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BSG 2003 S4E15 "No Exit" FRACKING SPOILERS

Overheal

They cram a lot of eye popping new material in just the first 3 minutes. This looks like its going to be a big mother fracking opener of an episode.

edit: actually, information overload: im going to have to rewatch this. Frak.

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Vokes

She must have been brought there (or back more likely) by some as yet unknown third party who are manipulating events.

The same party who are represented by Baltar's Head-Six perhaps.

Probably the same party that forewarned Anders et al., about the impending Earth disaster. i.e., just before Anders is sent into surgery, he says he saw a woman that no-one else could see (Head-Six?), that Tori could see a man that no-one else could see (Head-Baltar?) and that Tyrol thought he had a chip in his head :eek:

Orizio

Awful. This pseudo-'philosophical' dialogue between the cylons has always been the most tedious and absurd part of the show. No more please.

Slutmonkey57b

It's the driving force behind the show so it's not likely to stop. The philosophical quandries are what elevates BSG over pretty much all other sci-fi we've seen.

Johnny Storm

Orizio wrote: »

Awful. This pseudo-'philosophical' dialogue between the cylons has always been the most tedious and absurd part of the show. No more please.

I thought that was a very good ep but I agree that the Cylons are Zzzzzzzzzzzz.....

They have a plan you know :rolleyes:

Maybe Ellen can crank up the interest level a bit?

Edited to clarify: I'm not talking about the final 5 Clons here. I agree that they are a vital part of the show. Its Cavil, and the other "numbered" Cylons that make me groan when I see them on-screen.

Orizio

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

It's the driving force behind the show so it's not likely to stop. The philosophical quandries are what elevates BSG over pretty much all other sci-fi we've seen.

I can't say I watch other Sci-Fi, but I always felt that BSG was one of the best shows on TV (whatever genre) because of how well written and engaging the characters are, and just generally its very well produced and paced. Any attempts at philosophy are best done in a more subtle manner, rather then minutes long debates that remind more of some god awful university lecture. As far as I am concerned, episodes like last night just drag on and on and on...

noodler

I like the Cylons talk personally. It can't all be guns and splosions and they are integral in the storyline.

Season 4 should have been longer by a few more episodes.

Pepe LeFrits

This episode reminded me of the scene with Neo and the Architect in the Matrix Retarded. Not great tbh.

Orizio

noodler wrote: »

I like the Cylons talk personally. It can't all be guns and splosions and they are integral in the storyline.

Season 4 should have been longer by a few more episodes.

Completely right, and I wouldn't what it to be all action, just less of the philosophy lectures.

noodler

But weren't they completely explaining the birth of the 8 models we know?

Are we all talking specifically about the bit where Cavil moans he had to watch a supernova with his crappy human eyes?

I thought that scene was interesting because it was the one where Cavil's animosity towards Ellen developed into hate (at least the first time it did so for the viewer- I am sure he has been pissed with the final 5 for ages).

One more thing, anyone else find it hard to believe the other Cylon Models on Cavil's side would be up for labotimising one of the revered Final Five?

Suaimhneach

Okay. But Cavil mapped Ellen's brain for guidelines on how to build a resurrection ship, approx six months ago in their time. So, there could be a resurrection hub already. And if not, the final four (if himself dies) could re-build it (they have the technology...).

MOH

Jesjes wrote: »

Okay. But Cavil mapped Ellen's brain for guidelines on how to build a resurrection ship, approx six months ago in their time. So, there could be a resurrection hub already. And if not, the final four (if himself dies) could re-build it (they have the technology...).

Huh? No, he was about to map her brain when Boomer helped her escape.

Finally, some answers. Especially to the question that's been bugging me for ages - how did the rebel Cylons go from basic metal models to skin jobs in just 40 years? It's starting to look like they might just pull off an ending that makes sense, I confess to having doubts recently (burn the heretic!).

Goodshape

Orizio wrote: »

Completely right, and I wouldn't what it to be all action, just less of the philosophy lectures.

It did veer that way a little (such is the way with BSG) but mostly this was explaining a whole lot of very relevant (to the story, the show, the characters) things.

And as long talky explanation episodes go, this one rocked.

Only 5 episodes left :eek:

Suaimhneach

Oh yeah. I need to re-watch this episode. I'ma go do that now. Point still stands. Boomer and Ellen could just jump into the fleet at any minute (having floated through space for ages) and then re-build a resurrection hub with the other 4 in the fleet.

Stark

Had a lot of questions answered which was good. Not so sure about the way most of them were delivered though. It felt like we had about 20 mins of Anders reciting a theory written on an internet blog post to Starbuck. Similarly with some of Ellen's exposition.

Some answers not so satisfying. Like they knew the world was going to be ****ed, so they went to all the trouble of building a resurrection hub in space, then went and got themselves killed and had themselves resurrected in orbit. Why not just hop on a ship into space? The No. 7 thing felt a bit clumsy. They could have eked a bit more drama from that.

Not quite so sure about the planet of effectively human cylons living and reproducing as humans then creating cylons of their own. Who created the original skinjobs and why? I think it might have made more sense if the Final Five were originally human but had themselves resurrected into cylon bodies when they found out they were going to die.

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

Who created the original skinjobs and why? I think it might have made more sense if the Final Five were originally human but had themselves resurrected into cylon bodies when they found out they were going to die.

Haven't you answered your own question there? We know that the original humans created AI (cylons) who then rebelled. We don't know how or why they created them, or definitely what form they took. In the current cycle, the Centurions created the hybrids, but they couldn't get as far as skinjobs. Maybe the cycle last time was humans created centurions, then created skinjobs as an immortality system, rather than humans created centurions, centurions created skinjobs.

Reflector

I mean wow, I think I posted a close aproxiation of ellens comeback in another thread. and also I asked about the numbering and why there was no 7 so glad they filled that even if it was just for the sake of it. I'm a bit of a nerd like that. I reckon that ellen was pregnant with Daniels child, She gave birth and gave it up. Would explain why Kara's mother was such a bitch. Also therefore she is cylon and has some of Daniels artistic talents along with genetic memories of ellen and earth??? Although this would mean that a dead pregnant cylon downloads and is still pregnant so could be a problem

Talisman

Stark wrote: »

Had a lot of questions answered which was good. Not so sure about the way most of them were delivered though. It felt like we had about 20 mins of Anders reciting a theory written on an internet blog post to Starbuck. Similarly with some of Ellen's exposition.

Considering there are only five episodes of the entire series remaining there was going to be an information overload at some point if they wanted to tie up all the loose ends.

Some answers not so satisfying. Like they knew the world was going to be ****ed, so they went to all the trouble of building a resurrection hub in space, then went and got themselves killed and had themselves resurrected in orbit. Why not just hop on a ship into space?

That's not what was said. The thirteenth tribe had the resurrection technology when they travelled from Kobol to Earth. After settling on the planet they no longer relied upon the technology to survive and it was forgotten about. There's a scene in one of the episodes in the first half of season 4 where the Rebel Six talks to the Qorum. She says that the rebels had come to realise that for their existence to have any meaning, then their lives must end without hope of resurrection. In the current iteration of the cycle the Six got pregnant when the hub was destroyed.

The Earthlings created their own AIs and the cycle began again, the final five were trying to reactivate the resurrection technology, their plan was to return to the colonies to warn them about the treatment of the AIs. They didn't have jump drive capability so it was going to take many lifetimes to get back so just jumping on a ship and heading into space wasn't an option.

The No. 7 thing felt a bit clumsy. They could have eked a bit more drama from that.

The revelation about the model 7 is what caused Boomer to switch allegiance to Ellen. She had already seen John Cavil take the decision to box the entire Three line and attempt to wipe out the Two, Six and Eight models because they were opposed to lobotomising the Raiders and wanted to find the final five but it didn't affect her. In the scene where the truth about the 7 model is revealed she saw John Cavil for what he really was.

Not quite so sure about the planet of effectively human cylons living and reproducing as humans then creating cylons of their own. Who created the original skinjobs and why? I think it might have made more sense if the Final Five were originally human but had themselves resurrected into cylon bodies when they found out they were going to die.

It's a cycle - All of this has happened before and will happen again. Does it really matter who created what first? On Kobol, Humans created Cylons - the Cylons sought independence and went off to Earth, some time later these Cylons created their own AIs (lets call them McCylons), the McCylons were slaves of the Cylons and rebelled causing the holocaust which wiped out Earth. The McCylons never developed their own resurrection technology and died out as a race. Chances are the resurrection technology originally came from the Lords of Kobol.

"You point the finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

don ramo

Stark wrote: »

Not quite so sure about the planet of effectively human cylons living and reproducing as humans then creating cylons of their own. Who created the original skinjobs and why? I think it might have made more sense if the Final Five were originally human but had themselves resurrected into cylon bodies when they found out they were going to die.

the final five were originally human, the ressurection was a way to live forever, have your conciousness downloaded into a new body when your old one failed, (like the asguard in stargate), cylons had the conciouness part but were incapable of building a functioning human body, (the hybrids that pilot there ships were there best attempt) thats where the five came in, they would built them bodies if they would leave the humans alone, and when they built the bodies the cylons betrayed them,

ressurection was developed on kobal, where the gods lived, but id say they were only gods cause they lived forever, and something happened on kobal and 13 different groups laeft to find new home, the 13th (earth), obviously went on there own for some unknown reason, some sort of civil war broke out and they redeveloped ressurection technology, and when earth was nuked during the war, the final five were the only survivors, as they used the ressurection technology

i strongly disagree that the 13th tribe were cylons, maybe they were just loners, resurrection is a transfer of conciousness from one body to another, you dont nessesarily need to be a cylon to tranfer,

Volvagia

the 13th tribe were cylons.

That was made pretty clear!

Johnny Storm

Much as I have genuinely enjoyed this final mini-series so far I do have a few more nitpicks (sorry

):
1) IMHO the Galactica's newly revealed "engine" room is stoopid-looking.
2) Cavil is shown this ep as being interested in cosmological events and being furious that his mere human body is not ethereal enough to experience the universe in the way he would like. My problem with that is that in the first few eps that Cavil appeared in, he was shown as the most human and down-to-earth of all the numbered Cylons.

DeVore

There are no humans. They are all cylons, even the original creators on Kobol.

(at least thats my theory!)

DeV.

Mena

DeVore wrote: »

There are no humans. They are all cylons, even the original creators on Kobol.

(at least thats my theory!)

DeV.

I'm with you on this one.

As to this episode... I loved it. Will give it a 2nd viewing this evening when wifey gets home. Frakken great stuff.

homerun_homer

allj97 wrote: »

anybody remember the "swirl" scene between cavil and ellen - after this episode its gonna be hard to watch again !!

The Swirl line made me laugh, I just thought of Seinfeld and his sexual technique in which he finishes with a Swirl.

Anyone else think it's pretty creepy that Cavil was made in the image of Ellen's father. He was banging her on New Caprica. Granted she hasn't the memories of all her past like she does now, and he isn't really her father but that is really gross to think about.

Overheal

^ Thats what she was having a freaky about in the rez tub

Hyzepher

Is this possible.

Everyone on Kobol - except maybe the Lords - are Cylons. All of which use resurrection to keep the race going. At some point 13 tribes have a change of heart and decide to be really alive and make their lives meaningful they need to live without resurrection and they all leave Kobol in search of a new beginning. 12 go together to find the new colonies and one goes its seperate way to discover Earth.

Earth is nearer to Kobol than the colonies and therefore the "legend" of resurrection kind of survives in the memory a bit better than the other 12 tribes - who by the time they discover the colonies have gone through many generations without resurrection and actually think they are human.

The colonists create robot cylons - the cylons are created thinking their creators are human and not the humanoid cylons they really are. Cylons rebel and the 1st war starts.

On Earth the same is happening except the 5 recreate resurrection to survive. They also create robot cylons who also rebel and nuke Earth. The nuking of Earth happens way before the 1st Cylon War as Earth was closer to Kobol and thus the creation of Cylons on that planet was more advanced in years.

The final 5 arrive at the colonies just in time to prevent a holocaust but instead start the cycle of creating humaniod cylons and reintroduce resurrection into the mix.

Cavil goes crazy - kills the 5 and plants them among humans to teach them a lesson. But in fact the humans are actually humaniod cylons but no one actually knows this anymore - not the humans, not the robot cylons, not the 8 or the final 5.

Cavil nukes the colonies - 50k escape and try to find Earth by retracing the route of the final 5. 4 seasons of cat & mouse later, the humans find a nuked Earth and then we learn that everything is kind of backward and the final 5 are actually creators of the 8.

We don't know whether the resurrection ship used by the 5 the first time is actually the vessel they used to reach the colonies. As far as we know it's still orbiting Earth or located on a moon etc. Hence Starbuck's ability to resurrect. it's also quite possible that the final 5 were actually more than 5 - although only 5 went to the colonies. The rest stayed behind on the moon or close by and sent Starbuck on her way after crashing and resurrecting.

The injection of Cylon organic material into Galactica is a huge plot line that will probably unfold the truth about the humans. Dont know how though.

Cavil will be seen as a mad man after it is revealed that he waged war against what will be revealed as the humanoid cylon race.

don ramo

i dont think the humans of earth are cylons, it never came out and stated that, all the 5 know is that they lived on earth and were resurected, and think they are cylons, but this still needs conformation, ressurection is only a transfer of conceiousness,

also starbuck dieing on earth if a fair point, i think shes the first human-cylon baby, and if there is a ship around earth somewhere she could have been resurested on earth, but what about her viper, whats up with that, its deffinately hers, but its brand new, not a scratch on it, and her ond one seemed to be crashed in earth with her body in it,

jor el

noodler wrote: »

One more thing, anyone else find it hard to believe the other Cylon Models on Cavil's side would be up for labotimising one of the revered Final Five?

I would guess that with the exception of Boomer, none of the other Cylons are aware that Ellen exists, or was even on the ship.

Hyzepher wrote: »

Everyone on Kobol - except maybe the Lords - are Cylons. All of which use resurrection to keep the race going. At some point 13 tribes have a change of heart and decide to be really alive and make their lives meaningful they need to live without resurrection and they all leave Kobol in search of a new beginning. 12 go together to find the new colonies and one goes its seperate way to discover Earth.

I would think that everyone on Kobol were "human", or what the colonials call human anyway. The 13th tribe left Kobol to find a home of their own. They developed resurrection as a means of survival, or were already able to resurrect when on Kobol, not sure which. If they developed resurrection on Kobol, perhaps this is why they were exiled? Maybe the other tribes though it was blasphemous? When they got to Earth, they stopped using that, and went with the traditional method of reproduction.

As I've said before, I still believe that the human form Cylons who went to Earth, may originally have been the same as the Colonial-humans (on Kobol), but the thousands of years living apart from each other, in different environments, have evolved the Colonial-humans, so they are now slightly different to the Cylon-humans. The five then give the mech-Cylons the ability to create skin-jobs, which are physiologically the same as the five, and not the Colonial-humans.

After that, they made Cylon robots, and the rest is history. The 5 were aware of something not being right, and decided to resurrect the resurrection technology, as it were.

Need to re-watch this, to see if I can get more from what Anders was saying, and what Ellen and John said.

What's puzzling me is, where did John/Cavil keep the Ellen body, and why did the other models never notice it? Presumably, there are bodies for the other 4 too, though without the resurrection hub, they can't now be used. I presume he kept the bodies, because he always wanted them to come back after they had "learned their lesson" about humanity.

Starbuck is still a mystery. Ellen resurrected on Cavil's ship, so surely if resurrection brought Starbuck back, she would be on his ship too, and not on Earth. Something else is at play, that we haven't seen yet. Possibly whatever force made up Head-Six, Head-Baltar, and now apparently a few others too.

DeVore

I asked this question months ago.... who played the music?

DeV.

tvnutz

don ramo wrote: »

i dont think the humans of earth are cylons, it never came out and stated that, all the 5 know is that they lived on earth and were resurected, and think they are cylons, but this still needs conformation, ressurection is only a transfer of conceiousness

The hundreds of bodies they found in different sites on earth were all Cylon.They also found some centurian leftovers as well which fits with the story that the 13th tribe were Cylon that could reproduce. They created their own centurian models,who eventually rebelled.

Vokes

DeVore wrote: »

I asked this question months ago.... who played the music?

DeV.

Twas the Galactica - Tigh heard it i nthe bulkheads.