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Legal Highs

TedB

I've heard a lot about these so called 'legal highs' in 'headshops' and I have to be honest, I was very skeptical.

1) There's being no research on any of these brands - Pulse, Spice etc. The party pills are particularly dangerous - they have 20 years + research on MDMA, nothing on most of these brands. I don't even think any of them are safety controlled.

AND they are only legal on a technicality. In that, we haven't gotten round to banning these particular substances just yet.

2) I like a bit of weed (Smoke maybe 5 or 6 times a year. Relaxing and a very nice buzz when with a couple of mates enjoying a few tins) So I think to myself - if I can get weed, why the hell would I smoke this crap?

Last night me and a friend tried out the 'Pulse' stuff. Went into a head shop, bought two five euro bags and smoked the balls off it. One five euro bag is the equivilent of a 20 euro bag of weed. Honestly, the stuff blew me away. As strong as weed - if not stronger, considering the quantity we took.

It sets your heartrate mad and it tastes like absolute dung, but it does give you a very very distinct 'high' and a great stoney buss for ages. It seems to be a cocktail of herbs thrown together.

Anyways, what is the story with these legal highs? I can testify that it is as good if not better than the illegal stuff and its so readily available - yet its not the same as weed at all - we don't really know what the long term effects of this stuff is - we know quite a bit about the effects of weed.

I'm not in favour of drugs legalisation, but I am in favour of decriminalising the stuff. It is, after all, a victimless crime (In that the only victim is me, the adult who occasionaly likes to dabble in the odd novelty) So don't try and make this into a drugs legalisation debate.

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jeckel

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

its well known in the medical world that longterm and even short term use of cannabis can lead to psychological(mind) disorders.

no it isn't, that's a crazy little thing called spin.

a study was done that shows that there is a higher percentage of people with a mental illness in a group of 1000 dope smokers than in a random sample of 1000 non-smokers.

this means there is a link but it tells you nothing about cause and effect. are the mental because they smoke or do they smoke because they're mental? the evidence shows that it is the latter, they are self medicating, but that doesn't sound as scarey when "hysterical oul wans against having a good time" spout it on the radio and convince all our self satisfied moral guardians that it's a good reason to send smokers to prison for a giggle and a dose of the munchies.

medical profession my left tit.

ScumLord

StopWhispering wrote: »

Ha ha! Well for want of a better phrase. I think Irish people (of which I am one) just require more legislation than other societies. I think some drugs such as Marijuana should be legalised and regulated but I am unsure whether this is necessarily a good thing for the public.

Thats' fair enough and hard to argue with, but I think the problem is your comparing chalk and cheese and coming out with apples.

Your basing your view of cannabis on the havoc that drink causes every weekend in the country. It seems the argument is alcohol is bad enough why add cannabis to the mix. The major problem with that is that alcohol and cannabis don't really mix. If you do mix the two at best you'll be stuck to your chair for the night or spewing your ring out before you spend the rest of the night in dreamy nighty night land.

So the only real option is either or, people won't make the mistake of mixing the two too often. people don't go loopy when their stoned, it's a very relaxing drug your not going to have fighting or even shouting from people goosed on weed. Now in an either or scenario which drug culture do you think would suit Ireland?

MikeC101

StopWhispering wrote: »

I think Irish people (of which I am one) just require more legislation than other societies.

Do you genuinely believe this?

It smacks of a colonial "ignorant natives need to be kept in line by the empire" mindset...

Unless you consider Irish people to be an incredibly different breed in countries where laws are much more relaxed with regards to alcohol (and drugs) people seem to have a far healthier relationship with these substances. But we're different somehow?

Imagine the outrage if you said "<insert ethnic group here> require more legislation than others."

Vim Fuego

Regarding mental illness, much cannabis in Ireland is 'soapbar' - cut and contaminated hashish. Back in college, you'd see lads burning in and taking out bits of plastic and other crap. I think the majority of heavy users exposed to this trash would develop problems, we simply don't know what is in it. I'd like to see a study on cannabis use confined to 'pure' herbal cannabis.

As for legal highs, never tried any myself but as soon as something gets banned, they will be something else to replace it. People will either start growing their own mushrooms, salvia divinorum, cactii etc. There's an unlimited number of ways to get high, I don't think anything changes the need that exists for people to alter their perception, be it through alcohol or other substances, so there will always be a market.

StopWhispering

MikeC101 wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe this?

It smacks of a colonial "ignorant natives need to be kept in line by the empire" mindset...

Unless you consider Irish people to be an incredibly different breed in countries where laws are much more relaxed with regards to alcohol (and drugs) people seem to have a far healthier relationship with these substances. But we're different somehow?

Imagine the outrage if you said "<insert ethnic group here> require more legislation than others."

I want to not but it's hard to argue for and against it though, isn't it? It just seems that way to me. Ah perhaps I'm wrong, but sure that's what discussion is all about, dispelling and learning new things.

And with regards to your "empire" reference...that is not what I meant at all.

WillieCocker

MikeC101 wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe this?

It smacks of a colonial "ignorant natives need to be kept in line by the empire" mindset...

."

ALA the joke in USA that goes something like......
"God created whiskey to stop the irish ruling the world."

StopWhispering

ScumLord wrote: »

Thats' fair enough and hard to argue with, but I think the problem is your comparing chalk and cheese and coming out with apples.

Your basing your view of cannabis on the havoc that drink causes every weekend in the country. It seems the argument is alcohol is bad enough why add cannabis to the mix. The major problem with that is that alcohol and cannabis don't really mix. If you do mix the two at best you'll be stuck to your chair for the night or spewing your ring out before you spend the rest of the night in dreamy nighty night land.

So the only real option is either or, people won't make the mistake of mixing the two too often. people don't go loopy when their stoned, it's a very relaxing drug your not going to have fighting or even shouting from people goosed on weed. Now in an either or scenario which drug culture do you think would suit Ireland?

Neither of course. But we have had plenty of time to get used to the effects of a drink culture on society. We do not, apart from guessing, have any idea how a marijuana culture would have on society. So to be on the safe side, lets leave things as they are.

marcsignal

The smoke is fine, i'm converted, smoke it openly in my local beer garden, and no grief from old bill, happy days

Degsy wrote: »

......a hideous,hideous comedown..paranoia,nausea,depression and an inability to think.
Rotten.

I felt exactly the same way, when i accidentally caught a few minutes of Xpose on TV3 last week :pac:

MikeC101

WillieCocker wrote: »

ALA the joke in USA that goes something like......
"God created whiskey to stop the irish ruling the world."

Not entirely, though there are similarities.

But it's more a case of thinking the natives are too stupid / uncivilised to take care of, or think for themselves, and need legislation to stop them doing themselves harm.

ScumLord

StopWhispering wrote: »

Neither of course. But we have had plenty of time to get used to the effects of a drink culture on society. We do not, apart from guessing, have any idea how a marijuana culture would have on society. So to be on the safe side, lets leave things as they are.

But the safe side isn't all that safe is it. Drug crime is here to stay as long as criminals control drugs. It's a bit like the smoking ban really, every country in Europe was convinced there'd be war, "it might work for them but never for us, it's in our culture" Cannabis has more or less the same effect on the general population in every place it's been allowed. Relaxed, chill during the day, early to bed.

StopWhispering

Well I really don't think that the criminals who control the illegal drug industry would be out of business if some drugs were legalised, even all. There would be something else they would find to fund their extravagant lifestyles. Legalising drugs to reduce crime is a fallacy really.

MikeC101

StopWhispering wrote: »

Legalising drugs to reduce crime is a fallacy really.

How so? Any evidence I'm aware of points to prohibition doing nothing more than increasing the income and influence of criminal gangs trafficking in it.

Prohibition in the US and alcohol - led to organised crime becoming more powerful and prevalent than ever before.
Decriminalisation of all drugs in Portugal - has led to a drop in rates of long term addiction to every drug, and deaths associated with drug use.
Switzerland's heroin policy.

They all seem to work - I'm not sure why similar programs wouldn't work in Ireland, and it generally seems to be only opposed on a "drugs are bad" platform.

I also can't agree with the idea that criminal gangs will "find something else" to support their lifestyles. That's a poor attitude to fighting crime. Maybe they will - this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to take sources of revenue away from them though, does it?

JC 2K3

DarkJager wrote: »

Weed is not a mind altering drug

Wait, what?

JC 2K3

StopWhispering wrote: »

Well I really don't think that the criminals who control the illegal drug industry would be out of business if some drugs were legalised, even all. There would be something else they would find to fund their extravagant lifestyles. Legalising drugs to reduce crime is a fallacy really.

What's the point in fighting the drug war then?

Prof.Badass

Terry wrote: »

As for legalising drugs, it doesn't make them any less addictive.

Legalising drugs could well make them less addictive. A major factor in determining addiction potential is the route of administration.

Basically the faster it hits you the more addictive it'll be. This is especially true for stimulants and opiates (why do you think crack is so much more addictive than regular coke?).

If you take them orally it takes some time to come up (a cool-down period if you will) and the come-up is gradual instead of all in one big rush. But if you take enough you can still get pretty ****ing high

.

The problem with illegal drugs is they're expensive, so people snort/smoke/inject them in order to get value for money.

If you legalised all drugs, but only allowed them in pill form you could significantly reduce their addictiveness. They'd still be addictive, but nowhere near as much and people would most likely know they're developing a problem long before they develop a full blown dependancy.

Don't get me wrong, there's other factors involved in addiction aswell, but every little helps

Pace2008 wrote: »

Don't be fooled by the packaging, there's nothing 'herbal' about it. It probably contains JWH-018 which is a a synthetic cannabinoid.

Calling a product 'natural' doesn't ensure its safety anyway, it's just a marketing ploy to appeal to hippies and stupid people. LSD is semi-synthetic and isn't physically harmful at all, while Datura grows out of the ground and will make you delirious for days and possibly kill you if eaten.

yes, but saying it contains "all natural herbs that have been used by indigenous tribes for centuries" does give an impression of some degree of safety.

Re. all the legal Coke substitutes; I'm pretty sure they just contain a high dose of caffeine.

Maybe, but morality aside if I was to create a legal coke substitute, I can think of many more effective chemicals to use.

As for those who are against legalisation in some form;

If most coke-heads won't touch heroin, despite the fact that they could easily get it if they wanted to, what makes you think average joe would?

Gear9992

A friend of my brothers took a party pill which he got on holidays the other day, and he's only 13!

I think it might of been BZP, but that's illegal here now isn't it?

his parents come home and they find him sitting on the couch, swaying back and forth, not able to control it.

WillieCocker

Gear9992 wrote: »

his parents come home and they find him sitting on the couch, swaying back and forth, not able to control it.

--Kaiser--

Those BZP yokes (no pun intended) have been linked to seizures (as in grand mal, chronic tonic etc..) in New Zealand and Australia where they are extremely popular (regular pills being quite rare and expensive). Not be messed with tbh

DarkJager

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Wait, what?

Its not a mind altering drug.

LSD is a mind altering drug. You cannot in any shape or form compare weed to that.

Daroxtar

I bought a pre rolled SmokeXXX joint today and it was the tongest spliff i have had in years.

zonEEE

Tribe and smoke xxx are fairly good tbh, smoke xxx gets you really monged out of it. I tried this legal coke stuff at oxegen called charge and it was very good deffo well worth the money, a few of my friends who would do coke a lot said it was nearly as good as the real stuff. All the other legal coke products are meant to be ****e though.

TedB

I have to say, that after taking a particular heavy dose last night by myself, there is simply no argument that this stuff is mind altering. What I had last night amounted to a paranoid episode - I couldn't stop thinking when I was trying to sleep and my heart was pounding like crazy. I'm never taking this **** again. Possibly never taking any other **** again either.

genericguy

Daroxtar wrote: »

I bought a pre rolled SmokeXXX joint today and it was the tongest spliff i have had in years.

AnonoBoy

DarkJager wrote: »

Its not a mind altering drug.
LSD is a mind altering drug.

Weed is a mind altering drug. It's not a hallucinogen but it does alter how your mind works, not in a sixtie's 'woah man mind altering' kinda way but it does have a physiological effect on the brain doesn't it?

Mind you I'm not saying the two should ever be compared.

JC 2K3

DarkJager wrote: »

Its not a mind altering drug.

LSD is a mind altering drug. You cannot in any shape or form compare weed to that.

Of course you can't (well, a lot of weed to a very mild LSD trip, maybe). But I would consider "mind altering" to be a casual term for "psychoactive" not "psychedelic".

I would consider alcohol to be a mind altering drug, for example.

ScumLord

strongr wrote: »

Tribe and smoke xxx are fairly good tbh, smoke xxx gets you really monged out of it. I tried this legal coke stuff at oxegen called charge and it was very good deffo well worth the money, a few of my friends who would do coke a lot said it was nearly as good as the real stuff.

That just goes to show how bad the coke is in this country. That charge stuff is nothing like proper coke. Your friends have probably been buying charge with Novocaine for the last few years.

JC 2K3

What is Charge? Mephedrone?

Yakult

The smoke from the head shop is pretty useless imo.

The only time I get anything from it is after the first joint of it. After that I will get hardly anything and it stays like that even after I smoke 3-4 in a row. I then mixed two of them together to see could I get any more and nothing.

Doesnt compare to the real stuff and terrible terrible taste.

As for alot of the pills, crap. I would rather do cocaine than waste my money there.

Saying that tho, I think its one step forward that drug shops are opening in alot of towns. Still waiting for the day weed is legal

ScumLord

JC 2K3 wrote: »

What is Charge? Mephedrone?

I'd say it's the same stuff that's in the rest of the pills, it's just not in a capsule.

JC 2K3

But "the rest of the pills" contain a wide and varying variety of substances....