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Pint prices to rise again?

BraziliaNZ

How on earth can they even be considering this? I used to go to my local once or twice a week a few years ago, now i never go, I'd usually just go out once a week in town. And they wonder why business is so bad? Raising the price of a pint is the solution? Are these people drop-dead stupid or what? I love when i see pubs closing down due to lack of business, they deserve it the greedy pigs. If prices go up again I'm saving my money and drinking abroad every couple of months, or driving up north!

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pubs-ponder-dearer-pints-after-price-freeze-breach-1846071.html

By Tim Healy and Breda Heffernan

Thursday July 30 2009

Publicans were last night mulling over whether to raise the price of a pint after a High Court case which forced the end of a price freeze.

It was still unclear last night whether the price of a pint would go up or, more unlikely, go down, following the High Court ruling that a price freeze by publicans amounted to a breach of competition rules.

Industry sources admitted to having "no idea" what the outcome of the court decision would be for drinkers, although some sources suggested it would be "insane" for publicans to put up the price of drink in a recession.

The Licensed Vintners' Association and the Vintners' Federation of Ireland announced a 12-month price freeze on December 1 last year in a bid to encourage drinkers back to the country's pubs.

However, the High Court last week found the two groups were in contempt of court by recommending the pricing initiative.

Mr Justice Liam McKechnie yesterday ruled that an announcement by the publicans' organisations reversing the price freeze was a sufficient response; however, he ordered that they should take out advertisements in three Sunday newspapers outlining that the freeze is no longer in operation.

The court was told that the LVA and VFI had issued a press release on Tuesday countermanding the freeze announcement and had also sent letters to all their members notifying them of the countermanding decision.

Contempt

The Competition Authority had brought the action seeking to have the organisations found in contempt of court because the price freeze breached an undertakings previously given by them in a 2003 settlement of previous proceedings over alleged drink price fixing.

The court heard the Competition Authority was not looking for any penal consequences for the publicans and was only interested in upholding the law.

Yesterday, after being told by counsel for the organisations that they unreservedly apologised for their contempt, the judge said he was satisfied with their unconditional apology and with the press release/letters countermanding the original announcement.

"I am satisfied the steps taken by both associations countermanding the 2008 announcement, and the letters sent to their members, is a sufficient and adequate response to my judgment given last Friday," he said.

Counsel for the Competition Authority argued publicity for the countermanding notice should be equivalent to the amount of publicity the price freeze announcement received last year, through some form of advertising in the national press.

The judge said the publicans should place advertisements containing the press release in three Sunday newspapers this week.

He also gave permission to the Competition Authority to put his judgment in the matter on its website.

- Tim Healy and Breda Heffernan

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rubadub

senordingdong wrote: »

How do these pubs circumvent the rules?

Because there are no rules, it is just a suggestion, "the economist" made a great post about it all earlier.

senordingdong

So it's not illeagal to advertise and pimp cheap booze?

bleg

senordingdong wrote: »

So it's not illeagal to advertise and pimp cheap booze?

So long as they're not part of a promotion and the price is kept at the same price the whole time.

Nick_oliveri

Really? I know of one such pub doing a tuesday promo...
All drinks 3.50 :<

bleg

I think they were made illegal at the same time as happy hours were. Definitely could be wrong though.

rubadub

senordingdong wrote: »

So it's not illeagal to advertise and pimp cheap booze?

How do you think they would word such a law? how can you define "cheap"?

AFAIK they can put complaints in against promoting binge drinking or abuse. e.g. if a pub had an offer of 5 shots of tequila which must be ordered at the same time it is not automatically illegal, but locals whos cars are being smashed up because of it could put in a complaint.

The "happy hour" law stops prices going down during the day, they can raise them all they want. So many pubs have "happy days", or what is happening more is "happy openings", i.e. the pub only opens at 5pm and has cheap booze till 7 or 8pm, then put it up. Just like pubs put the price up at 11pm

bleg

Bring back café bars!!

ShooterSF

chalad07 wrote: »

Am i missing the point entirely here - but is there no a huge opportunity here for some publicans willing to drop their prices? Surely the volume of trade would increase?

If a bar in a good location (eg Dublin city centre, Camden St, etc) started selling pints at 3eur, the amount of customers would go through the roof. Is it not better to have 200 people paying 3eur, than 100 people paying 5? Obv. I've no idea of the figures involved but there bound to be some bars out there relishing the chance of dropping prices and getting some good honest competition going?

It's crazy. A lot of pub owners seem to think that the current amount of people going to pubs is a set number with no outside influences on it and the only way to maximise profits is to charge as much as they can. I worked in a nightclub years ago and suggested we drop prices to €3 a drink to compete with a new club that had taken over the current crowd. The owner blocked the idea on the grounds that the other club would just drop it's prices too and we'd still have the same ammount of punters but earn less. There was no explaining to him that two clubs with these kind of offers would attract more customers and maybe even out of town trade or that people don't really spend less in a €3 club as they tend to buy more shots and just generally be more willing to to go to the club without consuming a dozen bottles at home.

Raskolnikov

Do people actually still bother with pubs?

House parties for the win.

ToTheSea:

GDM wrote: »

you don't run the risk of a random stranger puking on your shoes on the way home.

I completely agree! I only let close friends and family puke on my shoes. Stranger danger!

Cookie_Monster

Must watch out for a sneaky 5c extra tonite then:eek:

tommyfitz

There was a pub in Navan a few years ago that was selling drink cheaper, but the owner got a visit from local vintners association and he was told to put up his prices. They are a cartel, its the same with petrol prices, they all fix the prices.

Tubberadora

chalad07 wrote: »

Am i missing the point entirely here - but is there no a huge opportunity here for some publicans willing to drop their prices? Surely the volume of trade would increase?

If a bar in a good location (eg Dublin city centre, Camden St, etc) started selling pints at 3eur, the amount of customers would go through the roof. Is it not better to have 200 people paying 3eur, than 100 people paying 5? Obv. I've no idea of the figures involved but there bound to be some bars out there relishing the chance of dropping prices and getting some good honest competition going?

You are misssing the point slightly.
For instance we will say that the cost of serving a pint is 2.00. This figure includes everything. Rent, rates, cost of drink, taxes, wages etc.

Selling 100 @ 5.00 gives you a profit of 300 100 @ 5.00 = 500 Minus the cost of 100 @ 2.00 = 300 profit.
To make the same profit selling at 3.00 a pint you would need to sell 300 pints. 300 @ 3.00 = 900 Minus the cost of 300 @ 2.00 = 300 profit

Most of the taxes and various charges are fixed, so in order for a pub to drop prices by 2.00 they have to increase sales 3 fold. This is probably not feasabile in most places.

Parsley

Aidric wrote: »

You really have to stop and wonder what logic these goons are working off.

Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. If people are still willing to go out and pay these prices for their booze in pubs, publicans will keep the prices high.

Saruman

bleg wrote: »

So long as they're not part of a promotion and the price is kept at the same price the whole time.

How do you mean part of a promotion? I know of a few pubs that have "promotions" of a particular beer on certain nights or through certain weeks. A beer of the day/week sort of thing.

If it is illegal I will keep my mouth shut as it seems perfectly fine to me.

rubadub

Tubberadora wrote: »

Most of the taxes and various charges are fixed, so in order for a pub to drop prices by 2.00 they have to increase sales 3 fold. This is probably not feasabile in most places.

I reckon my local has certainly dropped business by over 1/3rd, place is fairly empty, so are many pubs I have heard of, one mate works in a pub in Ardee and said the place used to be packed and had 6 customers on on particular friday or saturday some night.

WeeBushy

Saruman wrote: »

How do you mean part of a promotion? I know of a few pubs that have "promotions" of a particular beer on certain nights or through certain weeks. A beer of the day/week sort of thing.

If it is illegal I will keep my mouth shut as it seems perfectly fine to me.

AKAIK you can't, for example. advertise "all drinks 2 euro" around college campuses anymore. Now whether this falls under "no drinks promotions allowed" or "no advertising that promotes binge-drinking" I don't know. But I do think there were restrictions on advertising brought in at the same time they reduced opening hours in off-licenses to 10pm.

Could be wrong on this but that was my understanding...

rubadub

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0031/sec0025.html

"Happy hour" law

Section 20 prohibits the supply of intoxicating liquor at a reduced price during a limited period after 10.30 a.m. on any day, e.g. “happy hours”. This is intended to discourage practices which may lead to excessive consumption of intoxicating liquor. It is not intended to prohibit retail practices such as “sales” or product promotions over a number of days.

20.—(1) A licensee shall not supply intoxicating liquor on the licensed premises at a reduced price during a limited period on any day.

(2) In subsection (1), “reduced price” means a price less than that regularly being charged for the intoxicating liquor during an earlier period after 10.30 a.m. (12.30 p.m. on a Sunday) on the day concerned.

(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence under this section and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding—

(a) for a first offence, €1,500, or

(b) for a second or any subsequent offence, €2,000.

"10 tequilas for €10" law

Section 22 provides for the making of regulations to prohibit or restrict licensees from engaging in promotional practices that are intended or likely to encourage persons to consume alcohol to an excessive extent and, secondly, to specify particulars to be affixed to any container in which intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption off the premises which enable the licensee and the licensed premises concerned to be identified.

As regards the former, the Commission on Liquor Licensing recommended that promotional practices that are conductive to or likely to result in excessive consumption of alcohol should be prohibited by law. This view is supported by the Strategic Task Force on Alcohol.

22.—(1) Without prejudice to section 20 , regulations made by the Minister may make provision in relation to the following matters:

(a) prohibiting or restricting a licensee from doing or permitting, for the purposes of promoting the licensee's business or any event or activity taking place on the licensed premises, anything that is intended or likely to encourage persons on those premises to consume intoxicating liquor to an excessive extent, and

(b) particulars, to be affixed to any container in which intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption off licensed premises, which are adequate to enable the licensee and licensed premises concerned to be identified.

(2) The regulations may provide that any licensee who contravenes any of their provisions is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding—

(a) for a first offence, €1,500, or

(b) for a second or subsequent offence, €2,000.

(3) Every regulation under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling it is passed by either House within the next subsequent 21 days on which that House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, it shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under it.

seems the labelling never happened,

As regards labelling requirements, section 17 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000 provides that the name of the owner, and the address, of premises shall be clearly indicated on a label to be affixed to any container in which intoxicating liquor is sold for consumption off the premises. This section has not been commenced and is now repealed.

I remember talk of being able to prosecute offies if kids had their booze.

my comments on these earlier

rubadub wrote: »

AFAIK they can put complaints in against promoting binge drinking or abuse. e.g. if a pub had an offer of 5 shots of tequila which must be ordered at the same time it is not automatically illegal, but locals whos cars are being smashed up because of it could put in a complaint.

The "happy hour" law stops prices going down during the day, they can raise them all they want. So many pubs have "happy days", or what is happening more is "happy openings", i.e. the pub only opens at 5pm and has cheap booze till 7 or 8pm, then put it up. Just like pubs put the price up at 11pm

there are other loopholes for happy hour I have not seen exploited, like having say only absolut vodka at €1 per shot, but mysteriously only coming into stock at 6pm and running out at 8pm.

Nick_oliveri

Its a load of bollocks. As if some folk dont drink to get drunk on weekends or any given night or day. Promote binge drinking. Well what the **** happens on a club night, a stag, hen, wake or a wedding? Should these be banned too? Shall we purchase drinking licences annually too?

I lurve mah local. But cider is way too expensive in le pube!

Saruman

So does the happy hour law only mean you can not have a special for a certain period of the day but a promotional beer of the day/week type thing is fine as long as it is that price all day/week?

Quint

20.—(1) A licensee shall not supply intoxicating liquor on the licensed premises at a reduced price during a limited period on any day.

What about all the pubs in Dublin city that charge cheaper rates during the day and up the price?

bleg

Blind eye turned to them I'd say.

aidan24326

Tubberadora wrote: »

You are misssing the point slightly.
For instance we will say that the cost of serving a pint is 2.00. This figure includes everything. Rent, rates, cost of drink, taxes, wages etc.

Selling 100 @ 5.00 gives you a profit of 300 100 @ 5.00 = 500 Minus the cost of 100 @ 2.00 = 300 profit.
To make the same profit selling at 3.00 a pint you would need to sell 300 pints. 300 @ 3.00 = 900 Minus the cost of 300 @ 2.00 = 300 profit

Most of the taxes and various charges are fixed, so in order for a pub to drop prices by 2.00 they have to increase sales 3 fold. This is probably not feasabile in most places.

Thing is, the price drop doesn't have to be as drastic as 2 euro to get people's attention. Even a smaller reduction will get still people through the door. It isn't necessary for a pub to plummet their prices all the way down to 3 euro for a pint. It's understandable that city centre locations with late bars, extra staffing, bands etc may need to charge a little extra, but it's the blatantly greedy rip-off prices of some places that are off-putting, and I just wish people would start to boycott pubs that are charging up to 6 euro a pint.

One or two places have taken the lead though. As was mentioned in an earlier post, The Scene (what used to be Major Toms) in Stephen's Green does all drinks (pints, bottles, shorts) for 3.50 all the time (though goes up to a fiver after midnight at the weekends) and The Purty Kitchen does Heineken and Paulaner for 3.50. Hopefully more of this will catch on.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

rubadub

Saruman wrote: »

So does the happy hour law only mean you can not have a special for a certain period of the day but a promotional beer of the day/week type thing is fine as long as it is that price all day/week?

Quint wrote: »

What about all the pubs in Dublin city that charge cheaper rates during the day and up the price?

bleg wrote: »

Blind eye turned to them I'd say.

It is legal, as I explained already

rubadub wrote: »

The "happy hour" law stops prices going down during the day, they can raise them all they want. So many pubs have "happy days", or what is happening more is "happy openings", i.e. the pub only opens at 5pm and has cheap booze till 7 or 8pm, then put it up. Just like pubs put the price up at 11pm

The trick with "happy openings" is they can simply claim the cheap price IS the regular price.

worded

gurramok wrote: »

According to here http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/tddrinklobbyscandal.htm

40% of FF TD's are publicans.(2006)

That explains everything

chalad07

Tubberadora wrote: »

You are misssing the point slightly.
For instance we will say that the cost of serving a pint is 2.00. This figure includes everything. Rent, rates, cost of drink, taxes, wages etc.

Selling 100 @ 5.00 gives you a profit of 300 100 @ 5.00 = 500 Minus the cost of 100 @ 2.00 = 300 profit.
To make the same profit selling at 3.00 a pint you would need to sell 300 pints. 300 @ 3.00 = 900 Minus the cost of 300 @ 2.00 = 300 profit

Most of the taxes and various charges are fixed, so in order for a pub to drop prices by 2.00 they have to increase sales 3 fold. This is probably not feasabile in most places.

The figures i'm using are just of the top of my head and only meant to illustrate a point - that bars could make more money with more customers. Just have pints at 3Eur (or whatever) to get people in the door. It'll get a big crowd in, plus people will bring friends, and buy other drinks that arn't on special.

If one or two bars were known as being a cheap night out then you could be sure they'd be packed. I'm based in New York at the moment, and there are some bars with great specials on, and these places are heaving most of the time, all the while the 'trendy', fancy bars with their $8 beers are empty.

gurramok

chalad07 wrote: »

The figures i'm using are just of the top of my head and only meant to illustrate a point - that bars could make more money with more customers. Just have pints at 3Eur (or whatever) to get people in the door. It'll get a big crowd in, plus people will bring friends, and buy other drinks that arn't on special.

Can't have that, the publicans will have to break a sweat!

Red Sleeping Beauty

Saruman wrote: »

How does that work Alan? Pubs have to advertise their prices so if someone sticks a big poster in the window saying all draught beers are €3 they are complying with the law and the fact it is pretty cheap does not matter. You can not have one law saying you have to advertise your price and another saying you can not advertise your price if it is too cheap

Being honest here, I've no idea. It's kinda one of those barfly rumours I heard. I'm pretty sure happy hour promotions aren't allowed anyway.

I've always wondered though why so few places have drinks promotions. I was in Glasgow a while ago and there was a bar with bottles of Fosters for £0.79!! As far as I know the cheapest place for drinksin Dublin is Karma at €3 for bottles and shots. They've a load of posters in their window so we'll see what happens if they get in trouble I suppose.

Hey, I want affordable drink rather than the rip off €4+ for a pint we've got.