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Why voting no?

Ellie The Mess

Yes, I know, there are probably about a million other threads on this subject but, indeed, I do feel the need to start a new one because, well, I started getting a little bit confused after, having read the 100th page on other threads, nobody had really told me what the reasons for a no vote were yet.

So I'm asking you, people of Ireland, why should an Irish person go and vote no in October even when the protocol is passed?

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PopeBuckfastXVI

We should have a GE tomorrow, the government has no support (or certainly nothing like a majority), you are correct, the countries opinion has changed.

Also we should have another referendum on Lisbon, if the countries opinion has changed, in light of the further guarantees sought and given.

And, of course, if the countries opinion hasn't changed, the country will vote 'no' again.

RedPlanet

turgon wrote: »

Does Dinner think that once we say no to something we can never ever ever even be asked about it again?? Is that you idea of "democracy"?

That's an odd position.
Because, we don't get to vote on Nice again now do we?
Once the Yes carries, we never get to change our mind.

turgon

RedPlanet wrote: »

That's an odd position.
Because, we don't get to vote on Nice again now do we?
Once the Yes carries, we never get to change our mind.

Im sure that if we elected members to the Dail who wanted to get rid of Nice we would be pretty fast in getting multiple refernda seeking to undo it.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Lisbon is a changing of Nice, so yes, you could say we get to vote again. A 'No' to Lisbon is a 'Yes' to Nice.

As for rolling it back, elect a government on that platform, then come back to me.

marco_polo

RedPlanet wrote: »

That's an odd position.
Because, we don't get to vote on Nice again now do we?
Once the Yes carries, we never get to change our mind.

Indeed, if only there was some mechanism by which the changes made to the constitution for Nice could be undone by means some sort of popular vote.

ixtlan

marco_polo wrote: »

Indeed, if only there was some mechanism by which the changes made to the constitution for Nice could be undone by means some sort of popular vote.

Of course there is no direct way. However if such changes were of enough concern to people they would elect TDs and a government to negotiate EU changes. And since there is always a new treaty in development there is always an opportunity.

On the matter of the government not running a general election now, but running Lisbon again, they are doing what is legal. They can stay in power until 2012 assuming enough Dail support, and they can run another referendum.

If people are not happy with this, the time to change it is at the next GE whenever that is... making it an election promise to change the constitution in some way through referendum. However I think I would vote against a change that said that opinion polls should trigger a GE. At the moment I would not mind a GE, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to protest on the streets, and allowing polls to trigger elections is going to create incredibly weak governments and a very unstable country. Whose polls? Who monitors those polls? Or street protests? Who counts the people? How do we know they represent a real majority of the people?

Ix

marco_polo

ixtlan wrote: »

Of course there is no direct way. However if such changes were of enough concern to people they would elect TDs and a government to negotiate EU changes. And since there is always a new treaty in development there is always an opportunity.

On the matter of the government not running a general election now, but running Lisbon again, they are doing what is legal. They can stay in power until 2012 assuming enough Dail support, and they can run another referendum.

If people are not happy with this, the time to change it is at the next GE whenever that is... making it an election promise to change the constitution in some way through referendum. However I think I would vote against a change that said that opinion polls should trigger a GE. At the moment I would not mind a GE, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to protest on the streets, and allowing polls to trigger elections is going to create incredibly weak governments and a very unstable country. Whose polls? Who monitors those polls? Or street protests? Who counts the people? How do we know they represent a real majority of the people?

Ix

Sorry that is sort of more what I meant. Step one of undoing the Nice treaty changes would of course be the election of an anti EU government. I was just highlighting the theoretical possibility of re-vote on Nice.

marco_polo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

There is no comparison with Divorce and Abortion because 10 years had elapsed in those cases. If the Government is going to go down the road of arguing that public-opinion has changed since then to justify a second vote, then they should also give us a second General Election as three of out of four people appear to have had a change of heart in their voting for this Government aswell. Or does the rule only apply when it suits FF? :rolleyes:

So we have established it is ok after ten years. How about after nine?

ixtlan

marco_polo wrote: »

Sorry that is sort of more what I meant. Step one of undoing the Nice treaty changes would of course be the election of an anti EU government. I was just highlighting the theoretical possibility of re-vote on Nice.

Indeed... I didn't immediately get the sarcasm

It is an interesting point.

Although it seems everyone is "pro-EU", in reality there is a largish minority in the country who really is "anti-EU". This group wants Ireland to make it's own decisions on most matters. I disagree with this view but it can be argued. However no group ever represents this view. It's like it's something that cannot be said. Everyone has to be "pro-EU" even if their EU is an economic-only block that never really existed.

And I'll add that I appreciate that some of the no posters here are not in this group, but are perhaps in a group in the middle, preferring the EU to hold position here, or to revert to 10 years ago with less influence.

I wonder if we ever would vote for an anti-EU government. Libertas made their play and lost, but I'm sure that there is that large minority out there who will never be convinced by the bona fides of the EU.

Ix

FutureTaoiseach

marco_polo wrote: »

So we have established it is ok after ten years. How about after nine?

You also have to remember the influence of the liberal-revolution on those issues. I don't think something comparable has happened on attitudes to the EU. I know we've had a couple of pro-Lisbon newspaper polls so far this year but EU referenda campaigns always start with large "yes" leads but it ain't over till the fat lady sings and don't know voters have a tendency to vote no in EU referenda in this country (certainly in Amsterdam, Nice I and Lisbon I).

Scofflaw

ixtlan wrote: »

Indeed... I didn't immediately get the sarcasm

It is an interesting point.

Although it seems everyone is "pro-EU", in reality there is a largish minority in the country who really is "anti-EU". This group wants Ireland to make it's own decisions on most matters. I disagree with this view but it can be argued. However no group ever represents this view. It's like it's something that cannot be said. Everyone has to be "pro-EU" even if their EU is an economic-only block that never really existed.

And I'll add that I appreciate that some of the no posters here are not in this group, but are perhaps in a group in the middle, preferring the EU to hold position here, or to revert to 10 years ago with less influence.

I wonder if we ever would vote for an anti-EU government. Libertas made their play and lost, but I'm sure that there is that large minority out there who will never be convinced by the bona fides of the EU.

Ix

There's a large minority out there that want little or nothing to do with the rest of Europe, except as an export and holiday destination.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's a large minority out there that want little or nothing to do with the rest of Europe, except as an export and holiday destination.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Euro has been a success in relation to exports as the UK becomes less important a market. It always will be important obviously, but the Euro has been a great success in making them less so.

Many No campaigners would say the Euro was a failure for us, but ignore that very point. Getting away from our dependence on the UK is extremely important, especially for an open economy like ours.

Exports are probably more important for us than even Germany.

So, even some who only wanted an economic union, still didn't and indeed, don't want the Euro.