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Irish referendum on right to citizenship

samsham

We had a referendum a few years ago on the rights of people with Irish born kids to live in Ireland. Shamefully we vote as our Government wanted. We ended the right of people with Irish Born kids to live in Ireland. My wife is Asian I am Irish, My child is Irish. Recently I had a health scare and this vote came back to haunt me. Obviously I voted for the rights of parents to stay in Ireland. But because the majority in Ireland voted with the Government, this means if I died my wife and kid can legally be kicked out of Ireland. I was married in 2007 so my wife is not a citizen yet. But were my health to fade and I died, my wife and child who obviously would stay with its mother can be kicked out of Ireland. I just wondered if Irish people knew this when voting. Because to me this referendum was nothing but pure racism. The government acknowledges in order to pay for our growing senior citizens pension we need population growth. So would someone who voted for this please explain what the hell they were thinking of?

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samsham

samsham wrote: »

I know exactly what your reporting I lived next to a sea side resort in Tramore that housed these Asylum seekers. They were granted residency
because of a time delay and backlog in dealing with claims. The claimed asylum here, and under UN agreements we have signed up to our Government accepted them. The debate on citizenship came later. Now do you have the figures for people giving citizenship in Ireland based on there child being born here, No you don't because there are none. Asilum seekers will always arive here. that's a different issue.

I stand corrected, just found this, I appoligise.

Ireland granted residency to about 17,000 parents of Irish born Children mostly women and then decided that these category of Irish Citizen Children do not have any entitlement to family unification and so we have a situation where the fathers of these children are being turned away. What we risk creating for our future generation is what I dread because this policy if not reversed will only polarise the community and we will have the "us" and "them" divide.

but I still think border control is a better option

the_syco

samsham wrote: »

your logic would imply none of us would have any rights then, You were born here why should you have a right to a passport. Our first president should have been kicked out too. I am talking about the spouse of an Irish person, like your wife. You dont think she should have rights.

It used to more automatic, but due to sham marraiges, it became less automatic.

If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

Does this mean that if one was to hold a discussion on immergration, they, and all those who attend, are xenophobic by definition?

samsham

the_syco wrote: »

It used to more automatic, but due to sham marraiges, it became less automatic.

Does this mean that if one was to hold a discussion on immergration, they, and all those who attend, are xenophobic by definition?

hang on now sham marraiges has never been reported a problem in Ireland.
America yes, but never heard of girls rushing to Ireland to marry us, maybe wishful thinking there.

af_thefragile

PaulieD wrote: »

Already in place. The OP is a bit over the top. He demands his wife given citizenship now. She will get it, but it takes time. Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

Ireland does take longer than other countries to give citizenship... But i think OP's case, if it is as he mentioned it, looks genuine and his wife should be given citizenship pretty soon... She is after all married to an Irish guy and has an Irish child...

PaulieD

the_syco wrote: »

It used to more automatic, but due to sham marraiges, it became less automatic.

Does this mean that if one was to hold a discussion on immergration, they, and all those who attend, are xenophobic by definition?

Well said. We need to have an open and frank discussion on immigration without labelling people racists/xenophobes or pinko lefties/PC brigade.

The fact is in the last few years we have had mass immigration with no real government policy. We need a more transparent system to put the myths and rumours to bed. We also need an immigration policy that reflects our current economic situation.

I welcome the new changes to Non EU citizens, but believe those already here should be exempt.

I also believe all those given leave to remain unless they become an economic burden and never worked a day here should be repatriated.

We also seriously have to look at eastern european immigration to Ireland. Work permits should be put in place. Those with existing PPS numbers should again be exempt.

Asylum is a shambles. Needs serious reform, the processing times are a joke.

Just throwing some ideas out there.:)

samsham

you know whats strikes me as crazy here is, we offer constitutional protection to the rights of unborn children here and we take away the rights of those children alive here. Does that not seem crazy. Your arguements about there parents are one thing. but to interfere with the right of a child to there parents. Come on get real.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

hang on now sham marraiges has never been reported a problem in Ireland.
America yes, but never heard of girls rushing to Ireland to marry us, maybe wishful thinking there.

Next time do your homework before starting a thread.;)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1113/1226408582702.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0925/marriage.html

The department has given figures to its European counterparts that show 4,600 non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

Some 30% of the residency applicants were either failed asylum seekers or students who had outstayed their visas.

Not an issue you say? I personally know of two.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

you know whats strikes me as crazy here is, we offer constitutional protection to the rights of unborn children here and we take away the rights of those children alive here. Does that not seem crazy. Your arguements about there parents are one thing. but to interfere with the right of a child to there parents. Come on get real.

I feel for you, I really do. You are genuine and are in limbo because of others dishonesty. Speak with your local TD or MEP. It obviously irks you, so it may prove worthwhile.

It was a loophole and was being exploited, it had to be closed. Its unfortunate that genuine people like you are being hurt by it.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

Next time do your homework before starting a thread.;)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1113/1226408582702.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0925/marriage.html

The department has given figures to its European counterparts that show 4,600 non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

Some 30% of the residency applicants were either failed asylum seekers or students who had outstayed their visas.

Not an issue you say? I personally know of two.

Thats Africans or Eastern europeans marrying french guys to get acess to Europe, not irish people. We cant change the laws in france or elsewhere.

non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

samsham

PaulieD wrote: »

Next time do your homework before starting a thread.;)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1113/1226408582702.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0925/marriage.html

The department has given figures to its European counterparts that show 4,600 non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

Some 30% of the residency applicants were either failed asylum seekers or students who had outstayed their visas.

Not an issue you say? I personally know of two.

how many Irish are doing the exact same thing in America and our government is looking for an amnesty for them

truebluedub

Since the referendum itself was based on a provable lie which played on peoples fear of foreigners then the referendum was passed due to xenophobia.

PaulieD

samsham wrote: »

how many Irish are doing the exact same thing in America and our government is looking for an amnesty for them

I dont know. Start a thread on it. If there are it does not make it right and give non nationals a carte blance to do the same here. If an Irish citizen is illegal in America then he/she should be deported.

How many bribes do the gardai have to provide to Nigerians customs to convince them to take back their citizens during deportation from Ireland?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6396134.ece

the_syco

[url= wrote:

citizensinformation.ie[/url]"]The conditions relating to residence are more favourable than those for people who are not married to Irish citizens but there is no longer an absolute entitlement to citizenship through marriage

How long through the Form 8 process are you? Have you even started yet?

johnathan woss

oscarBravo wrote: »

If people are concerned about having foreigners in the country, that pretty much makes them xenophobic by definition.

Being xenophobic is pretty much a natural reaction then, isn't it ?

oscarBravo

johnathan woss wrote: »

Being xenophobic is pretty much a natural reaction then, isn't it ?

Is it? Foreigners don't bother me; I live with one.

Guess that makes me some sort of weirdo.

af_thefragile

johnathan woss wrote: »

Being xenophobic is pretty much a natural reaction then, isn't it ?

Not until we hear people to start yelling about how "they're taking away our jobs, women and money and destroying our society"...

Societies previously always invited visitors. Only when they start to become a threat, societies become hostile.
The threat could be real or something imaginary that is then blown out of proportion or a consequence of societies own problems...

markopantelic

yeah 10,000 years ago, you'd think humanity would have moved on.

johnathan woss

af_thefragile wrote: »

Societies previously always invited visitors.

I don't mean to be offensive but what are you talking about ?

No society, anywhere, ever, has come close to welcoming visitors on the scale that Western Europe has in the last 50 years.

af_thefragile

johnathan woss wrote: »

I don't mean to be offensive but what are you talking about ?

No society, anywhere, ever, has come close to welcoming visitors on the scale that Western Europe has in the last 50 years.

You need to dwell into history a bit more...
Colonialism? eh?

johnathan woss

Ehh colonialism was a slightly different phenomenon, no ?

af_thefragile

johnathan woss wrote: »

Ehh colonialism was a slightly different phenomenon, no ?

The only difference was the intention of the visitors...

johnathan woss

Can you explain how the domination of weak countries by powerful ones through a small number of non-natives and the complicity of native elites is the same thing as mass emigration from poor countries to rich countries ?

johnnyskeleton

PaulieD wrote: »

The department has given figures to its European counterparts that show 4,600 non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

Or they may have married for the reasons other people get married, love, sex, children etc.

PaulieD wrote: »

Some 30% of the residency applicants were either failed asylum seekers or students who had outstayed their visas.

Which would suggest that the other 70% aren't; in other words of all the marriages between EU and non-EU nationals, 30% probably aren't genuine while 70% probably are? Or do we come from the presumption that all such marriages are a sham (as our Department of Justice clearly does). Such presumptions, as opposed to genuinely assessing such cases from a neutral basis, is why there are so many immigration judicial reviews in Ireland.

PaulieD

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Or they may have married for the reasons other people get married, love, sex, children etc.

Which would suggest that the other 70% aren't; in other words of all the marriages between EU and non-EU nationals, 30% probably aren't genuine while 70% probably are? Or do we come from the presumption that all such marriages are a sham (as our Department of Justice clearly does). Such presumptions, as opposed to genuinely assessing such cases from a neutral basis, is why there are so many immigration judicial reviews in Ireland.

Still an extraordinarily high number you would have to agree. Both parties involved should be deported from Ireland. Its scams like this that hurt genuine loving couples.

More on this here.http://www.independent.ie/national-news/836410000-bogus-marriage-offer-for-latvian-girls-1372358.html

It is an issue that cannot be ignored. Another loophole, ripe for exploitation.

johnnyskeleton

PaulieD wrote: »

Still an extraordinarily high number you would have to agree. Both parties involved should be deported from Ireland. Its scams like this that hurt genuine loving couples.

More on this here.http://www.independent.ie/national-news/836410000-bogus-marriage-offer-for-latvian-girls-1372358.html

It is an issue that cannot be ignored. Another loophole, ripe for exploitation.

It seems to me that if the majority of these cases are genuine then we certainly should not adopt a sledgehammer approach and should instead judge these things individually. But try tell that to the Dept of Justice.

PaulieD

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It seems to me that if the majority of these cases are genuine then we certainly should not adopt a sledgehammer approach and should instead judge these things individually. But try tell that to the Dept of Justice.

I disagree, recent proposals by the government that the married couple needed to reside in another EU country for three years before entering Ireland was very welcome. Ireland is seen as a soft touch. We need to send a message, scammers not welcome.

Charity starts at home.

KINGVictor

PaulieD wrote: »

Next time do your homework before starting a thread.;)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1113/1226408582702.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0925/marriage.html

The department has given figures to its European counterparts that show 4,600 non-EU nationals may have married non-Irish EU citizens in order to exploit a loophole in an EU directive on the free movement of people.

Some 30% of the residency applicants were either failed asylum seekers or students who had outstayed their visas.

Not an issue you say? I personally know of two.

Another baseless post...The OP is talking about citizenship.People have always entered into marriage contracts to legalise their stay and it would continue to happen...very wrong but unfortunately that is reality.

To become a citizen of most countries ,extensive checks are carried out to ascertain that the applicant meets the set criteria...unfortunately what takes 6 months in the UK for over 100000 applicants a year takes Ireland over 30 months for less than a third of the same number of applicants.

Ireland has historically being an emmigrant country but was ill-prepared for immigration into the country..when we has the supposed boom years...essentially we treated immigration just like we did the economy...inconcise,incomprehensible and shambolic.

KINGVictor

PaulieD wrote: »

I disagree, recent proposals by the government that the married couple needed to reside in another EU country for three years before entering Ireland was very welcome. Ireland is seen as a soft touch. We need to send a message, scammers not welcome.

Charity starts at home.

Where did you get that incorrect information from.

greendom

PaulieD wrote: »

We need to send a message, scammers not welcome.

.

So do we kick out half the Irish native population as well; for a start FF politiicians, bankers, property developers, etc etc. If we were to get rid of all scammers we'd probably only be left with the hard working Eastern Europeans :rolleyes:;)

PaulieD

KINGVictor wrote: »

Where did you get that incorrect information from.

New legislation was passed by new MoJ, Ahern. It was rejected in the ECJ the so called Metock Case effectively allowed non-EU nationals to sidestep immigration law, simply by marrying non-Irish EU citizens - mostly people from Eastern Europe.

It was taken to the ECJ,in the meantime since, july 2008 four irish cases were referred to europe and the ecj ruled that regualtion 3.2 is illegal. so yes as of now, illegals pretty much have a free reign. although i would imagine that state ask for plenty of details to be happy that the relationship prior to marriage and marriage itself are legit. eg letters from Private tenancy board and landlord, bank details etc

so its back to the drawing boards, be interesting to see how busy (or not) the family law courts will be in 2-5 years. europe itself needs to change the law, uk and denmark seem to ally ireland on this.

Food for thought, the new immigration bill will require non nationals to also apply to the minister for permission to marry in ireland 3 months before marriage. failure equals invalid marriage. it clearly excludes marriage of asylum seekers (no not refugees) and illegals. instersting to see if it violates eu law and the constitution.

*I am just answering questions about sham marriages, I did not bring it up*