69 as it is now. In fact at that time there were 20 000 Protestants living West of The Foyle. These have since been driven out by militant Republicans. Not sure how this would effect your analysis.

Judgement Day

Jo King - if you read my last posting I stated that without air cover supply lines could not be established anywhere. However, as a one-off PR stunt the seizing and holding of part of Derry for a week or so (without re-supply) would have been a possibility. Derry is 47 miles from Ballyshannon - 3 hours (?) or so by army lorry, under cover of darkness could have seen quite a sizeable invasion force in Derry possibly with little or no detection until the last moment.

Originally Posted by Judgement Day

ejmaztec

brianthebard wrote: »

You made some interesting points but I just had to draw you up on this one, the history of 1916 shows that the British Army would have no trouble using artillery on a 'british' town. Actually the plan you suggest seems to mirror 1916 in many ways, so it is not inconceivable that the British reaction would also be similar.

So, you're saying that Britain hadn't changed its methods after 50 years?