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BSG 2003 S4E15 "No Exit" FRACKING SPOILERS

Overheal

They cram a lot of eye popping new material in just the first 3 minutes. This looks like its going to be a big mother fracking opener of an episode.

edit: actually, information overload: im going to have to rewatch this. Frak.

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Overheal

Galactica is an old ship... but that just seems unlikely to me, that the 5 would somehow plant the signal within the ship.

More likely it was some beacon left in the Nebula by Anders to recognize if they ever went back to the nebula, and Galactica's hull just started picking up on the signal when they got closer - like braces and FM radio but not really.

Cavil may have later reprogrammed the other Cylons not to think of the final five, as 6 suggests, she was programmed not to think of the final five. But then Cavil assumed they were machines: eventually the other models start thinking about them anyway, the way a Human might with free will. Presumably he kept the bodies secreted from the other models somewhere only Centurions or 1's were permitted to enter.

Now according to the intro to this episode and the miniseries, at the end of the Cylon War 40 years ago they just suddenly left after brokering an Armistice. Evidently thats when the 5 arrived and convinced them to give up war. They co-created the skinjobs and developed humans that werent humans, that didnt embrace greed and war and all that jazz. Ironically, Cavil was made too human, grew a tad psychotic and drove on with his genocide after killing and planting the final 5.

Kobol is the Birthplace of humanity, and then there were the lords of kobol. According to some googling according to a deleted scene Elosha the Priest talks about one lord wishing to be worshiped above the others and thats what ignited the exodus. so that would make him the 13th lord of Kobol? idk. I think the lords were humans that used and invented resurrection tech. There were 12 models after that, each a tribe. This is where I get into guessing. The 13th tribe was a rebellious group made up of dissenters from the 12 tribes. They were the ones that wanted to procreate. So they set fire to Kobol and destroyed the resurrection technology. Then they left to discover a new planet (Earth). The 12 tribes/models, now devoid of their resurrection, became mortal, started procreating, and founded the 12 colonies. Three-ish Thousand years later, the truth was washed over by myth lore and religious sentiments.

Derek Coleman

Overheal wrote: »

Elosha the Priest talks about one lord wishing to be worshiped above the others and thats what ignited the exodus. so that would make him the 13th lord of Kobol? idk. I think the lords were humans that used and invented resurrection tech. There were 12 models after that, each a tribe.

Totally agree with this. Look at the character profile for the Lord 'Mithras' and he fits the bill. His followers are likened to Baltars followers and if he decided to leave Kobol I'm sure he brought a tribe of people with him.
And I agree that the Lords of Kobol probably created Ressurection tech and used it to elevate their status higher than the normal people of Kobol.

I just had a scary thought........ If Mithras and his followers came to Earth then this man could be Jesus Christ! He ressurected aswell and had his devoted followers. He believed in a God and also that he was part of God and all that stuff. OMG.

MisterAnarchy

DeVore wrote: »

There are no humans. They are all cylons, even the original creators on Kobol.

(at least thats my theory!)

DeV.

Perhaps.
It certainly would explain how the twelve colonies inhabitants have no knowledge of Kobol or their previous history.Simply deleted from their memories.
If the 12 tribes left Kobol 2000 years ago they must have had spaceships and ones with FTL drives too .
2000 years later their technology has barely evolved .
It seems that they went back to basics when they went to the 12 colonies ,foresaking all technology and returning to agricultural life.
Perhaps they didnt wish to repeat their mistakes of AI and wished to bury their technology for millennia.
History has a habit of repeating itself and 2000 years later technology had advanced sufficiently and there is another war where machine turns on its creator.

Derek Coleman

Wait...... why do you think memories have been deleted on anyone? The people in the fleet have all been born from their mothers body.

If the original founders of the twelve colonies were cylon then they had kids who had kids who had kids etc.. So everyone would be a cylon in their DNA but they are what they are.

And remember the word cylon was made up by the creators of artifical life on Caprica so don't expect the word CYLON to appear in their history books.

MisterAnarchy

Derek Coleman wrote: »

Wait...... why do you think memories have been deleted on anyone?

A technologically advanced race with faster than light space drives left Kobol 2000 years ago .
They colonised 12 planets .
2000 years later the 12 colonies are in a similar technological state,that doesnt make any sense.
Something happened to set the 12 tribes back over 2 millennia in technology.
Why are there no records of life on Kobol bar some vague scrolls ?
It doesnt make sense .
The original 12 tribes when colonising the 12 colonies must have either forgotten their past (or deleted it ) and returned to a less technologically advanced civilisation.
Look how far evolved technology is here compared to 1AD or even 1800 AD ?

Stark

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

A technologically advanced race with faster than light space drives left Kobol 2000 years ago .
They colonised 12 planets .
2000 years later the 12 colonies are in a similar technological state,that doesnt make any sense.
Something happened to set the 12 tribes back over 2 millennia in technology.
Why are there no records of life on Kobol bar some vague scrolls ?
It doesnt make sense .
The original 12 tribes when colonising the 12 colonies must have either forgotten their past (or deleted it ) and returned to a less technologically advanced civilisation.
Look how far evolved technology is here compared to 1AD or even 1800 AD ?

A guess might be that Earth is an awful lot closer to Kobol than the 12 colonies are. So if the 12 tribes were travelling at sub-light speeds but still close to the speed of light, then for them a few years would pass but 2000 years would have passed for them as far as the occupants of Kobol/Earth are concerned.

MisterAnarchy

Stark wrote: »

A guess might be that Earth is an awful lot closer to Kobol than the 12 colonies are. So if the 12 tribes were travelling at sub-light speeds but still close to the speed of light, then for them a few years would pass but 2000 years would have passed for them as far as the occupants of Kobol/Earth are concerned.

No.
The 12 tribes have been living on the 12 colonies for 2000 years,that is well known.

This whole relativity stuff is a bit of a cop out if you ask me.
I honestly think that the writers have been making this stuff as they went along.
Even Ron Moore hints heavily towards this in his podcasts.
With all the strange things there are to explain, it's hard to believe that they've managed to retrofit a convincing explanation.
Will have to wait and see though.

Overheal

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

This whole relativity stuff is a bit of a cop out if you ask me.
I honestly think that the writers have been making this stuff as they went along.

Theyre making stuff up as they go, but they have not rewritten the special theory of relativity.

spooydermot

seeing as the mini series was mentioned above - do we ever get a hintof who might have left that fateful note for adama "there are 12 cylon models" ?

MisterAnarchy

Overheal wrote: »

Theyre making stuff up as they go, but they have not rewritten the special theory of relativity.

I am well aware of the theory of special relativity but I think in this case it is a contrived plot mechanism.
If you think about it one of the consequences of special relativity is that , no information or material object can travel faster than light.
So where does that leave the FTL drives

There are still 5 more episodes left so I'm sure there will be lots more answers but I dont like the way they explained the 2,000 year journey of the Final 5,far too convenient.
Answers to come
Who are the Lords of Kobol,where are they now?
Why were the humans starting more-or-less from scratch tech-wise on the 12 colonies ?
Why did the Final 4 all remember they're Cylons when they're in the nebula ?
What's with the music. And the Opera House visions. And what are Head 6 and Head Baltar?
If Earth Cylons could have babies, why is Hera important?
What the hell is Starbuck ?

noodler

spooydermot wrote: »

seeing as the mini series was mentioned above - do we ever get a hintof who might have left that fateful note for adama "there are 12 cylon models" ?

What note? When?

tvnutz

noodler wrote: »

What note? When?

Near the end of the mini series there is a note on adama's desk saying "there are only 12 cylon models" that's how the humans first found out how many cylon models there were. I also always wondered who left that note as well.

Sad Professor

The timeline is a complete disaster.

* Originally (in Kobol's Last Gleaming and Home 1 & 2) it was said that all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time 2000 years ago.

* Then later (in A Measure of Salvation) it was said that the 13th tribe left on it's own 3000 years ago.

* Then (in Eye of Jupiter) it was said that they left 4000 years ago (and the Temple of Five/Hope was built around the same time).

* Now we've got Ellen saying 3000 years again.

And in his podcast RDM is still talking as if all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time. Then there's the Pythia 3600 years ago stuff.

Can anyone make any sense of this?

MisterAnarchy

Sad Professor wrote: »

The timeline is a complete disaster.

* Originally (in Kobol's Last Gleaming and Home 1 & 2) it was said that all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time 2000 years ago.

* Then later (in A Measure of Salvation) it was said that the 13th tribe left on it's own 3000 years ago.

* Then (in Eye of Jupiter) it was said that they left 4000 years ago (and the Temple of Five/Hope was built around the same time).

* Now we've got Ellen saying 3000 years again.

And in his podcast RDM is still talking as if all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time. Then there's the Pythia 3600 years ago stuff.

Can anyone make any sense of this?

Easily explained by relativity .:D

Vokes

I reckon there's a good chance that Kara's father is a number #7 Cylon (one who managed to escape from Cavil somehow) ? We learnt in Maelstrom, that Thrace's mother didn't treat her all that well, even with contempt sometimes? I wonder why....

Slutmonkey57b

tvnutz wrote: »

Near the end of the mini series there is a note on adama's desk saying "there are only 12 cylon models" that's how the humans first found out how many cylon models there were. I also always wondered who left that note as well.

There were plenty of sleeper agents on board Galactica at the time, including Cavail himself. As he was the first, he has more knowledge of the whole sequence than anyone.

Sad Professor wrote: »

The timeline is a complete disaster.

* Originally (in Kobol's Last Gleaming and Home 1 & 2) it was said that all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time 2000 years ago.

* Then later (in A Measure of Salvation) it was said that the 13th tribe left on it's own 3000 years ago.

* Then (in Eye of Jupiter) it was said that they left 4000 years ago (and the Temple of Five/Hope was built around the same time).

* Now we've got Ellen saying 3000 years again.

And in his podcast RDM is still talking as if all 13 tribes left Kobol at the same time. Then there's the Pythia 3600 years ago stuff.

Can anyone make any sense of this?

No, what you've got there is *characters* stating the timeline, according to what information they've got. Since all this is ancient history, it's not to be expected that dates and histories will be accurate or complementary.

Stark

tvnutz wrote: »

Near the end of the mini series there is a note on adama's desk saying "there are only 12 cylon models" that's how the humans first found out how many cylon models there were. I also always wondered who left that note as well.

I think it was most likely Baltar. Six told him she was No.6 out of 12 models in the miniseries. Leaving an anonymous note on Adama's desk was his way of relieving a small part of his guilt but not actually revealing himself.

Suaimhneach

All I can say is I hope when its all explained (if its all explained) that they do one of those five minute simlified releases. I love BSG in all its complexity but I've watched the most recent episode twice and I am still no closer to following.

tvnutz

Stark wrote: »

I think it was most likely Baltar. Six told him she was No.6 out of 12 models in the miniseries. Leaving an anonymous note on Adama's desk was his way of relieving a small part of his guilt but not actually revealing himself.

Ah ye I forgot 6 actually told Balthar there were 12 models,I thought none of the humans knew about how many models there were. It makes sense if it was him.

Overheal

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I am well aware of the theory of special relativity but I think in this case it is a contrived plot mechanism.
If you think about it one of the consequences of special relativity is that , no information or material object can travel faster than light.
So where does that leave the FTL drives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect

Endaaaagh

Talisman wrote: »

The model 7, Daniel was an artist, Starbuck is a bit of an artist herself and we know she was resurrected - coincidence?

Overheal wrote: »

well she is rather manly...but then they did mention the line was utterly abolished down to the genome. So its doubtful.

Is it Daniel or Danielle

(or hwever you spell that girls name that sounds like Daniel)

Derek Coleman

Its Daniel. But people are guessing its Starbuck regardless of her sex because its BSG and anything can happen at this stage.

noodler

I am going to go with the Hyrbid from Razor being Kara's dead (hence the harbinger of death bit) as well as being Daniel so I agree atm with those who reckon Daniel is Kara's dad.

The artist hint was too blatant to ignore.

stakey

There's two choices here:

1) Daniel died as per Ellens story and it's just been thrown in to tie up the loose ends for the fans, ie. resolve the issue with Boomer being number eight. The name Daniel is more than likely just a nod towards Daniel Greystone of Caprica.

Mind you, seeing as the final five designed all the eight skinjobs in the likeness of people they knew who's to say the Cylon Centurions didn't have a say in designing a cylon that looked like Daniel

Greystone, there supposed designer on Caprica

.

2) Daniel's line was destroyed as per Ellens story, however in order to save his likeness Ellen wipes the mind of a Daniel and sends him to live amongst the humans in the twelve colonies. Protecting his DNA for the future and hopefully one day in the future managing to resurrect his line.

In the meantime whilst living in the colonies, the Daniel model adopts a new name and the artist within him grows again as he learns how to play the piano (Kara mentions here father was a gifted pianist). He meets up with Kara's mother and the rest we know as history. Due to his programming he goes a little crazy and disappears from Kara's life as a child and leaves Kara's mother to raise her. It's possible Kara's mother knew of Daniels origins by some means, hence her referring to her daughter as special.

Just an idea.

GunScope

This episode was amazing, so much information revealed in soo little time ...
very much looking forward to the coming episodes now .... so exciting

Derek Coleman

If Daniel is Kara Thraces father then maybe.....

Daniel is sent to Caprica by Ellen and lives on Caprica as one of them.
Because he has no copies to download in to he is essentially mortal which seems to be the only thing so far to allow cylons to have kids.
He meets a woman and has a kid called Kara Thrace.
Daniel has to tell Kara's mother he is a cylon which means her kid is half cylon.
This leads to Kara's mothers contempt and hatred for her.
Daniel is forced to leave Kara and the colonies in search of the others and he is the one who has left all the road signs on the way to Earth.
Daniel is responsible for the Kara Thrace mystery but I'll be damned if I can guess why.

P.S. Memory Wiping - The final five had their memories blocked by Cavil after the ressurection process. I don't think its possible if you don't go through the ressurection part so Daniel should know everything.

kevmy

Great episode can't believe how anyone thought this was boring in the slightest.

Obviously to stop the cycle 'humans' and cylons must learn to live together as equals. Galactica being made half cylon will aid this.

Cavill and co still need to be destroyed though as he will not let them live together.

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I am well aware of the theory of special relativity but I think in this case it is a contrived plot mechanism.
If you think about it one of the consequences of special relativity is that , no information or material object can travel faster than light.
So where does that leave the FTL drives

There are still 5 more episodes left so I'm sure there will be lots more answers but I dont like the way they explained the 2,000 year journey of the Final 5,far too convenient.
Answers to come
Who are the Lords of Kobol,where are they now?
Why were the humans starting more-or-less from scratch tech-wise on the 12 colonies ?
Why did the Final 4 all remember they're Cylons when they're in the nebula ?
What's with the music. And the Opera House visions. And what are Head 6 and Head Baltar?
If Earth Cylons could have babies, why is Hera important?
What the hell is Starbuck ?

Who ever said that the 13 colonies ever had FTL up until recently. Also the lack of some technology is explained by the fact that the cylons infected the computers during the 1st Cylon War.

Daniel and Kara are linked somehow without doubt in my mind. He could be her dad.

Also he could have downloaded his mind as he was obviously alive at some point and it could have been downloaded into a different body - possibly Kara. She is less than 40 so it could have been her. His line of models were destroyed but there is no reason why his conciousness should be.

Stark

Derek Coleman wrote:

Because he has no copies to download in to he is essentially mortal which seems to be the only thing so far to allow cylons to have kids.

Sharon Agathon became pregnant on Caprica in the presence of resurrection technology though.

CiDeRmAn

The 13 colonies were not the ones without FTL, it was the refugees from earth, in the resurection ship that traveled at relativistic speeds, so the trip took nearly all of the 2000 years from leaving the nuked earth to arriving at the 12 colonies to intervene in the 1st cylon war.

Also, it surely means to that the Final Five are actually simply human, just with the resurrection ability turned on, whilst the cylons human models are also human, but with the psychology of an advanced AI forming the patterns laid out in the meat of their brains.

silvine

I've watched BSG since the start and I am confused.

Who is this Daniel guy and when was he in it? Is there an episode I need to go back and watch or something?