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Kieran Lewis

thomond2006

Does anyone know where Lewis has ended up?

He was released by Munster last season.

Just wondering. :pac:

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phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Does anyone know where Lewis has ended up?

He was released by Munster last season.

Just wondering. :pac:

I think he signed for a Leinster club - Div 2??

Edited to add - he is also a fully trained physio so may be making that his future instead of pro rugby.

Crash

Lansdowne.

thomond2006

Crash wrote: »

Lansdowne.

God, wasn't he once known at the "3rd best centre in Ireland" behind BOD and D'Arcy?

I thought a low GP club (Leeds, Worcester) might sign him up.

LeeroyJones

Yeah, unfortunate for a player of his talent to play second fiddle, should have left Leinster earlier perhaps

Tim Robbins

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Yeah, unfortunate for a player of his talent to play second fiddle, should have left Leinster earlier perhaps

Shafted by Kidney beans.
Got more game time in Leinster than he did in Munster. He should have gone to Ulster.

buck65

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Shafted by Kidney beans.
Got more game time in Leinster than he did in Munster. He should have gone to Ulster.

Not good enough for Munster tbh, hard to see where he would fit in with Dowling, Howlett, Earls and Murphy all capable of playing wing and with de Villiers to come too, places will be hard fought in the backs.
Did ok in a few cameos this year, surprised Connacht or Ulster didn't have a look.

Tim Robbins

buck65 wrote: »

Not good enough for Munster tbh, hard to see where he would fit in with Dowling, Howlett, Earls and Murphy all capable of playing wing and with de Villiers to come too, places will be hard fought in the backs.
Did ok in a few cameos this year, surprised Connacht or Ulster didn't have a look.

He was primarily a center. How can you say he's not good enough when you don't know what he's favoured position is?

Where he was shafted was going to Munster to get more game time than he was getting at Leinster and he ended up getting less. This was because Kidney when off Tipoki and Howlett. It would have been better if Munster said to him, listen we're going to bring in another elite center and a world class winger of so you'd have a better chance of getting more game time at Ulster or with an English club.

I can only feel sorry for the fella.

buck65

Tim , I am a bit confused, you say Kidney shafted him by bringing in Tipoki and Howlett? but surely Mc Gahan shafted him by getting rid of him. Didn't Leinster shaft him in the first place? All this shafting!.

Munster needed quality backs as this was always their downfall in Europe, to say that by bringing in 2 top class players put paid to Lewis' chances is absurd. Lewis wasn't deemed good enough for Leinster or Munster, so he was let go- this is professional sport, harsh at times.

I don't know did he ever get a game for Munster as a centre, I never saw him play there, saw him on the wing and though decent he is not good enough for a Munster starting place.

If Leinster thought he was a top centre would they have released him to Munster?

Tim Robbins

buck65 wrote: »

Tim , I am a bit confused, you say Kidney shafted him by bringing in Tipoki and Howlett? but surely Mc Gahan shafted him by getting rid of him. Didn't Leinster shaft him in the first place? All this shafting!.

Munster needed quality backs as this was always their downfall in Europe, to say that by bringing in 2 top class players put paid to Lewis' chances is absurd. Lewis wasn't deemed good enough for Leinster or Munster, so he was let go- this is professional sport, harsh at times.

The provinces are funded by the IRFU. This is what pays O'Connell, O'Gara, O'Driscoll etc.

In return for the funding the IRFU give them, the provinces should be helping the development of Irish players not hindering it. Otherwise why should the IRFU fund the provinces? It's nonsense to think the IRFU should fund something that makes the national team worse.

Had Munster not have brought in Howlett and Tipoki, Lewis would have walked into that team, developed and we should have had another center who could play for Ireland that was good when D'arcy / Drico was injured.

However, the provincial system failed. The third best center in Ireland couldn't get any game time. That's ridiculous. Even conor O'Shea who is no fool when it comes to the development of players remarked on the Kieran Lewis situation and said he was international standard.

The Lewis situation would be the equivalent of Trevor Hogan being the 3rd best lock and not getting any game time, despite moving provence. Could you imagine how ridiculous that would be?

Basically if the IRFU are funding the provences, then Ireland comes first not the other way around. Otherwise the IRFU should scrap funding the province and let it compete as an independent franchise.

If Leinster thought he was a top centre would they have released him to Munster?

Because he was spending the best years of his career behind Drico and Darce. And in his 2 / 3 position behind Shaggy / Hickie.

danthefan

I always thought he did pretty well for Leinster, was sad to see him leave. Hasn't worked out at Munster, don't think he was shafted by anyone.

Tim - you're being ridiculous. There's no way you can say with any degree of certainty that Lewis would have made an international centre. And what is better for Irish rugby, Lewis getting his game regularly or the provinces competing in the HEC? We might as well put a blanket ban on foreigners if that's the right logic.

buck65

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The provinces are funded by the IRFU. This is what pays O'Connell, O'Gara, O'Driscoll etc.

In return for the funding the IRFU give them, the provinces should be helping the development of Irish players not hindering it. Otherwise why should the IRFU fund the provinces? It's nonsense to think the IRFU should fund something that makes the national team worse.

Had Munster not have brought in Howlett and Tipoki, Lewis would have walked into that team, developed and we should have had another center who could play for Ireland that was good when D'arcy / Drico was injured.

However, the provincial system failed. The third best center in Ireland couldn't get any game time. That's ridiculous. Even conor O'Shea who is no fool when it comes to the development of players remarked on the Kieran Lewis situation and said he was international standard.

The Lewis situation would be the equivalent of Trevor Hogan being the 3rd best lock and not getting any game time, despite moving provence. Could you imagine how ridiculous that would be?

Basically if the IRFU are funding the provences, then Ireland comes first not the other way around. Otherwise the IRFU should scrap funding the province and let it compete as an independent franchise.

Because he was spending the best years of his career behind Drico and Darce. And in his 2 / 3 position behind Shaggy / Hickie.

Ah Jeez Tim , would Munster have won 2 heineken cups with Lewis in the centre? This talk about developing Irish players is all well and good but we need to win trophies too. Munster usually have 12/13 Irish players on the field in the big games as do Leinster so it's not like we aren't developing players.
Also he was battling against Earls, Dowling and Murphy in Munster - all Irish players so maybe get off your high horse about foreign players, it's not true.
And by the way do you think Munster want the third best centre in Ireland? when we can have 2 of the top centres in the world? i.e Mafi and Tipoki in 2008.

Tim Robbins

buck65 wrote: »

And by the way do you think Munster want the third best centre in Ireland? when we can have 2 of the top centres in the world? i.e Mafi and Tipoki in 2008.

Well I see no reason why the IRFU should fund a province if that's the thinking. You can't have it both ways.

danthefan

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well I see no reason why the IRFU should fund a province if that's the thinking. You can't have it both ways.

I enjoy a good moan about Munster as much as the next man but that is just a daft thing to say. As I said before, going on your logic, why not just stop all foreigners playing in Ireland?

And they most certainly can have it both ways. They're within the IRFU rules with their non-Irish qualified players.

Tim Robbins

danthefan wrote: »

I enjoy a good moan about Munster as much as the next man but that is just a daft thing to say. As I said before, going on your logic, why not just stop all foreigners playing in Ireland?

My logic is clear. If a player is close to international standard, then he should be getting game time at one of the IRFU funded provinces, especially if we are short in that position.

So, for example, imagine next season Reddan (who is probably our 2nd or 3rd best SH) got no game time because Leinster went out and got Fourie du Preez. That would be ridiculous. Then O'Leary and Stringer or both injured or not on form - what do we do? Loose a test match and say ah well the provinces have to win the HC.

However, if a province gets a player that is not to the detriment of the national team e.g. Leinster getting Whitaker or Munster getting Warwick, then I don't see as much of a problem with that. Neither of those players prevented the development of any Irish player to any great degree.

danthefan

Lewis was near international standard? Since when? In the IRFU rules how would 'international standard' be defined? Would every single transfer have to be looked at, guess what may or may not happen as a result, and then decide whether it'll go ahead?

As for Stringer/TOL, why was one of them not moved to Leinster so both our SHs last season got gametime? Why is Donncha Ryan still at Munster?

LeeroyJones

You can't say whether he is/was international class as we rarely saw him get a decent run at either Leinster or Munster, what we did see was promising - promising enough that could have suggested international potential but the point is he never got an opportunity to fulfil his potential and develop. He wasn't shafted at Leinster, just unfortunate to be in the same age bracket as Darcy and BOD! I reckon had he gone over to the Premiership to a club like London Irish he would have had a few caps under his belt and certainly would not be signing for Lansdowne this year!!!!

danthefan

Where would these caps have come from? Who is he better than that's played for Ireland in the last few years?

Otacon

Was Elsom hindering O'Brien's development? If I asked you last season to get rid of Elsom so O'Brien would get more gametime, would you do it?

Of course not. Elsom played a huge part in Leinster's HC win last season. Same goes for Tipoki and Lewis.

Honestly, I understand what you are saying, but what you want would be (a)unrealistic and (b)a detriment to the provinces who actually learn a lot from having international talent. How much have Dowling and Earls improved from having Dougie helping them?

LeeroyJones

danthefan wrote: »

Where would these caps have come from? Who is he better than that's played for Ireland in the last few years?

I said he may have had a few caps IF he was given the opportunity to fulfil his potential

Perhaps not in the EOS reign he would have won a few caps but after D'arcy and BOD our options were limited in terms of depth, not the case now with Earls, Cave and co coming through but 5 or 6 years ago we could have done with another option other than throw Shaggy in at 12 and D'arcy/BOD if one of them were injured!

buck65

Otacon wrote: »

Was Elsom hindering O'Brien's development? If I asked you last season to get rid of Elsom so O'Brien would get more gametime, would you do it?

Of course not. Elsom played a huge part in Leinster's HC win last season. Same goes for Tipoki and Lewis.

Honestly, I understand what you are saying, but what you want would be (a)unrealistic and (b)a detriment to the provinces who actually learn a lot from having international talent. How much have Dowling and Earls improved from having Dougie helping them?

You beat me to it on the Elsom point. I think what Earls and O Brien would have learned from these guys would be massive. Plus I really enjoyed getting to see Elsom play in Thomond last April and in Croker too. I still get a buzz from looking at Howlett play 20 metres from my seat in the East stand. Some of the greatest players in the world are playing their rugby in Ireland in th epast few years and looking forward to seeing the likes of de Vill and these guys coming.

The provinces would be lesser without the likes of Warwick, Contepomi, Elsom, Howlet, Mafi ,Tipoki, Halstead, Harrison, Danelli, Nacewa.

Tim Robbins

danthefan wrote: »

Lewis was near international standard? Since when? In the IRFU rules how would 'international standard' be defined? Would every single transfer have to be looked at, guess what may or may not happen as a result, and then decide whether it'll go ahead?

He was regarded by many as Irish 3 best center. I was debating on that basis.

As for Stringer/TOL, why was one of them not moved to Leinster so both our SHs last season got gametime? Why is Donncha Ryan still at Munster?

SH is a specialist position. It's understand a province will want two scrum halfs. And Strings was an establised international player who play and benched in the VI nations.

Otacon wrote:

Was Elsom hindering O'Brien's development? If I asked you last season to get rid of Elsom so O'Brien would get more gametime, would you do it?

No, Keogh. The question then is was that much of a loss to Ireland, no because we have plenty of flankers better than Keogh. Quinlan, Leamy, Wallace (who could play 6) etc. Keogh also got plenty of gametime his first year at Leinster so he got his chance at Leinster. Lewis got nothing at Munster.

Honestly, I understand what you are saying, but what you want would be (a)unrealistic and (b)a detriment to the provinces who actually learn a lot from having international talent. How much have Dowling and Earls improved from having Dougie helping them?

I have a rule of thumb of when an import makes sense. It can't just be arbitary or to the detriment of the national team.

justsomebloke

Ah come on, this is a load of Bull. Just because an Irish player "MAY" become an international standard player is no reason to let them start above better foreign players.

You say that the IRFU shouldn't be funding Irish provinces that are overlooking potential talent but they are doing this so that they can be as successful as possible on the field. The continued success of Irish teams in both the magners League and HEC has brought a lot more money into Irish rugby as more and more fans have become interested in Rugby and this simply wouldn't have happened if fringe players where being forced into setups where there was already world class options be it foreign options. So to this end there actually wouldn't be as much money for the IRFU to give to the provinces if it wasn't for the current set up.

Also if top class players weren't getting their game here due to having to make way for Irish players they wouldn't come here to play and in my opinion that would be a disaster for Irish Rugby as these are the world class players who play week in week out helping bring along alot of irish players especially the ones that get game in the magners league during the autumn international and six nations time period when the Irish players aren't playing for their provinces and for me this is a lot more beneficial for fringe Ireland players to take this time to play with world class players.

I am sorry for Lewis but it may seem that he just wasn't good enough and was never going to live up to his potential

buck65

Maybe some club will swoop in for him during the season, surely he would be a steal for a lower premiership team or even a ML team.
I reckon the recession was a big factor too in Munster's decision, they certainly cleared out the squad with very little additions apart from JDV (?) and one or 2 promotions from within.

madds

IIRC a buddy of mine who was part of the playing setup with Leinster for ~4 years was so impressed with Lewis as a player he laid a bet that he would get capped at Int level within 12 months. Think the bet was laid in '05/'06. Obviously the bet was lost but it just shows the esteem in which certain players held him in.

bleg

Lewis was poor anytime he played for munster. Good enough for cover for a bench spot.

budhabob

bleg wrote: »

Lewis was poor anytime he played for munster. Good enough for cover for a bench spot.

This was my opinion of him also. Outta curiousity, where have other people seen his supposed skill to be of international standard?

buck65

bleg wrote: »

Lewis was poor anytime he played for munster. Good enough for cover for a bench spot.

He did ok in one or 2 games this year, scored a nice try in one too, but very ordinary. Tim's point is that he is a centre but he never got a chance there for Munster.
I don't remember him setting the world on fire in Leinster either. I know he was the 3RD BEST CENTRE but with O Driscoll's injuries and both his and D'arcy's international duties surely Lewis would have registered more than he did if he was that good?!

Tim Robbins

madds wrote: »

IIRC a buddy of mine who was part of the playing setup with Leinster for ~4 years was so impressed with Lewis as a player he laid a bet that he would get capped at Int level within 12 months. Think the bet was laid in '05/'06. Obviously the bet was lost but it just shows the esteem in which certain players held him in.

Conor O'Shea highly rated him as well and made the point he had to leave Leinster because of Drico / D'Arcy.

Tim Robbins

Joe the Santa wrote: »

I am sorry for Lewis but it may seem that he just wasn't good enough and was never going to live up to his potential

He never got a chance to fulfill his potential. Ireland for a number of years had a situation where the third best center couldn't get a game.

Don't you see the problem?

Look the line has to be drawn somewhere. You can't have the provinces becoming Chelsea style clubs or the sport will just be ruined.

All these people who are saying what happened to Lewis was fair don't bother saying where the line is drawn. I've given a rule of thumb, I've said where the line is drawn, can any of you?

All you are saying is that we have to be able to win the HC, but that doesn't say where will you stop in pursuit of that goal? If you have to get 12 imports into your first 15 is that what you'll do? When will you stop?

bleg

The line is: if a player is good enough to get a game then he should get a game. Lewis wasn't. He didn't. End of story.

Big deal if Conor O Shea rated him highly. Just because it is said a player has potential or has a reputation doesn't mean the player is actually any good. That has to be proven. Lewis never laid down a marker.

In contrast to him look at Niall Ronan, came from Leinster to Munster, made a huge impact at the start of the season, off the bench and during the international windows. He then became a permanent fixture in the Munster squad.