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What Is This Lisbon Treaty All About?

IRockUrSocks

Personally, I've read a few leaflets on it but they are just as misleading as they were a few months ago. Can anybody really make it clear to us what the pro's and con's are? Fianna Fail sure are having a hard time doing that...

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The_Minister

thomond2006 wrote: »

+1

Since when did anyone give two ****s about what those a-holes say?

He was being sarcastic I think:)

Although, if Sinn Fein start getting moral and talking about of the country with regards to Lisbon so soon (say the next two weeks) after Ferris met the McCabe killers as they left jail I will go ballistic.

Euro_Kraut

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you not think that they will ratify it anyway, and give Ireland clauses if it fails again?

I guess its possible that will happen. Not sure if that would be positive for Ireland though.

I'll be voting yes. I am in favour of greater European integration. Some (not all) decisions are better made at a european level. Ireland could benefit a lot over the coming years from closers links to the European mainland - particulary in terms of social policy. We need to look to Finland more and Britian less.

This is a good treaty, not a great treaty. But we should never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

IRockUrSocks

The_Minister wrote: »

He was being sarcastic I think:)

Although, if Sinn Fein start getting moral and talking about of the country with regards to Lisbon so soon (say the next two weeks) after Ferris met the McCabe killers as they left jail I will go ballistic.

What are Sinn Feins gripes with the treaty as a whole?

And since when have the Irish Republic listened to them during the last so and so decades?

The_Minister

dlofnep wrote: »

I was told that the last time.

Except we all knew it wasn't true last time.
This time various European Officials have said that Europe will have to move on if it is rejected, and a French minister visiting Ireland recently said that it doesn't matter what Ireland does, so long as they do it quickly.
There will not be another vote on the Lisbon treaty.

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you not think that they will ratify it anyway, and give Ireland clauses if it fails again?

I don't actually (although technically the Dail could ratify most of the treaty). The Treaty requires the agreement of all countries according to their constitutional rules. Ireland has to say yes. The only other option would be to kick Ireland out of the Union (an unpalatable and extreme move).

The clauses we got this time are there to fix non-existant problems.
Abortions, conscription etc, are all in people's heads.
If Ireland was to require substantive changes to the treaty, then other countries would demand similar concessions, and the whole thing would have to be renegotiated.

dlofnep wrote: »

Same shít, different shade of brown, tbh.

To follow on with your language, tough shít.
Changes need to be made in the structure of Europe, these changes will be made even if they have to be ratified by the Dail.
On the issues of how those changes are made and what specifically they are is open to debate though. The majority of the Lisbon treaty does not necasserily fall into this catagory.

An Fear Aniar

This referendum means that the votes cast in the last referendum were worthless.

It would be easier to vote NO now than have to get into armed insurrection (again) 20 years down the road.

Serious business. Vote NO.

.

weeder

cherryghost wrote: »

Vote No?

1 internet for you sir

K-9

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Gerry Adams correctly quoted “The people said no. Exactly the same treaty is being presented once again.” he also stated that it was a "bad treaty" and put it to the people not to be swayed by propaganda

LOLZ

Darlughda wrote: »

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

Its ok, female babies will be included too, if we haven't forced abortions by then.

annabellee77

Darlughda wrote: »

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

Well, I'm still quite undecided......but if any statement was gonna push me to the YES side.......this is it!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::D

TheZohanS

K-9 wrote: »

Its ok, female babies will be included too, if we haven't forced abortions by then.

Stop scaremongering.

We'll only have forced abortions if people vote No...and our economy will be in the sh!t.

Pygmalion

Darlughda wrote: »

No male baby I cuddle in my arms today is ever going to be forced to fight in organised murder if I can help it. That is why I am voting NO to Lisbon.

You would be against conscription.
That's great.

Now why are you using that as your reasoning for voting no to the Lisbon treaty? The Lisbon treaty says nothing about conscription and won't change a single law related to it.

IRockUrSocks

Wow, the poll is the closest it's ever been. I'm going to go all out and vote accordingly to this polls outcome.

squod

I've another way of looking at this treaty.

Let's say a yes vote happens and Qualified Majority Voting is introduced.

Go along with me.

So, Im a state and I want X thing to get passed via this process.
Wouldn't it make sense for me then to wait until the balance of favour is on my side with regard getting X passed. As in a number of like minded states wanting to change, let's say, the common agricultural policy for example.

Also it'd make easier states to informally approach each other, with a view to internal bargaining among members for votes in favour of X, or whatever.

Remember no state so far has passed lisbon via a public vote.

Last poll done in the UK showed a massive majority would reject the Lisbon treaty if they were asked to vote.

Why do you think the recent polls here are so close to a 50/50 split?

To me voting again on lisbon doesn't make sense.

phasers

Please everybody vote no, every time there's any kind of national votey thing my mam bakes a cake.

I'm not sure why.

Feathers

People give out about voters with a "don't know, vote no" attitude. "Why don't you let the people who do know decide for you & stay at home on polling day?" I heard this advice given to people last time. What rubbish.

We're being given a broad overview of changes under the Lisbon Treaty in a patronising booklet & then being asked, on the whole, to trust the politicians when they tell us it will be good for us. Hmm, I wonder why people have a hard time trusting our politicians?

Added to this - opinion around everyday people in Europe (& the defeat of the EU Constitution in France/Denmark) points to the fact that most people in European don't want this to pass. We're being asked to pass a treaty that the bureaucrats aren't willing to put to their own people for a vote, because they know it would fail. Not a cause to be skeptical?

Everyone also keeps telling us that X, Y and Z will/won't be brought in if Lisbon is passed.

The trouble with the Lisbon Treaty, is that it isn't easily boiled down to its core ideas: we have a referendum on divorce - vote Yes if you want it, No if you don't. Simple. The Lisbon Treaty seems to propose fairly wide policies in certain areas, rather than the laws themselves - these aren't formulated yet.

Justice Iarlaith O'Neill, head of the Referendum Commission last time out, was asked on RTÉ Radio if abortion could be brought in under Lisbon - he spend two minutes shuffling papers & ended up dodging the question.

If the person who is in charge of informing the general public about the document can't give a clear, concise answer, it's a bit stupid telling people that it's simple & that they should understand it. & of course there will be scaremongering going on.

All that said, of course Lisbon will pass - as the government are scaremongering themselves with regard to the economy.

cooperguy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not surprising at all that Sinn Fein has stuck to its policy of last year on a NO vote.

Gerry Adams correctly quoted “The people said no. Exactly the same treaty is being presented once again.” he also stated that it was a "bad treaty" and put it to the people not to be swayed by propaganda and the current economic climate.

With Libertas gone Sinn Féin now looks set to be the only remaining well financed voice in the anti-Lisbon camp.

Last year, the party’s key arguments against the treaty were claims it would end Ireland’s automatic right to a commissioner, it would erode neutrality and undermine workers’ rights

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0810/breaking1.htm

Of coarse the fact that we were loosing the "Irish" commisioner under the Nice Treaty and not the Lisbon treaty, that it doesnt in any way effect our neutrality and if anything strengthens the rights of workers due to the Charter of Fundamental Rights included in the treaty didnt for a second stop them making those claims!!

K-9

squod wrote: »

I've another way of looking at this treaty.

Let's say a yes vote happens and Qualified Majority Voting is introduced.

Go along with me.

So, Im a state and I want X thing to get passed via this process.
Wouldn't it make sense for me then to wait until the balance of favour is on my side with regard getting X passed. As in a number of like minded states wanting to change, let's say, the common agricultural policy for example.

Also it'd make easier states to informally approach each other, with a view to internal bargaining among members for votes in favour of X, or whatever.

Remember no state so far has passed lisbon via a public vote.

Last poll done in the UK showed a massive majority would reject the Lisbon treaty if they were asked to vote.

Why do you think the recent polls here are so close to a 50/50 split?

To me voting again on lisbon doesn't make sense.

The above isn't a bad summary of how the EU works anyway and always has. Vetoes are rarely used and it is about cooperation. Losing vetoes sounds scarey if you don't realise that.

No other state has passed it by a public vote because their constitution doesn't require it. The UK and Germany had legal challenges to that. We are indeed the odd one out on Referenda.

On the UK, tbh, I think the problem there isn't so much Lisbon, it's more the EU. They've opted out of the Euro and many other things and still they are eurosceptic.

Feathers wrote: »

People give out about voters with a "don't know, vote no" attitude. "Why don't you let the people who do know decide for you & stay at home on polling day?" I heard this advice given to people last time. What rubbish.

We're being given a broad overview of changes under the Lisbon Treaty in a patronising booklet & then being asked, on the whole, to trust the politicians when they tell us it will be good for us. Hmm, I wonder why people have a hard time trusting our politicians?

Added to this - opinion around everyday people in Europe (& the defeat of the EU Constitution in France/Denmark) points to the fact that most people in European don't want this to pass. We're being asked to pass a treaty that the bureaucrats aren't willing to put to their own people for a vote, because they know it would fail. Not a cause to be skeptical?

Everyone also keeps telling us that X, Y and Z will/won't be brought in if Lisbon is passed.

The trouble with the Lisbon Treaty, is that it isn't easily boiled down to its core ideas: we have a referendum on divorce - vote Yes if you want it, No if you don't. Simple. The Lisbon Treaty seems to propose fairly wide policies in certain areas, rather than the laws themselves - these aren't formulated yet.

Justice Iarlaith O'Neill, head of the Referendum Commission last time out, was asked on RTÉ Radio if abortion could be brought in under Lisbon - he spend two minutes shuffling papers & ended up dodging the question.

If the person who is in charge of informing the general public about the document can't give a clear, concise answer, it's a bit stupid telling people that it's simple & that they should understand it. & of course there will be scaremongering going on.

All that said, of course Lisbon will pass - as the government are scaremongering themselves with regard to the economy.

The booklet isn't patronising! Many people want a booklet like that as they don't have the time or inclination to read more on it. The Treaty is available to read if that is your inclination.

As for abortion, it is clear our position will not be affected.

colly10

One question on the treaty, if it gets passed will the people get to vote on future treatys?

WeeBushy

colly10 wrote: »

One question on the treaty, if it gets passed will the people get to vote on future treatys?

Yes, and don't let any no-voter tell you otherwise. Our constitution requires referendums on any further treaty or modification of part there of.

K-9

colly10 wrote: »

One question on the treaty, if it gets passed will the people get to vote on future treatys?

Yes, Croatia will be next.

There is a thing called a self amending clause which the No side uses to argue otherwise. It ignores that any amending has to be done within each countries Constitutional requirements.

The_Minister

colly10 wrote: »

One question on the treaty, if it gets passed will the people get to vote on future treatys?

WeeBushy wrote: »

Yes, and don't let any no-voter tell you otherwise. Our constitution requires referendums on any further treaty or modification of part there of.

If you read the judgement of Crotty v. An Taoiseach you will see that actually, with the exception of foreign policy decisions, we don't have to have a referendum at all at the moment.

Why doesn't anyone listen?

/cries

K-9

The_Minister wrote: »

If you read the judgement of Crotty v. An Taoiseach you will see that actually, with the exception of foreign policy decisions, we don't have to have a referendum at all at the moment.

Why doesn't anyone listen?

/cries

Fair point.

procure11

thomond2006 wrote: »

+1

Since when did anyone give two ****s about what those a-holes say?

Honestly I would not be surprised if the Irish people vote NO once again.

I have tried my best to read the Lisbon treaty and it just seems to me as a slightly revised version of the EU constitution rejected by the French and the Dutch...hence it is unsurprising that the aforementioned nations decided to ratify the treaty the treaty without another referenda.

I have listened to the Govt and the Yes voters and all they seem to be doing is consistently patronising the the public and educating them on how on stupid and unintelligent it would be for them to reject this treaty.We are constantly bombarded about the how Ireland would be economically destroyed and politically villified if we say NO again!!!...

The Yes side come across as very pompous ,elitist and condecending...Ordinary folks dont listen to such !!!!

The_Minister

procure11 wrote: »

I have listened to the Govt and the Yes voters and all they seem to be doing is consistently patronising the the public and educating them on how on stupid and unintelligent it would be for them to reject this treaty.We are constantly bombarded about the how Ireland would be economically destroyed and politically villified if we say NO again!!!...

The Yes side come across as very pompous ,elitist and condecending...Ordinary folks dont listen to such !!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61556595&postcount=59
Not the entire Yes side.

K-9

procure11 wrote: »

Honestly I would not be surprised if the Irish people vote NO once again.

I have tried my best to read the Lisbon treaty and it just seems to me as a slightly revised version of the EU constitution rejected by the French and the Dutch...hence it is unsurprising that the aforementioned nations decided to ratify the treaty the treaty without another referenda.

I have listened to the Govt and the Yes voters and all they seem to be doing is consistently patronising the the public and educating them on how on stupid and unintelligent it would be for them to reject this treaty.We are constantly bombarded about the how Ireland would be economically destroyed and politically villified if we say NO again!!!...

The Yes side come across as very pompous ,elitist and condecending...Ordinary folks dont listen to such !!!!

In fairness there are some on the No side who just seek offense, even if none is intended. I don't know why that is, as their points should stand for themselves and they shouldn't need stuff like this to prove a point or whatever.

I do believe rational people do not believe abortion, conscription or taxation are under threat, but still some believe this. Probably is better to ignore but I hate thinking somebody would read the points and believe them.

PS. The referendum point being a case in point. I like people asking is it an issue, but I hate people quoting the Treaty to say this is so. If they quoted the Treaty properly, it isn't an issue!

procure11

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61556595&postcount=59
Not the entire Yes side.

Excellent .The truth however is that you would be in the minority,I would like you to visit the EU forum on boards....very one sided to say the least.Incidentally all polls on this site suggests a No victory...and this in my opinion could be alluded to the superior complex on the Yes side.

IRockUrSocks

These are the main features of the Lisbon Treaty:

The Lisbon Treaty:

sets out the Union’s values – including respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights including the rights of minorities;

defines the EU’s competences more clearly than in previous Treaties and makes it clear that competences not explicitly conferred on the Union remain with the Member States;

gives legal effect to the Charter of Fundamental Rights and recognises the rights, freedoms and principles set out in the Charter;

will allow the EU to accede to the European Convention on Human Rights;

allows for a citizens’ initiative under which 1 million citizens from a number of Member States can petition the European Commission on issues falling within the EU’s competence;

expands the right of individuals to bring proceedings before the European Court of Justice in relation to acts of the Union;

gives a new role in EU affairs to national parliaments including the Oireachtas.

increases the powers of the European Parliament, which under Lisbon will have 751 members including 12 from Ireland. Under Lisbon, the European Parliament will legislate jointly on most EU issues with the Council of Ministers, where the Irish Government is represented alongside the governments of the other 26 EU Member States;

provides for the appointment of a President of the European Council who will hold office for a maximum period of 5 years and will chair four meetings of EU leaders each year;

allows for more decisions to be taken by the Council of Ministers on a new double majority basis, i.e. by at least 15 EU countries representing at least 65% of the Union’s population;

makes changes in the conduct of the Union’s external relations including by the appointment of a High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy;

gives citizens the right to deal with the EU institutions in any EU language including Irish;

makes a number of changes to the EU Treaties in respect of border checks, asylum and immigration, judicial cooperation in civil and criminal matters and police cooperation. Ireland is not bound by measures adopted in these areas, but can opt to be involved on a case-by-case basis;

gives the European Union some new competences in such areas as energy, humanitarian aid, tourism, sport, administrative cooperation and the participation by young people in the democratic life of Europe. Climate change is also a new political objective, given expression in the Treaty on foot of a proposal by Ireland."

Under an arrangement known as ‘enhanced cooperation’, the Treaty lays down the procedures for allowing a group of Member States to cooperate more deeply in certain areas of EU policy. This arrangement does not apply in the field of common foreign and security policy.

These are for people who may not fully understand each individual proposal of the Treaty.

K-9

procure11 wrote: »

Excellent .The truth however is that you would be in the minority,I would like you to visit the EU forum on boards....very one sided to say the least.Incidentally all polls on this site suggests a No victory...and this in my opinion could be alluded to the superior complex on the Yes side.

Suppose it depends on what perspective you are coming from. If somebody asks a genuine question on there they are usually treated with respect. If somebody just posts verbatem from another site, they usually will be scoffed at.

Unfortunately there seems to be very few middle ground posters over there.

The_Minister

procure11 wrote: »

Excellent .The truth however is that you would be in the minority,I would like you to visit the EU forum on boards....very one sided to say the least.Incidentally all polls on this site suggests a No victory...and this in my opinion could be alluded to the superior complex on the Yes side.

Firstly that not what alluded means - you mean attributed to.:)

Secondly, most Yes side voters would be like me.
It's just hard not to get frustrated when certain No siders come out with rather bizarre claims such as conscription.

IRockUrSocks

The_Minister wrote: »

Firstly that not what alluded means - you mean attributed to.:)

Secondly, most Yes side voters would be like me.
It's just hard not to get frustrated when certain No siders come out with rather bizarre claims such as conscription.

Yes. One of the legal guarantees secured by Ireland confirms that the Lisbon Treaty does not affect or prejudice Ireland’s traditional policy of military neutrality. This legal guarantee confirms that there will be no conscription and no European army. It also makes clear that nothing in the Lisbon Treaty will take away from Ireland’s entitlement to determine the nature or volume of our defence expenditure.

Primarily, the No Side should have a good nose at the Treaty itself before speaking on something which they haven't read. I'm in the process of doing just that.

procure11

K-9 wrote: »

Suppose it depends on what perspective you are coming from. If somebody asks a genuine question on there they are usually treated with respect. If somebody just posts verbatem from another site, they usually will be scoffed at.

Unfortunately there seems to be very few middle ground posters over there.

You have a valid point but the fact is the Irish people have a very legitimate right to be upset because they have to vote again on an almost a similar treaty .I can reason with you that a lot of people would say things that are off topic and sometimes senseless but IMHO I think they are entitled to do so because they casted their vote not too long ago.

Most of the Yes side are focused on what would be good for Ireland vis a vis Europe .We want to know what the future holds...is it going to be same old politics of ...you didnt get right first off sh..ite or are they going to listen to the populace?

P.S...I dont mean the usual how Europe built/saved /rescued Ireland 10/20 years ago...stale news!!!...we could equally boast about the Polish/Lituanians in a few years time.