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Laws Question? Ask here!

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

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wexican

Hi lads, here's a question for ye.

If the ball is moved forward off a player (except from the foot or head) the ball is fouled - knock on. What if a player is being tackled, and moves the ball intentionally forward off his own head (by pushing the ball against his head and making a headbutt type motion) in order to release the ball fowards to his supporting team mates. Is this legal?

I have scoured the laws and can't see anything that would outlaw such a move.

I will concede that doing this in highly uncontrollable, it's just the result of a late night conversation over a pint or 3

Tim Robbins

wexican wrote: »

Hi lads, here's a question for ye.

If the ball is moved forward off a player (except from the foot or head) the ball is fouled - knock on. What if a player is being tackled, and moves the ball intentionally forward off his own head (by pushing the ball against his head and making a headbutt type motion) in order to release the ball fowards to his supporting team mates. Is this legal?

I have scoured the laws and can't see anything that would outlaw such a move.

I will concede that doing this in highly uncontrollable, it's just the result of a late night conversation over a pint or 3

If he throws it's back and then heads it forward, I can't see anything wrong with it.

If he uses he's head to thrust it forward from his hands, I can because you could argue it's coming from his hands + heads.

Edit - just re-read, Downtime is correct about the offside.

"Law 12

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

Downtime

In this situation, if I read what you are saying correctly - i.e player is tackled and "head butts" the ball to a team mate in front of him - the team mate is off side as after a tackle all players must come from behind the ball.

wexican

Thanks for the responses guys.

Downtime wrote: »

In this situation, if I read what you are saying correctly - i.e player is tackled and "head butts" the ball to a team mate in front of him - the team mate is off side as after a tackle all players must come from behind the ball.

Well i was assuming he was the furthest player forward on his side, hence everyne onside, but he was unable to pass backwards!

And tim, yes the suggestion is that he holds the ball in his hands and head butts it forward rather than throwing it backwards in order to head it forwards.

Stealdo

I'm 95% sure I saw this happen in a club game (televised on RTE news so must have been top level) 10+ years ago, and was considered fine by the referee.
Scrum half (or player in that position) headbutted from his hands over a ruck/scrum for another player to run onto to score. (Don't remember whether there was a try or not but no knock on/pen)

daveharnett

A possibly more realistic scenario is a fullback or winger heading an incoming kick into touch when he doesn't have time to catch and kick.

Here's the question: if he was inside his 22, and headed it forward directly into touch, where would the lineout be held?

Downtime

daveharnett wrote: »

A possibly more realistic scenario is a fullback or winger heading an incoming kick into touch when he doesn't have time to catch and kick.

Here's the question: if he was inside his 22, and headed it forward directly into touch, where would the lineout be held?

The lineout would be where it crossed the touch line.

gar_29

why was it a 22 when moyne didn't ground the ball today??

surely it's a scrum 5?

Tim Robbins

gar_29 wrote: »

why was it a 22 when moyne didn't ground the ball today??

surely it's a scrum 5?

If the attacking team play the ball into the goal area but it ends up touch and goal it's a 22.

If the defending team play the ball into the goal area and it ends up touch and goal it's a scrum 5.

By touch and goal, I mean Moyne went into touch or the ball did in the goal area.

Make sense?

gar_29

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If the attacking team play the ball into the goal area but it ends up touch and goal it's a 22.

If the defending team play the ball into the goal area and it ends up touch and goal it's a scrum 5.

By touch and goal, I mean Moyne went into touch or the ball did in the goal area.

Make sense?

so it's about who brings it into the goal area, and not what happens once it's in there?

Tim Robbins

gar_29 wrote: »

so it's about who brings it into the goal area, and not what happens once it's in there?

Exactly.

JimmyO

wrote:

Originally Posted by amacachi
So how are ankle-taps legal when there's no wrapping?

Downtime wrote: »

An ankle tap is not a tackle

The reason for the distinction is that if a player goes to ground as the result of a ankle tap he can get back to his feet and carry on playing as he was not held in the tackle.

If you are held in the tackle you must release the ball.

Law 15 Tackle: Ball carrier Brought to the Ground

Tackle
DEFINITION
A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents
and is brought to ground.
A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has
not taken place.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to
ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground
are not tacklers.

15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That
player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

Paddy Irishman

A couple of matters which I would like your opinion/further clarification on please.

Q1. The Lineout: Law 19.8 (j). Why is the opposing team to the thrower obliged by law to have a player standing between the touchline and the 5 metre line.

Q2. The attacking team take the ball into the in-goal area. The defending team take possession and pass it several times within the in-goal area before touching it down. Am I correct in thinking it's still a 22m dropout?

Q3. With reference to Ugo Monyes attempt to score a try in the Lions 1st test, Jean de Villiers goes to ground and strips the ball from Monye. Regardless of whether Monye was in touch-in-goal or not, if this had happened further in field nearer the goalposts would a penalty try have been awarded as de Villiers is off his feet when playing the ball thus preventing a certain try?

Q4. The Ruck- when is the ball considered out and available to anyone. My view would be when it goes beyond the last foot of the hindmost player in the ruck or the scrum half pulls the ball out. Also, if rucking is defined as using feet to win the ball, why are scrum halfs often seen digging into a ruck to get the ball out without penalty?

Thanks!

Downtime

Q1. I would presume that the law makers decided that the defending team would have an advantage of more players if they did not have to place this player here.

Q2.Yes as the attacking team carried it over

Q3. Yes if it can be recognized that the player was off his feet and pulled the ball from the attacking players hands. Only players on their feet may grab the ball. If both players go to ground at the same time it would be difficult to validate that one pulled the ball from the other

Q4. When the ball leaves the ruck or it is on or over the ball line it is over, so you are correct. Rucking the ball must be in a backward direction so if the shoot their foot into the middle of a ruck it could be considered unnecessary use of the foot.

castie

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If the attacking team play the ball into the goal area but it ends up touch and goal it's a 22.

If the defending team play the ball into the goal area and it ends up touch and goal it's a scrum 5.

By touch and goal, I mean Moyne went into touch or the ball did in the goal area.

Make sense?

Dont agree here as if its held up its a scrum 5 attacking team even though the attacking team played it into the goal area.

My view of this was either it was held up or the SA player played the ball on the floor by ripping it away from him.

So Im puzzled at the 22 call.

Stealdo

castie wrote: »

Dont agree here as if its held up its a scrum 5 attacking team even though the attacking team played it into the goal area.

My view of this was either it was held up or the SA player played the ball on the floor by ripping it away from him.

So Im puzzled at the 22 call.

He's talking purely about touch in goal....held up doesn't apply.

There's no way the Monye incident could be considered 'held up' the ball was moving and playable the entire time until it went touch in goal therefore (excepting any foul play) it's a 22. Correct call.

The argument for a penalty is an interesting one though, as the ball was clearly ripped by a player who was off his feet. Some of the aficionados can say more on this but there are definitely circumstances where a player in goal is allowed to play the ball while off his feet in a way that you wouldn't be allowed to in the field of play. Tim - is that just when the ball is loose?

As a general comment - this thread is about matters of the laws. Not about matters of trying to sort out what happened. We should try and keep the explanations to if a happens ruling is x, if b happens ruling is y.

Tim Robbins

castie wrote: »

Dont agree here as if its held up its a scrum 5 attacking team even though the attacking team played it into the goal area.

That's correct. Held up is always a scrum 5. I ommitted that from origina answer.

My view of this was either it was held up or the SA player played the ball on the floor by ripping it away from him.

So Im puzzled at the 22 call.

Coz the ref thought that the ball carrier brough it in and went into touch and goal.

castie

So as a rule Question.

Can a player do a similar thing by ripping the ball away while on the ground in the goal area or is that illegal?

Spore

Dunno if this has been asked before but... can you kick a drop goal from the restart? I know it has to go ten but if it goes sailing over the upright does it count? or does it have to drop before the twenty-two or something...

castie

Think It has to drop within the field of play. Im assuming that would exclude the try zone.

mikedragon32

Spore wrote: »

Dunno if this has been asked before but... can you kick a drop goal from the restart? I know it has to go ten but if it goes sailing over the upright does it count? or does it have to drop before the twenty-two or something...

You can't kick a drop goal from the restart. If the ball goes into the in-goal area the receiving team has the option to continue play or ground the ball. If they ground it, they have the option to scrum back at the halfway. Same if it goes dead from the in-goal area.

thomond2006

If a kick off doesn't go 10 metres, and then bounces again past the 10 metre line, can the team that kicked off gather the ball and play on?

Crash

You're perfectly in your rights to play on for a restart to you that doesn't go 10, iirc.

mikedragon32

Thomond2006 wrote:

If a kick off doesn't go 10 metres, and then bounces again past the 10 metre line, can the team that kicked off gather the ball and play on?

No would be the answer, unless the ball has come into contact with a player from the recieving team first.

Crash

Oops missed the "team that kicked off" bit.

thomond2006

Cheers lads.

:):)

danthefan

Crash wrote: »

You're perfectly in your rights to play on for a restart to you that doesn't go 10, iirc.

The receiving team can play the ball and it's play on, if they decide not to or the kicking team plays the ball inside the 10 it's a scrum back. I think.

Stev_o

I think the answer is yes actually, iv seen in both 7's and League where the team kicking off has simple grubbered the ball passed the 10 with a few bounces and regathered by the team kicking off.

Crash

You're completely right - I missed Thomonds comment on the kicking team so just assumed it concerned the receivers.

thomond2006

Crash wrote: »

You're completely right - I missed Thomonds comment on the kicking team so just assumed it concerned the receivers.

You're alright mate.