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Local Elections 2009

Sully

I see the Kilkenny folk have begun their discussion on the 2009 local elections. Probably expect to see campaigning starting early new year from selected candidates. Recent opinion polls have seen a fair bit of damage done to the current government and rightly so. Other party's have improved or remained the same with the biggest change being Fine Gael doing very well in the polls. I am sure this will have a knock on affect when people vote in the local and European elections next year.

Who will/wont you be voting for this year and why? Do you vote for this part usually or has recent times changed your voting preference? Will issues like the boundary, retail developments (or lack thereof) etc. be a decision factor in who you will/wont be voting for?

Ill run the same poll/discussion in the County forum which will include the town council.

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nkay1985

Enigm_a wrote: »

Does anybody know who is running for FF in this year`s Local & European Elections (city & county)? Convention was supposed to be held last Friday in the Tower. Seems to be very hush-hush??

It's been announced to the media alright. Making what seems to be a strange move running four candidates in the East City (formerly ward 2). They have no sitting councillors and the closest they came last time out was with Michael Ivory who's now running as an independent. Gary Wyse, Katherine O'Neill, Stephanie Keating and Pat Ormonde are the candidates. The only one I know of is Stephanie Keating as she ran last time out getting only 432 first preference votes, the second to be eliminated. Maybe somebody else knows more about the others??? They must be hoping that they've enough of a vote to maybe pick up the new seat out there.

They've two candidates running in City North (formerly ward 1). They are Liam Dunne and Gearoid Ryan who I don't know either. Anybody else??? Last time out they ran two with Sean Dower losing his seat, and Maurice Walsh eliminated on the first count. Difficult to see any of the new two unseating any of the current councillors, given the current anti-government feeling.

And out in City South (formerly ward 3) they've decided to run Elaine Walsh alongside sitting councillor Tom Murphy. Again, I don't know who she is. Mary O'Halloran was quite a bit behind the others in the last election so you'd think it'll be her to lose out with the one-seat reduction but Murphy might find himself sweating like a lot of FF candidates around the country come June.

I'm sure that the candidates' respective bios will be made available when they're publicly announced.

In the County, Fianna Fail will field Clr James Tobin and Cllr Kevin Wilkinson for Lismore. In Dungarvan, Cllr Tom Cronin and former TD Ollie Wilkinson will be running.

Source:
http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5224&Itemid=1&ed=521

Bards

Pat Ormond was director of elections in the General election for the Waterford Constituency.

Stan Nangle

longshanks wrote: »

with regard to tk maxx, would everything have been ok if noel frisby hadn't lodged an objection? maybe the relevant authorities would have turned a blind eye to tk maxx's breach of the rules.

Turning a blind eye to breaches of the rules? :eek:

How very Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour of you

Me, I prefer to see the rules - whatever they are - implemented in word and in deed.

But don't mind me, I'm a bit funny that way :rolleyes:

Although - if more people were like me we wouldn't have ended up in the sh*t we are in economically.

But hey, only 5% of the population vote for people like me, so who am I to go against the majority.

I think I'll give up.

NOT! :cool:

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting.

If you keep voting for the people who got us into this mess, with their short-term, me-fein thinking, you'll keep being handed the bill.

And I'll keep pointing out why the Emperor has no clothes as I have done for years (notwithstanding the fact that both Germany and Holland have recently abandoned eVoting because of the flaws we highlighted in 2003).

If you want change, you have to vote for change - and that also means ignoring the PR and Spin put out by people with a vested interest in, and money to spend on, preventing change.

Friday June 5th is Judgement Day.

You are the Judge!

KingLoser

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Me, I prefer to see the rules - whatever they are - implemented in word and in deed.

You're trying to win our votes by telling us you're in support of any currently enforced rule, regardless of how questionable the rule is?

Good luck!

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

You are the Judge!

30 Seconds into the Green Promotional Video.. "I'd like there to be less children in my class so the teacher can pay me more attention"

There's my judgement right there.

Blind Loyalty to FF by the Greens. I won't be listening to any planning advice by the Greens. Any of them.

You cannot blame FF policies and then crawl back into bed with them after the nice week long break the government (FF and Greens) just voted for.

The planning rule that is threatening to take away 50+ jobs in a perfectly viable shop in Waterford should not be followed. Not in the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Anyway.. I will take no advice/opinon/bluster from any Fianna Green candidate on any issue, including this farce with TK Maxx.

Stan Nangle

KingLoser wrote: »

You're trying to win our votes by telling us you're in support of any currently enforced rule, regardless of how questionable the rule is?

Good luck!

We elect the Councillors and TDs who make the rules on our behalf.

It's called Democracy.

I think the reduction of the speed limit on the Tramore Road from 60mph (100k) to 50mph (80k) in the County, and from 60mph (100k) to 37mph (60k) in the City (from Ballindud to SuperQuinn) is pure stupid.

I think the 60k (37mph) limit on the ORR is the product of a warped mind.

But I also accept that we elected the Muppets/Councillors who decided to misinterpret the 2004 Road Traffic Act in such a way as to make these limits the Law of the Land, and to therefore increase the revenue from Speeding Fines.

If you want to see sense prevail on this, and many other issues, in the future, you will get your opportunity on June 5th.

I attended a County Council Meeting recently where an issue arose in relation to who can build what, where, in rural areas. If all the Councillors who claimed that THEY didn't vote for the County Development Plan (which gave legal standing to the condition under discussion), then the Plan would never have been passed, and would never have entered into Law.

If you want change, you have to vote for change.

If you want new rules, you have to vote for people who will implement new rules.

Bertie is gone.

The Galway Tent is gone.

You can now get 19c a kW/h for generating your own electricity.

House insulation standards have been improved by 40% (60% by this time next year)

If, in March 2007, you had suggested any of these things would come to pass by March 2009, you would have been laughed off the pitch.

June 5th. You decide!

If you want to know what I stand for, have a look at my website: www.stan-nangle.ie

If you agree with me, vote for me, if you don't agree with me, vote for someone you do agree with.

Whoever gets elected on june 5th gets to make the rules from now until 2014.

Choose carefully

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

30 Seconds into the Green Promotional Video.. "I'd like there to be less children in my class so the teacher can pay me more attention"

There's my judgement right there.

I can rebut that argument on so many levels!

- The Education budget was increased by €302 Million this year. That was all we could get in the current climate. We wanted €500 million. We couldn't get it. I'll give you Paul Gogarty's phone number if you want to discuss the issue.

- The average class size next year will still be less than the average class size under any and all Fine Gael and/or Labour Education Ministers.

- 46% of voters in Waterford voted Fianna Fail in 2007.

- Help elect 86 Green TDs and just watch what happens in Education.

Blind Loyalty to FF by the Greens. I won't be listening to any planning advice by the Greens. Any of them.

Blind loyalty my hole!

Did you not hear John Gormley's speech last Saturday night?

You cannot blame FF policies and then crawl back into bed with them after the nice week long break the government (FF and Greens) just voted for.

The planning rule that is threatening to take away 50+ jobs in a perfectly viable shop in Waterford should not be followed. Not in the circumstances we find ourselves in.

You see, this is the hypocritical bullsh*t that annoys me most!

The Waterford County Development Plan was voted in by a FINE GAEL controlled Council - even if most of them are now trying to pretend that they didn't vote for it.

Anyway.. I will take no advice/opinon/bluster from any Fianna Green candidate on any issue, including this farce with TK Maxx.

It's Grianna Fail, not Fianna Green. :rolleyes:

Get with the programme

Stan Nangle

KingLoser wrote: »

Green Party? Transform Waterford?

I object!

Yeah, I suppose that was pushing it a bit far.

Waterford is fine the way it is. :rolleyes:

We have two wind turbines in Waterford - 1.7MW

Carlow has 11.20MW
Wexford has 80.90MW
Cork has 130MW
Donegal has 212MW

Even Kilkenny now has 5 Wind Turbines in Listerlin.

Waterford has 2!

Lets keep it that way, shall we?

KingLoser

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Yeah, I suppose that was pushing it a bit far.

Waterford is fine the way it is. :rolleyes:

We have two wind turbines in Waterford - 1.7MW

Carlow has 11.20MW
Wexford has 80.90MW
Cork has 130MW
Donegal has 212MW

Even Kilkenny now has 5 Wind Turbines in Listerlin.

Waterford has 2!

Lets keep it that way, shall we?

Let's see what an Bord Pleanála has to say about that!

JLemmon

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Yeah, I suppose that was pushing it a bit far.

Waterford is fine the way it is. :rolleyes:

We have two wind turbines in Waterford - 1.7MW

Carlow has 11.20MW
Wexford has 80.90MW
Cork has 130MW
Donegal has 212MW

Even Kilkenny now has 5 Wind Turbines in Listerlin.

Waterford has 2!

Lets keep it that way, shall we?

The greens are in the current government and by that
very fact your dead come June, guilt by association,
believe me people don't care about your party you will be decimated
in the local elections along with FF, but being bigger then you they will survive (sadly) . Maybe you want to do some good work
but you did lie down with dogs so come a long hot june the fleas will start biting!
You probably might have done well if you were still in opposition.

Stan Nangle

takola wrote: »

Ok, I'm sorry, I think I'm missing something here. Could you please tell me what wind turbines have to do with TK Maxx and planning laws?

You are correct, this thread is about politics. However, we'd prefer that it not be derailed into a "Support the Green Party" thread which so far is what I am seeing. There's a specific topic here, please keep it to that.

We'd appreciate it if people wouldn't use this board as a means of self promotion.

I was staying on topic, but was putting a context on my responses to comments that other people made.

Where do you draw the line on putting things in context?

adMMM wrote:

Firstly, from a capitalist side of things, Stan should asked to make a contribution towards Boards to be allowed canvass on the site. Effectively this is what he's trying to do as I'm pretty sure that ranting about speed limits and the lack of wind turbines in Waterford has absolutely sweet eff all to do with TK Maxx.

I've no bother making a contribution as long as all other Party hacks do the same.

Speed Limits, Lack of energy infrastructure and TK Maxx are all issues that the County Council have a role in. I thought that connection would be clear.

My only words of advice to you are that there's more to this election than speed limits and green energy. Local elections are won based on a proven track record of working for the community. You, my friend, are a member of the Green Party. Need I say more?

I thought this was a discussion about TK Maxx? :eek:

Freddie59

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Turning a blind eye to breaches of the rules? :eek:

How very Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour of you

Me, I prefer to see the rules - whatever they are - implemented in word and in deed.

But don't mind me, I'm a bit funny that way :rolleyes:

Although - if more people were like me we wouldn't have ended up in the sh*t we are in economically.

But hey, only 5% of the population vote for people like me, so who am I to go against the majority.

I think I'll give up.

NOT! :cool:

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting.

If you keep voting for the people who got us into this mess, with their short-term, me-fein thinking, you'll keep being handed the bill.

And I'll keep pointing out why the Emperor has no clothes as I have done for years (notwithstanding the fact that both Germany and Holland have recently abandoned eVoting because of the flaws we highlighted in 2003).

If you want change, you have to vote for change - and that also means ignoring the PR and Spin put out by people with a vested interest in, and money to spend on, preventing change.

Friday June 5th is Judgement Day.

You are the Judge!

The Green Party has:

Objected to City Centre development.

The Green Party is:

Supporting the enforcement order served on TK Maxx, EFFECTIVELY OBJECTING TO THE OUT OF TOWN DEVELOPMENT.
What do ye actually want Stan? Or are ye really THAT confused?

And oh - you seem to have a major problem being in government with FF.

Why, in that case, are you even a MEMBER of the Green Party, let alone running for Council?

As I said, confused.:)

And as for rules being enforced Stan.......the Greens seem to have conveniently overlooked the recent banking scandals in their lust for power.

Stan Nangle

I'll try and keep this as close to the topic as possible:

The City Council and County Council have agreed Regional Planning Guidelines that are supposed to be the best thought out long term planning strategy for the region. They are voted into law by the elected Councillors.

Those are the rules, and everybody is supposed to obey them.

The objection to TK Maxx is based on the fact that it does not comply with these planning rules.

The objections to the KRM Development were based on the fact that they did not comply with these planning rules.

The point I was trying to make on Page 5 is that turning a blind eye to breaches of the law is not sustainable. We either change the law (if it isn't working), or we enforce the law as written. It's one or the other.

The County Councillors made the rule that TK Maxx is in breach of.

The City Councillors made the rules that the original KRM Plans were in breach of.

So before we start jumping up and down about An Bord Pleanala and "serial objectors", we need to take a hard look at the real problem - whether the rules, as written, are appropriate.

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The City Councillors made the rules that the original KRM Plans were in breach of.
.

... and made KRM go back to drawing board and come up wioth a good plan which was objected to by the Green Party

If you have that much interest about the City why don't you run here instead of the County??

Sully

This thread "Local Elections 2009" is to be used to discuss local politics with the run up to the elections. So far its only Stan Nangle (Green) fighting for your vote on Boards.

I have split the discussion from the TKMaxx thread which was about the Green party and Stan Nangle into this as it was not releveant to the TKMaxx thread. That thread may be wrapped up in politics which can be discussed there but broader issues not related to the TKMaxx thread are for here.

Any non-waterford political issues should be discussed in the Politics forum.

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I can rebut that argument on so many levels!

Rebut away.. I won't be voting for anyone who thinks they can win an argument with "me hole".

As for Paul Gogarty.. I've already said what I've had to say to him. Our class sizes are a disgrace and quoting all the numbers you like won't make you a better judge than me on how huge classes are effecting the children in Waterford.

A little less bluster is required Stan. You lot are in government. Class sizes here are the second worst in Europe. Thats the fact. Unless you teach 30+ children every day then I suggest you just concentrate on winning votes from someone else. You or any of your Green colleagues will never get mine.

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

Rebut away.. I won't be voting for anyone who thinks they can win an argument with "me hole".

Your assertion that I am "blindly loyal to FF" was what earned you the "my hole" comment.

As for Paul Gogarty.. I've already said what I've had to say to him. Our class sizes are a disgrace and quoting all the numbers you like won't make you a better judge than me on how huge classes are effecting the children in Waterford.

When did I claim that I am a better judge of anything than you?

A little less bluster is required Stan. You lot are in government. Class sizes here are the second worst in Europe. Thats the fact. Unless you teach 30+ children every day then I suggest you just concentrate on winning votes from someone else. You or any of your Green colleagues will never get mine.

My lot are in Government, we got a €302 million increase in the Education budget in very difficult circumstances.

What other "lot" would have done better?

Trotter

I'm not doing the class size debate again here. If you took my comment that you personally have a blind loyalty to FF, then I apologise. I meant your party does. In fact, many of your party seem as annoyed as I am about that, but thats for you all to sort out. I know from being in touch with green party members around the country that they are very very disillusioned with the leadership for voting YES to the savage education cuts.

The increase in budget for education is a smokescreen. We have thousands of extra children in the system every year, and its growing at an unprecedented rate. The "increase in budget" line is being pushed by FF. The reality is that kids are being crammed into bigger classes months before the super rich were targetted for tax. So many local schools in Waterford have been effected. Internationally we're a laughing stock for being so far down the class size league table. The government say this recession is an international problem.. yet plenty of countries didnt put more children into a classroom than you'd put cattle in a truck to save money. If Waterford's own representatives don't take a local view on this then I really despair. Representation at local level is where confidence in a party is built or destroyed.

The reality is the Green party performance in government is assessed by the voters, and I would expect the greens have lost a lot of voters in the last year.

Its futile anyway. We are seriously far apart on our education views by the looks of it. I'd prefer to end this discussion here for the benefit of everyone else. I'd love to be able to trust the claims of the greens but I plainly don't.

Slán

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

I'm not doing the class size debate again here. If you took my comment that you personally have a blind loyalty to FF, then I apologise. I meant your party does. In fact, many of your party seem as annoyed as I am about that, but thats for you all to sort out. I know from being in touch with green party members around the country that they are very very disillusioned with the leadership for voting YES to the savage education cuts.

The Party doesn't have blind loyalty to FF either.

The "savage education cuts" were an increase in the budget of €302 million. Most of that went in pay rises to Teachers.

The reality is the Green party performance in government is assessed by the voters, and I would expect the greens have lost a lot of voters in the last year.

Its futile anyway. We are seriously far apart on our education views by the looks of it. I'd prefer to end this discussion here for the benefit of everyone else. I'd love to be able to trust the claims of the greens but I plainly don't.

Slán

I don't think we are far apart on our views on Education and the improvements we want to see, but we are far apart in how we see things being resolved.

80% of Government Spending goes on Health, Education and Social Welfare. In the September Budget every other Department was cut, but Education got an extra €302 million.

You can't spend money you don't have.

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The Party doesn't have blind loyalty to FF either.

The "savage education cuts" were an increase in the budget of €302 million. Most of that went in pay rises to Teachers.

Stan have you spoken to many teachers in your area or are you just not looking for our votes?

Its actually really sad to hear a local Green Party figure talking like this. I had huge hopes for the Greens.

The FF soundbites are wearing off onto the Greens. The education budget as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in the 1st world. Just because teachers are paid well for what they do doesn't detract from the fact that the government wasn't spending what they should have during the good times.

I have the OECD report here. Its plain fact.

So so frustrating to see a party with so much potential sounding just like the PDs did before they suffered from covering FFs arrogance too.

I wish the Greens one thing. I wish them the courage to realise that before they were elected to government, they would never have done/said a lot that they are doing/saying now.

I wanted the Greens to be the alternative, to be the fresh air we needed.

The "most of the increase went to teachers" line is straight from the FF handbook written by Batt O'Keefe.

I wish the Greens would be what I thought they would be.

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

Stan have you spoken to many teachers in your area or are you just not looking for our votes?

Half my family are teachers. Half the members of Waterford Greens are Teachers.

I'm Chairman of a Charity that operates a childcare service. I'm very aware of the problems that exist in the education and childcare sector.

Its actually really sad to hear a local Green Party figure talking like this. I had huge hopes for the Greens.

Talking like what?

You keep misrepresenting the Green Party position, I keep calling you on it.

The FF soundbites are wearing off onto the Greens. The education budget as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in the 1st world. Just because teachers are paid well for what they do doesn't detract from the fact that the government wasn't spending what they should have during the good times.

I totally agree that the Government should have been spending more, and one of the key elements of the Programme for Government is a massive increase in spending on Education - but we can't spend the money if it isn't coming in.

I wish the Greens one thing. I wish them the courage to realise that before they were elected to government, they would never have done/said a lot that they are doing/saying now.

What are they doing that you find so offensive?

If we had gotten a Labour/FF Government in 2007 what would be different today?

The "most of the increase went to teachers" line is straight from the FF handbook written by Batt O'Keefe.

Is it true or not?

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Half my family are teachers. Half the members of Waterford Greens are Teachers.QUOTE]

not a very all encompassing party then is it???

Greens and the TUI must have a lot in common

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Half my family are teachers. Half the members of Waterford Greens are Teachers.

I'm Chairman of a Charity that operates a childcare service. I'm very aware of the problems that exist in the education and childcare sector.

I just feel that there's an air of being unapologetic for the cuts. Do you not agree that there should have been a big increase in the top rate of tax before schoolchildren were hit?

Stan Nangle wrote: »

You keep misrepresenting the Green Party position, I keep calling you on it.

But Stan, I'm telling you what I and many parents and many of my colleagues are seeing. A video that says I want my teacher to be able to pay me more attention etc, and yet the children are cut before the tax rates are put up.

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I totally agree that the Government should have been spending more, and one of the key elements of the Programme for Government is a massive increase in spending on Education - but we can't spend the money if it isn't coming in.

Its the order of the cuts though Stan.. the government hit the class sizes before they hit people on 100k+ who are getting tax deductions on their private pensions costing millions to the state. The state is giving people on 100k+ extra money, and taking the library allowance off primary school children. This isn't just my opinion, the order of the cuts is a frustration to everyone I know.

Stan Nangle wrote: »

What are they doing that you find so offensive?

I feel that listening to many high level Green party members is like listening to completely different people to those who were in the media prior to the election. I find the Green party's seemingly unbreakable support for FF so offensive.

Stan Nangle wrote: »

If we had gotten a Labour/FF Government in 2007 what would be different today?

I don't know to be honest, but I suspect both you and me agree that a Lab/Green government would have done things differently, and prioritised the weak in society, not made them the first targets.

Its my opinion that the Greens have failed to put manners on FF. I had hoped they would. It just feels like the PDs all over again.

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Is it true or not?

I'll trust your figures on that so yes, it may well be, but knowing teachers as you say you do, you'll know that many (not all) work for every cent they earn. Yes we're very lucky to have a secure job, and God I'm grateful I don't have the worries of some people in Bausch and Lomb, or Waterford Crystal. I think some people would prefer I didnt take a wage at all.

If my wages was cut in half, and the other half spend on class sizes, we'd still as a nation be spending a pathetic amount on primary education. Yes theres less money to spend, but the money wasn't being spent when the country was awash with money either.

At a local level in Waterford, some schools are being wickedly hit.

I believe that a motion will / has been put to Waterford City and County councils to call on govt to row back on the education cuts.

Would you support that motion?

I know I'm giving you a hard time, and its absolutely nothing personal, but its very important for me to know how each candidate thinks. I still cannot fathom voting for Green or FF candidates this time however.

Freddie59

Stan Nangle wrote: »

The Party doesn't have blind loyalty to FF either.

Yes they do.

After all that has happened since September they've remained solidly in Government. Power has a habit of doing that to you (and BTW I normally voted FF, so no hidden aganda here).

I find it hilarious that, on the one hand, a Candidate can slate FF, yet accept the fact that they are in bed nationally with them. Left hand, right hand, and all of that......:)

Stan Nangle

Freddie59 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that, on the one hand, a Candidate can slate FF, yet accept the fact that they are in bed nationally with them. Left hand, right hand, and all of that......:)

Unfortunately the only way to get your policies implemented in this Country is to go into coalition with FF. For all the giving out we can do about them, the voters keep re-electing them to Government.

Fine Gael has only been in Government for 19 of its 75 year existence.

Contrast that with the PDs, who have been in Government for 17 years of their 22 years existence by going into coalition with FF.

The Greens are unique in that they are a Policy driven Party. You can't get policies implemented when you are in opposition.

That is a catch 22 we have to live with, and it isn't made any easier by the fact that the collapse in the Global Banking System has collapsed the Global Economy.

My position is very clear: We are where we are. How we got here is a matter for historians. Where we are going is what is important, and that is what we need to be focusing on.

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

I just feel that there's an air of being unapologetic for the cuts. Do you not agree that there should have been a big increase in the top rate of tax before schoolchildren were hit?

A big increase in the top rate will not compensate for the €60 million a day that has disappeared from Revenue as a result of the collapse of the Banking System.

But Stan, I'm telling you what I and many parents and many of my colleagues are seeing. A video that says I want my teacher to be able to pay me more attention etc, and yet the children are cut before the tax rates are put up.

That is the goal.

To reach that goal we need to be able to fund it.

We, as a Country, are spending €60 million a day more than we are taking in. 80% of what we spend goes on Health, Education and Social Welfare.

The September Budget saw no cuts in these three areas - but it did see an increase of €302 million in education.

The Green Party is the only Party committed to making Education **THE** top priority. The problem at the moment is that there is no money for anything - and that isn't just an Irish problem.

Its the order of the cuts though Stan.. the government hit the class sizes before they hit people on 100k+ who are getting tax deductions on their private pensions costing millions to the state. The state is giving people on 100k+ extra money, and taking the library allowance off primary school children. This isn't just my opinion, the order of the cuts is a frustration to everyone I know.

I'll say it again: a €302 Million increase is not a cut (€302 million divided by 1.5 million workers = €201 per annum in extra taxes per worker).

Lets see the Teachers Unions hand back the pay rises they got since 2005 for the sole purpose of reducing class sizes. That would yield a much larger amount of money than the proposals you make - although there will be changes on those issues on April 7th.

I feel that listening to many high level Green party members is like listening to completely different people to those who were in the media prior to the election. I find the Green party's seemingly unbreakable support for FF so offensive.

I can assure you that I felt the same way in 1994-97 when FG and Labour were in Government, and went native. The same goes for a prominent FF TD who couldn't do enough for me in 1996, until he became a Minister in 1997, at which time he went quiet, but the FG and Labour former Ministers suddenly became available again.

If I didn't believe in what the Green Ministers are doing I wouldn't be standing for the Party.

I don't know to be honest, but I suspect both you and me agree that a Lab/Green government would have done things differently, and prioritised the weak in society, not made them the first targets.

80% of Government spending goes on Health, Education and Social Welfare. None of these were cut in September.

Labour have a tendency to pander to the Public Service Unions over the needs of the weak in society. They also have a tendency to take the advice of unionised civil servants as gospel.

Labour don't have a vision of where we need to go, and how we should go about getting there. They are very good at telling us what the Government are doing wrong, but they never tell us what they would do better.

Eamon Ryan forced the CER to reduce electricity prices by 10% the other week, and Lady Wicklow was on the News saying it wasn't enough.

No such thing as "well done". No such thing as " we would have reduced it by more by doing x, y or z". Just a simple "it wasn't enough".

Everything the Green Ministers do "isn't good enough" as far as Labour is concerned - but they never tell us what is "good enough".

In John Gormley's speech last weekend he used the word "Grandstanding" in relation to Labour. Labour are great at Grandstanding when they are in Opposition. But some of us remember what they were like in the 27th Dail when they were in Government - because we had to deal with them, when we could find them.

Its my opinion that the Greens have failed to put manners on FF. I had hoped they would. It just feels like the PDs all over again.

The Greens are 18 months into a 60 month term of Government. Just like Rome wasn't built in a day, getting FF to see sense on some bread and butter issues is going to take a little time - and that goes for FG and Labour too: All three Parties are baulking at Green attempts to reduce TDs salaries, and at Green attempts to make them present receipts for the expenses they claim.

But you must also remember that 6 Green TDs trying to put manners on 75 FF TDs is a bit of a tall order.

6 Green TDs trying to put manners on 75 FF TDs, 51 FG TDs and 20 Labour TDs is even more difficult.

I'll trust your figures on that so yes, it may well be, but knowing teachers as you say you do, you'll know that many (not all) work for every cent they earn. Yes we're very lucky to have a secure job, and God I'm grateful I don't have the worries of some people in Bausch and Lomb, or Waterford Crystal. I think some people would prefer I didnt take a wage at all.

I know a number of Teachers who worked in the real world while on career breaks who couldn't get back into teaching fast enough. I know a number of Teachers who are also Councillors (for various Parties), and they will all admit which career requires "work".

I couldn't do what a teacher does, and I do appreciate the importance of what teachers do. I want to see more teachers in full time positions and less in temporary positions.

But I also want to see teachers salaries reviewed - with any savings ringfenced within the Education budget for additional staff/resources.

If my wages was cut in half, and the other half spend on class sizes, we'd still as a nation be spending a pathetic amount on primary education. Yes theres less money to spend, but the money wasn't being spent when the country was awash with money either.

Which is the whole point of the Green Party Video you referred to.

I believe that a motion will / has been put to Waterford City and County councils to call on govt to row back on the education cuts.

Would you support that motion?

An additional €302 million is not a "cut".

Waterford City and County Council are both controlled by Fine Gael, so anything they come out with is likely to be partisan, and not a reflection on what they would say if FG were in Government and had to find €60 million a day in cuts.

I know I'm giving you a hard time, and its absolutely nothing personal, but its very important for me to know how each candidate thinks. I still cannot fathom voting for Green or FF candidates this time however.

So who are you going to vote for?

Fine Gael are currently promising to deliver a level of whup-ass to the public service that would make the PDs blush, while the Labour Party are promising to make our grandchildren pick up the tab for the unsustainable levels of pay and perks that the public service currently enjoy ( and whatever you are having yourself).

Green Party Policy is as set out in the video.

86 Green TDs and you get that policy in spades.

With 6, 8, 10, or even 20 Green TDs you still get the old school, vested interests of FF, FG and Labour backers taking priority.

I'm biased - I'll put my hands up on that score - but I'm happy to nail my colours to the Green mast.

I could have run for a different Party (or two) and I could have run as an Independent.

I'm standing for the Green Party.

Lots of people tell me I'm nuts to do so, and lots of others tell me I'm right to do so.

June 6th will tell whether standing for the Greens was smart, but it is certainly right - and I'm happy to debate the merits of Green Policy on this, the TK Maxx, or any other thread.

Where do we want to get to, and how are we going to get there?

Trotter

Stan Nangle wrote: »

I'll say it again: a €302 Million increase is not a cut (€302 million divided by 1.5 million workers = €201 per annum in extra taxes per worker).

Say it as many times as you like Stan. Are you actually seriously telling me there were no education cuts?

Here's some.

* Class sizes will be increased. This will mean that thousands of children will be in classes of over 30.

* A school will only be allowed two English as an Additional Language Teachers irrespective of the number of non English speaking students in the school.

* The free book grant for families with financial difficulties is abolished.

*Funding for special equipment and library books will not now be given to schools.

*The Plan for Students with Special Educational Needs (EPSEN) Act 2004 has been delayed. This will delay improvements for children with special needs in our school.

Irish Times - Support for pupils with special needs to be cut

Have you read your figures on the increase in student numbers at primary level over the lifetime of the government? If there was an increase (and you and me know well there was a huge increase) then someone has to teach those children. Teacher numbers increase to teach the increasing child numbers, teaching salary total goes up because teachers need to be paid.

Im tired of you playing figures here. Its none of your business who I'll vote for. I'll give you this though, it will never be Green or FF. I'm not responding to you again.

Stan Nangle

Trotter wrote: »

Im tired of you playing figures here. Its none of your business who I'll vote for. I'll give you this though, it will never be Green or FF. I'm not responding to you again.

My interest in who you are going to vote for is rhetorical.

We both agree on the outcome we wish to see in terms of additional resources for Education.

Show me another Party that is committed to that outcome and I'll vote for them too!

Stan Nangle

And as for the edits you added:

What part of "We are spending €60 million a day more than we are taking in" are you not quite getting?

There are lots of things I'd love to see Government spending money on, but when I go to Ministers with these suggestions I get asked "where will the money come from?".

A Euro is worth twice what it was worth a year ago.

Why are my taxes not buying twice as many teachers (TDs, Senators, Councillors, Civil Servants and Union Officials) as they were a year ago?

Bards

Stan Nangle wrote: »

And A Euro is worth twice what it was worth a year ago.

Why are my taxes not buying twice as many teachers (TDs, Senators, Councillors, Civil Servants and Union Officials) as they were a year ago?

it would if TD's, Senators , Consultants and the rest of the overpaid civil servants took a 50% pay cut to reflect their actual worth to Irish society