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Soccer forum. Re: Economist thread.

eagle eye

Regarding this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055578083

It was locked up pretty quickly. The fact of the matter is that a lot of posters who know Helix are quite concerned about this. We can't air our grievances, as a matter of fact there are a lot of posters who are afraid to say anything at all lest they too get banned.

I often disagree with Helix on football matters, actually we rarely agree, but the guy is respectful of others and is clearly very popular in the forum.

I really want to start about this moderator but thats not the point of this thread. I just want to know how we can show our support for Helix?

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Theresalwaysone

Like I've said before,

I have called Lloyd numerous names in the "Poker forum versus Soccer forum" football matches. By the logic being given here I should be banned from both those fora?

Really? Come off it lads.

Dudess

Jazzy wrote: »

you are always so paranoid about that subject. perhaps a reflection of other peoples paranoia as regard ganging.

No, I get defensive about it because there are constant whinges of "Mammy, mods do this, mods do that" yet, eh... I'm a mod and I don't do any of the stuff you and others refer to. And perhaps read my other comments on this thread.

LuckyLloyd

Onkle wrote: »

That's a whole different scenario. That press release was planned to get a rise. Somebody sitting at a poker table calling somebody a cnut is different altogether.

You see it isn't really. The poker community is small, things that get said at festivals / in clubs travel. The machinations of this incident and Kev's example may be different - but at heart you are talking about the same type of behaviour, with the same end result.

And I'm sure we could come up with many scenarios for other communities / forums on boards.ie that are essentially a rerun of this matter.

Nevyn

There is a bit of a difference bewtwen things said in person and things published on the internet and archived by google for ever.

LuckyLloyd

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is a bit of a difference bewtwen things said in person and things published on the internet and archived by google for ever.

Are you claiming the latter is worse? If so, how much worse? Or have you not thought it through fully?

Theresalwaysone

Lloyd I cant believe you just banned me from the poker and soccer forums. ****ing ridiculous.

He didnt really ban me

ShooterSF

Dudess wrote: »

No, I get defensive about it because there are constant whinges of "Mammy, mods do this, mods do that" yet, eh... I'm a mod and I don't do any of the stuff you and others refer to. And perhaps read my other comments on this thread.

Would you agree that at least one mod on this topic and the admins that closed the original feedback thread are equally guilty of considering a group of posters to be just out looking after each other regardless of the issue?

(My opinion is both claims are wrong.)

Time Magazine

Gareth Barry is a money-whoring prick.

That'd get me banned on the Soccer forum, for good reason. Am I going to get banned from Soccer for it? I hope not. Much the same applies here. And even if it doesn't, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Gary ITR

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You see it isn't really. The poker community is small, things that get said at festivals / in clubs travel. The machinations of this incident and Kev's example may be different - but at heart you are talking about the same type of behaviour, with the same end result.

And I'm sure we could come up with many scenarios for other communities / forums on boards.ie that are essentially a rerun of this matter.

But when things are said in person, they are said then gone. Like I said earlier this press release was planned to get a rise

FWIW I don't agree with a perm ban but I do think that those involved should man up and apologise. Helix may not have said those things but he did reuse and repost them

Jazzy

Dudess wrote: »

No, I get defensive about it because there are constant whinges of "Mammy, mods do this, mods do this" yet, eh... I'm a mod and I don't do any of the stuff you and others refer to. And perhaps read my other comments on this thread.

aye but it happens. a lot. more then most would admit or like. its a tricky one to defend as it seems like a deflection when you say it. i dunno, if i was a mod id have enough faith in myself and my abilities to overlook such cries. then again, id probably be a terrible mod.

helix wrote:

in light of a second xpert eleven player banned from soccer, is it possible perhaps that the mod in question just doesnt "get" the banter part of the game?

i saw this in the help thread and i thought that comment was pretty on the ball. since when do ppl from boards have the right to judge the state of banter on other sites? attitudes change from place to place and its very easy from an outside perspective not to get something, or would yore ma say differently ?

tallaght01

I personally think there's a broader issue at play here.

I read the soccer forum a lot, though I don't have access. But I think I have a feel for the place.

What has always struck me in there is the uneasy relationship the mods have with the users, and vice versa. There's no mutual respect.

The mods don't seem to like a lot of the users, and the users seem to dislike a lot of the mods. It's like a school in there.

People post random things about how the soccer forum users are idiots. I don't think that's true. I think some of the trouble is caused by people being like soccer fans. I know when I'm at a Sunderland game, I'll join in the chants about Alan Shearer having AIDS. But I wouldn't usually be an abusive guy. I think it's the nature of soccer. People who don't support a team may say it's no excuse. But those of us who love soccer will know what I'm talking about.

But a lot of the problems stem from the users having no respect for the mods, and the dictatorial way the place seems to be run. Rules are laid down, and you accept them or get banned. There doesn't *seem* to be much engagement with the users.

Now, I know that may seem a bit irrelevant to the price of cabbage in Cambodia. But the point I'm making is that none of this would have happened if the mods and users had a mutual respect for each other. Most forums have a moderator that the punters like, and respect. And usually, things can be sorted out by a PM or a friendly word. Most forums would never had these problems arise in the first place.

All I'm saying is that sometimes you need to start from the bottom up, and just make sure everyone is cool with what's going on in a general sense.

hullaballoo

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Seems to me it's pretty harsh to ban him as from what I understand the other site seems to encourage a bit of banter amongst people and the kinds of exchanges that wouldn't be tolerated on Boards.

In fairness to the Admins they were trying to do the right thing but perhaps weren't aware of the way people related to one another on the other site. Looks like there's a bit of crossed wires on this matter.

From what I've seen of Helix on the soccer forum he's never struck me as a troublemaker so I hope the issue can be resolved.

I'm leaning towards being in agreement with this. I think that so far this thread has been reasonably constructive in terms of achieving what we really need it to - level-headed debate on a serious issue.

However, I'm not prepared to say that this was anything but a vitriolic attack against GY by someone who clearly has an issue with her. For that reason, the ban is quite simply warranted. Because Helix has repeatedly refused to take any responsibility for what he posted, (which, by the way, if written in a newspaper would end up being a very clear-cut and lucrative defamation case against the journalist and paper in question) and repeatedly tried to cower away from what he'd written, I think the ban should be a long one. Unrepentant banned members usually find a lack of clemency on our behalf.

However, I'm leaning away from a permanent ban.

PHB

Personally, I think Helix's reactions were pretty bad. I think the excuse of "I was only posting something somebody else said" is just childs play. I think it was personal abuse towards GuanYin and if that had been posted on the soccer forum, I would have reported it [and would have deleted it in the past]. But it wasn't. It was on a diffferent site. That opens up a whole new kettle of fish.

Personally I don't see why the mods are being attacked here. It's been made extremely clear it was an admin decision and thats that. Beyond that loads of soccer users have been very silly in complaining about this on the soccer forum, everyone knows where these matters should be brought up, i.e. here. [eagle eye deserved to be banned.]

That said, I really do worry about the precedent it sets. I don't buy into this whole it doesn't set a precenent, the rules work on it, we're not french.

If somebody does this exact same thing on the xpert11 forum, I would hope that they would recieve the same punishment, in fact I'd imagine the admins would agree with that.

I just don't think the admins realise the full implications of this [then again, maybe they do and are ok with it], and are perhaps responding to what was a very forceful attack on a mod who is modding a very tough forum to mod, not just in terms of dealing with it, but in sheer time spent doing it.

I'd like to know the answers to the following questions though:

A. Will this apply to all associated sites? What counts as an associated site?

There is a fantasy football boards.ie league run on fantasy.premierleague.com, in which there is a forum.
If something gets posted there, will it result in bans on the soccer forum. What about say stuff on daft which is associated with boards. Or eirtaku?

What counts as associated? Will there be an established list?

B. Will this apply to associated events?

Boards beers. If people are insulted here, will that count as abuse and result in bans.

Boards.ie soccer team. If people say abusive things at football games, will they be banned from the soccer forum?

C. If the answer is yes to A, but no to B, what is the reason?
[I would guess you could make the claim that there's no hard evidence, i.e. an internet post, and it would open up a whole new can of worms. But I'd like to know the admin logic]

D. Which forum rules will apply?

Because soccer forums rules are much stricter than any other forum [for damm good reason]

===

For me, I'd worry lots about this. I'd really like somebody to explain the thinking behind the admins decision, because I really can't get my head around it.

If its simply that its an associated site, and therefore subject to the same rules as boards, is that a policy you intend to follow through to fruition?

Will you produce a list of associated sites that operate under boards rules?
Or is this a special case, and if so, why?

===

p.s. If there is more to this than meets the eye, which there may well be, I'd wonder why it isn't a site ban.
I'm not really seeing what else Helix could have done that wasn't made public that would be on the website [since that would resolve the matter fully and few would disagree with the ban]
If it was more serious things done say through email, you'd instantly get a site ban and nobody would complain about that either.

Either way, I'd be interested to hear the admins thoughts on the matter,

ShooterSF

Would it make sense to take the xpert 11 topic elsewhere? I dunno maybe into a gaming forum or something. A topic that expects banter in a forum on a knife edge due to the opinion that the place is a ticking time bomb might not be the best place for it.

redout

The Economist wrote: »

Gareth Barry is a money-whoring prick.

That'd get me banned on the Soccer forum, for good reason. Am I going to get banned from Soccer for it? I hope not. Much the same applies here. And even if it doesn't, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Dont forget Headshot and MayorDenis for thanking an abusive post

Remember the can of worms that one opened in feedback back in January !

mayordenis

How to we all feel about repeatedly calling someone a coward btw?

DSB

mayordenis wrote: »

How to we all feel about repeatedly calling someone a coward btw?

I was gonna make this post actually.

mayordenis

DSB wrote: »

I was gonna make this post actually.

Too scared to were you?

eagle eye

Oh come on.

Two Irish guys go into a bar in Australia and abuse the living daylights out of a person they knew in Ireland.

A guy over in Ireland, who may also dislike the guy that they abused, tells the story of what happened and gets kicked out of his local for telling it.

I don't think so.

Dudess

hullaballoo wrote: »

Because Helix has repeatedly refused to take any responsibility for what he posted, (which, by the way, if written in a newspaper would end up being a very clear-cut and lucrative defamation case against the journalist and paper in question) and repeatedly tried to cower away from what he'd written, I think the ban should be a long one. Unrepentant banned members usually find a lack of clemency on our behalf.

However, I'm leaning away from a permanent ban.

Well you and I know there's more to it than that, hence a punishment being fair game. However, it looks like he was banned for simply publishing what the others said - and that would be a ridiculous, petty, vindictive reason for banning someone... but I know he did more than that, others don't though. It can't be said he abused anyone on the basis of publishing those comments and in that context, because he didn't.

mayordenis

I think I speak for the masses when I say

OUT WITH IT

Helix

orestes wrote: »

the users who abused a mod on another site, whether it was directly or by saying "this is what someone else said", are cowards and bullies who got what they deseerved imo

they didnt get anything

DSB

mayordenis wrote: »

Too scared to were you?

Hahaha nice ironing.

Jazzy

ShooterSF wrote: »

Would it make sense to take the xpert 11 topic elsewhere? I dunno maybe into a gaming forum or something. A topic that expects banter in a forum on a knife edge due to the opinion that the place is a ticking time bomb might not be the best place for it.

amazingly the gaming forums tend to be a vaccuum for fun and banter nowadays. gaming is pretty serious... its all about the HEGA - Hardcore Esports Gaming Action

ultimately, this is the sorta thing that will drag on and on and will continue to spread like wildfire. i tend to agree with hullabaloo about some form of ban as ultimately, the text in question contained abuse to a mod (despite helix not being the direct abuser) and the abuse rule needs to be cleared up so this doesnt happen.
personally, i think the abuse rule is one that goes against nature and will ultimately flatline personalities. it would be much better if we could just ban ppl for being idiots... but how do you clarify who is an idiot? same way u clarify abuse?

Dudess

mayordenis wrote: »

I think I speak for the masses when I say

OUT WITH IT

Well GuanYin has had to put up with constant harassment (some of it absolutely repulsive) from Helix and his sidekicks - this episode appears to have been the final straw.

DSB

Dudess wrote: »

Well GuanYin has had to put up with constant harassment (some of it absolutely repulsive) from Helix and his sidekicks - this episode appears to have been the final straw.

The quantity of external abuse really isn't of any relevance here, if its against the rules to abuse boards mods or members on the internet, so be it. If its not, lets not make exceptions because the abuse was particularly bad.

Helix

Dudess wrote: »

I have been reliably informed there is more to this than meets the eye

really? thats news to me

Daysha

Can I make a suggestion here?

Hullaballoo mentioned that this is an extra-ordinary circumstance that is unlikely to reoccur. If that's the case, and the Admins strongly believe this may not happen much often in the future, would it not be fair to let bygones be bygones? You can debate Helix's motives all you like, but the fact is I'm nearly sure he didn't expect in a million years to be permanently banned from a forum he didn't even post the abuse in.

Would it not be fair for the Admins to say "ok, this is a situation that we couldn't foresee, and given the possible ramifications of a permaban, and given the obvious anger and dissappointment of such a possibility occuring, we are happy to wipe the slate clean".

That way, in the future it can be the job of the Admins and the new boards.ie employees to clear up the rules and regulations to minimize the possibility of such an occurance happening again, and if it does happen, we're ready to deal with it in the correct manner".

Or is that too much to ask?

lordgoat

GuanYin wrote: »

This will be my only post.

http://forum.electricpicnic.ie/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=327&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=5760

You banned him for that? ****ing hell that's harsh. It smacks of, 'eh no one's allowed be mean to me or else i'm banning them

Helix, i don't know you but i completely am against your ban. From here it seems you got banned for something retrospectively.

/apologies for going OT, i'm away and only found thid thread now, i quoted from page one or two so i know this looks out of place, i won't remove anythin i said as i stand by it.

I agree with the previous post about if Helix knew this was a perm ban from soccer he woudn't have done it. And as to all the other posts alluding to 'more than meets the eye'. Either spit it out or don't mention it. It's like oh i know something you don't know and it's so important.

mayordenis

Dudess wrote: »

Well GuanYin has had to put up with constant harassment (some of it absolutely repulsive) from Helix and his sidekicks - this episode appears to have been the final straw.

in this league thing? because it's still not tackling the point that is an external independant entity to boards