bayviewclose wrote: » Yes some very interesting points from that poll. And the 22 per cent is a very telling statistic. Clearly people are still unhappy how this treaty is being presented. And what can we expect from the Yes Vote. More posters with their faces on it. Think it was greeted with a fair degree of cynicism last time round. I would also hope that when debate hits the airwaves it will not be with like two weeks ago. All that happens there is politicians and lobbyists from the yes and no factions just continually shout over each other which achieves nothing. I would like to see maybe four or five debates (which are well publicised) where seperate issues are discussed in a Questions and Answers type forum.
RandomName2 wrote: » I'm just waiting to see the PDs' campaign for Lisbon get started.
darkman2 wrote: » Im staying with a "no" because im pissed off with all of them. The Government for fcuking us up and the EU for ignoring us.
Scofflaw wrote: » Presuming by the second that you're referring to holding a second referendum, you're actually talking about the government again. The EU cannot dictate how or whether Ireland ratifies Lisbon - that is entirely between us and our government. cordially, Scofflaw
FutureTaoiseach wrote: » Are we not being pressured by the EU though?
oscarBravo wrote: » There's a certain amount of pressure from the other member states, sure. Which is understandable: if you and 26 of your mates had spent ages making plans, and you suddenly changed your mind - wouldn't you expect them to try to persuade you?
ei.sdraob wrote: » working on the plans for the better part of a decade with you (ireland) taking a big part in the drafting in those plans ... a better example would be 27 students living in a big dorm, with one fat slob (previously slim and athletic) being slow in helping clean the place and implement the plans to paint the rooms
working on the plans for the better part of a decade with you (ireland) taking a big part in the drafting in those plans ... a better example would be 27 students living in a big dorm, with one fat slob (previously slim and athletic) being slow in helping clean the place and implement the plans to paint the rooms
PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: » Well played that man, 'some good things in Lisbon', but voting 'no' for 3 reasons that are nothing to do with it. One of which (#2) is factually incorrect. Another of which (#3) Lisbon would actually help by increasing democratic accountability in decision making.
Freeborn John wrote: » Lisbon is the direction that federalists wish to take the EU in. If you don't like that direction then it is logical to vote against Lisbon. Lisbon makes the EU less democratic by taking powers from democratic national institutions and giving them to undemocratic institutions in Brussels (including the EU Parliament) which represent no interest except their own in acquiring more power and will not accept NO for an answer.
worldrepublic wrote: » 27 white middle-class students want to 'paint house'... but some of the white middle-class students smell a rat. One little student starts thinking about the Arabian and Iraqi students in the flat down the hall (the one with all the oil underneath it). Hey! [says the little student] we need to stop pretending we are just planning to 'paint house', and own up to the fact that we need to keep raiding the other apartments for oil so we can all eat more, have nice cars, and central heating of course. [Bleep] this [bleep] about a little 'paint job'.
O'Morris wrote: » It's not that we're being slow in cleaning the place, it's that we refuse to clean the place.
And not all of the 27 students were asked if they wanted to clean the place. Of the students who were asked, three of them said no. There's reason to believe that many of the other students would have given the same answer if they too had been asked.
Freeborn John wrote: » Lisbon is the direction that federalists wish to take the EU in. If you don't like that direction then it is logical to vote against Lisbon.
Lisbon makes the EU less democratic by taking powers from democratic national institutions and giving them to undemocratic institutions in Brussels (including the EU Parliament) which represent no interest except their own in acquiring more power and will not accept NO for an answer.
the-island-man wrote: » Anybody that believes that this whole process is fair and democratic is kidding themselves in my opinion!
the-island-man wrote: » The true test of our democracy will be whether the goverment even bother doing a report after the second referendum if Ireland vote yes to see why we did so! A lot of talk i've heard recently suggests that people will vote yes because they believe our economy will improve if we do! Nobody can prove that this is correct and if it isn't does anybody believe that the goverment will run another referendum?! Not a chance!
PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: » The EP is undemocratic eh? Dictionary for Freeborn John please...
the-island-man wrote: » The true test of our democracy will be whether the goverment even bother doing a report after the second referendum if Ireland vote yes to see why we did so!
A lot of talk i've heard recently suggests that people will vote yes because they believe our economy will improve if we do!
Nobody can prove that this is correct and if it isn't does anybody believe that the goverment will run another referendum?! Not a chance!
Anybody that believes that this whole process is fair and democratic is kidding themselves in my opinion!
Freeborn John wrote: » International organisations cannot take serious political decisions binding on their membership by majority vote, because if they do they will be forcing the nations in the outvoted minority to do things that their national majority is opposed to. That is why international organisation (with the exception of the EU) always use unanimity and why none of them (except the EU) have run into the same crisis of democratic legitimacy that the EU is experiencing.
Freeborn John wrote: » Democracy requires a united people, who will agree to live under their majority...
Sam Vimes wrote: » Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs political college?
oscarBravo wrote: » So, which is it: are you arguing for a completely federal Europe, or for the abolition of the EU?
Freeborn John wrote: » A basic lesson in democracy for PopeBuckfastXVI seems in order. Democracy requires a united people, who will agree to live under their majority and this does not exist across Europe.
Freeborn John wrote: » If giving the EU Parliament more power would make the EU more democratic then the EU 'demoartic deficit' would have been solved by now, because the powers of the EU Parliament have been steadily increased since 1979. However the opposite has happened, with the EU haveing become widely viewed as increasingly undemoratic over this period.
Freeborn John wrote: » Lisbon perpetrtautes this failed policy in giving the EU Parliament even more power but a policy that has failed to make the EU democratic for 30 years will not work suddenly work now. The EU is becoming less democratic because powers given to Brussels can only come from national parliaments which are the only true democratic institutions in Europe or the world.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy wrote: de⋅moc⋅ra⋅cy /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ –noun, plural -cies. 1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. 2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies. 3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges. 4. political or social equality; democratic spirit. 5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.
Freeborn John wrote: » Can you give me one example (other than the EU) of an international organisation taking 'serious' political decisions binding on their membership by majority vote? The WTO and NATO are examples of bodies taking serious decisions, binding on their membership which use unanimity. The UN General Assembly is an example of an international organisation using majority votes, but that is why its powers must be so limited to prevent it imposing 'serious' decisions on its membership. The EU crisis of democratic legitimacy only began in the early 1990s when majority voting was intrdouced. It has grown and grown and grown since then, and would get worse under Lisbon which simply perpetuates the same old policies that created the current mess.
