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1 in 3 are creationists?

Mena

I was reading an article in today's Irish Times: "Thinking of Darwin", where the author claims 1 in 3 (based on a poll in Britain) believe the world was created by a god less then 10 000 years ago.

Thinking of Darwin wrote:

For millions of people, of course, God survived Darwin – though in a form that required profound redefinition and a rereading of the Bible as metaphor. A British poll this month found that half those surveyed – and views here are unlikely to differ much – believe evolution cannot explain the full complexity of life, and that a “designer” must have lent a hand. Fossil evidence of life three billion years ago notwithstanding, one in three believes God created the world in the past 10,000 years.

I find it immensely worrying that in this day and age, even when the behemoth that is the Catholic Church appears to have no issue with evolution, that still so many people still cling to this irrational position.

While it does bemuse me that seemingly intelligent people could hold this position, I for one don't begrudge them their, albeit misguided, beliefs. My concern really is the possible effects this could have on society moving forward, specifically if/when these beliefs start having more of an effect in politics and education.

What's the point of this post? I'm not sure... I guess the numbers indicated (with no source/backup it has to be said) really surprised me.

p.s. - no, I'm not going to post in that thread!

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[Deleted User]

Mad, isn't it? I read last year somewhere that 40% of Americans are Young-Earth creationists; so, the one in three figure doesn't really surprise me.

Asiaprod

I tend to disbelieve most of these polls. 1 in 3 is to high a figure.
According to a poll recently conducted by the Guardian News paper

Half of British adults do not believe in evolution, with at least 22% preferring the theories of creationism or intelligent design to explain how the world came about, according to a survey.
The poll found that 25% of Britons believe Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is "definitely true", with another quarter saying it is "probably true". Half of the 2,060 people questioned were either strongly opposed to the theory or confused about it.
The Rescuing Darwin survey, published to coincide with the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth and the 150th anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of *Species, found that around 10% of people chose young Earth creationism – the belief that God created the world some time in the last 10,000 years – over evolution.
About 12% preferred intelligent design, the idea that evolution alone is not enough to explain the structures of living organisms. The remainder were unsure, often mixing evolution, intelligent design and creationism together. The survey was conducted by the polling agency ComRes on behalf of the Theos thinktank.

ChocolateSauce

One in three is a high figure. In the US, 25% is a more realistic number. Turkey also has a very high rate of creationism belief. But still, IMO a figure of 5% or more is dangerously high.

Dades

I wouldn't put any truck in those numbers, tbh. It's amazing what stats you can get with well thought out questions.

5uspect

Q. Do you accept the theory of Evolution?

A. No

Conclusion: Creationist

TBH I don't think your average punter ever really considered it.

[Deleted User]

Here's an interesting poll. Although it doesn't specify what religious convictions the 25% who don't believe in evolution hold. But, one can only assume that they're creationists (although I wouldn't say it as fact, just mere speculation).

Bougeoir

i'm in UCD and keep finding those stupid pamphlets dismissing Evolution and saying it's all wrong and all this Creationist shïte! So I keep ripping them up and putting them in the trash! I find it amusing how they're trying to warp educated minds! :P

Overblood

Bougeoir wrote: »

i'm in UCD and keep finding those stupid pamphlets dismissing Evolution and saying it's all wrong and all this Creationist shïte! So I keep ripping them up and putting them in the trash! I find it amusing how they're trying to warp educated minds! :P

Can you get one and scan it up so we can see it? And maybe laugh at it?

Bougeoir

Overblood wrote: »

Can you get one and scan it up so we can see it? And maybe laugh at it?

Well the next one I encounter, i will definitely post up for youse. They had these others ones with funny cartoons with a man on one side of a canyon and God on the other and this big bridge of a cross acts as a bridge between both sides. Thought it was rather amusing considering the gap depicted wasn't exactly wide or anything!

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

I for one don't begrudge them their, albeit misguided, beliefs. My concern really is the possible effects this could have on society moving forward, specifically if/when these beliefs start having more of an effect in politics and education.

What's the point of this post? I'm not sure... I guess the numbers indicated (with no source/backup it has to be said) really surprised me.

I'm astounded that the number could be so high. I've never, to my knowledge, met a creationist who was not a Northern Ireland evangelical.

However, such views are not having an effect on politics and education now. Why do you expect that to change? With the flurry of publicity about Darwin this year, I expect his theories will gain wider agreement.

Bougeoir wrote: »

i'm in UCD and keep finding those stupid pamphlets dismissing Evolution and saying it's all wrong and all this Creationist shïte! So I keep ripping them up and putting them in the trash! I find it amusing how they're trying to warp educated minds! :P

Educated minds? In UCD? Surely not. :pac:

ChocolateSauce

Bougeoir wrote: »

i'm in UCD and keep finding those stupid pamphlets dismissing Evolution and saying it's all wrong and all this Creationist shïte! So I keep ripping them up and putting them in the trash! I find it amusing how they're trying to warp educated minds! :P

I haven't seen them...but there are some grade A looneys in UCD to be sure.

Dades and Asiaprod, I do agree that many polls are skewed and some downright crap (the AOL pre-election polls predicted a McCain win in every state!), but many polls have consistently shown that in the US approximately 25% of people believe the bible is literally true, and this almost universally precludes the the chance that any of them would believe evolution. Even with a 10% margin of error, which is large, that's still forty-five million Americans. That's a scary number of people to be as ignorant as cave men in a country armed to the teeth with guns, nuclear weapons and vast sums of money.

Bougeoir

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I haven't seen them...but there are some grade A looneys in UCD to be sure.

You know the notice boards in the Arts Block? I keep finding them the odd time pinned to them. They're from some Bible Christian Centre in Dún Laoghaire or sth.

ChocolateSauce

Bougeoir wrote: »

You know the notice boards in the Arts Block? I keep finding them the odd time pinned to them. They're from some Bible Christian Centre in Dún Laoghaire or sth.

I'm afraid I'm rarely in the arts block, usually only for debate. But I'll keep an eye out.

MrPudding

Mena wrote: »

I was reading an article in today's Irish Times: "Thinking of Darwin", where the author claims 1 in 3 (based on a poll in Britain) believe the world was created by a god less then 10 000 years ago.

Wow, I had no idea that mental illness was quite so prevalent.

MrP

Wacker

I worked in a newsagent in Dun Laoghaire for years while in college. I served a woman once in my usual charming manner, and she commented that I seemed very smart for such work. I told her that I was just doing it to pay the bills while in college, and when asked I told her that I did Philosophy and Politics (yes, I was a feckin' Arts student!). She asked if Philosophy had turned me away from God, and I replied that I didn't need to go to college for that, having been an atheist since I was old enough to think for myself. She then gave me a pamphlet about how much God loves me! I laughed it off and said nothing at the time, but I got really angry about how condescending it was shortly afterwards.
Of course, if I were there now, I would have talked her into atheism.

Edit: I had intended to quote Bougeoir's post here about there being a creationist group in Dun Laoghaire, but I screwed up somehow. Just to explain why I quoted this story.

RHRN

Think thats bad?
I was reading New Scientist and it said 20% of Americans still believe the sun moves around the earth.

As with all surveys, it could be wrong, but still.... anywhere close to that is shocking.

Húrin

Wacker wrote: »

I was just doing it to pay the bills while in college, and when asked I told her that I did Philosophy and Politics (yes, I was a feckin' Arts student!). She asked if Philosophy had turned me away from God, and I replied that I didn't need to go to college for that, having been an atheist since I was old enough to think for myself.

this kind of anti-education attitude is one that I have occasionally experienced, and makes Christians in general look bad.

Mena

Húrin wrote: »

I'm astounded that the number could be so high. I've never, to my knowledge, met a creationist who was not a Northern Ireland evangelical.

However, such views are not having an effect on politics and education now. Why do you expect that to change? With the flurry of publicity about Darwin this year, I expect his theories will gain wider agreement.

It's the pessimist in me. More and more schools (in the UK) seem to be offering up creationism as a valid viewpoint, some even with government support. It won't surprise me when we see similar shenanigans this side.

MrPudding

Mena wrote: »

It's the pessimist in me. More and more schools (in the UK) seem to be offering up creationism as a valid viewpoint, some even with government support. It won't surprise me when we see similar shenanigans this side.

My daughter was learning about Noah's Ark the other day. I was concerned to hear that the headmistress apparently said that it was a true story and happened as the bible tells it. I will have to keep an eye on that. It is a school that calls itself "broadly christian" and does not really make a big deal of religion, so I was surprised when my daughter told me how the Noah story was portrayed.

On the plus side, it caused my daughter to ask questions about the validity of the story, like how 2 of each animal could reproduce, without problems, to repopulate the earth. I was very proud, from these small self realised doubts atheist are born.

MrP

Galvasean

To paraphrase David Attenborough:

"Teaching creationism alongside evolution is like saying two plus two equals four, or five if that's what you believe."

Sums it up prefectly IMO.

I can't stand hearing tripe like 'creationism should be taught too for balance'. Yeah, while we're at it lets teach flat earth theory alongside round earth theory, holocost denial alongside history, etc.

kowloon

RHRN wrote: »

Think thats bad?
I was reading New Scientist and it said 20% of Americans still believe the sun moves around the earth.

As with all surveys, it could be wrong, but still.... anywhere close to that is shocking.

And quite a lot believe that the world used to be in black and white, it's just lack of education, not a concious decision to believe the sun rotated around the earth. Young earth creationism on the other hand is regulary the result of choice. That's what worries me.

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

It's the pessimist in me. More and more schools (in the UK) seem to be offering up creationism as a valid viewpoint, some even with government support. It won't surprise me when we see similar shenanigans this side.

Got a source? If this is the case, do you think that such events are anomalous? Perhaps they are only being reported now, because the American right wing has politicised the issue? Perhaps there have always beena few off-the-wall teachers promoting YEC.

Or do you think it could be due to postmodern culture stretching 'tolerance' too far?

Mena

Húrin wrote: »

Got a source? If this is the case, do you think that such events are anomalous? Perhaps they are only being reported now, because the American right wing has politicised the issue? Perhaps there have always beena few off-the-wall teachers promoting YEC.

Or do you think it could be due to postmodern culture stretching 'tolerance' too far?

My fears grew when I read this article in the Independant (UK) some time ago:

The Independant wrote:

Mr Blair, said to be the most religious Prime Minister since Gladstone, has backed the millionaire car dealer Sir Peter Vardy in his attempt to take over seven comprehensives and turn them into Christian Academies promoting Old Testament views of the world's creation. This includes the claim that it was made in six days, 10,000 years ago. Two of Sir Peter's schools are open already, in Gateshead and Middlesbrough, and a third is under construction in Doncaster.

Mr Blair, a committed Christian, has presided over an extraordinary growth in the number of faith schools, with 80 new Church of England secondaries now running or in the pipeline. He personally opened King's Academy in Middlesbrough, run by Sir Peter, an Evangelical Christian. When Emmanuel College in Gateshead, the first Vardy school, came under attack for teaching creationism, Mr Blair sent Andrew Adonis, one of his most senior policy advisers, to smooth the issue over.

Nigel McQuoid, principal at King's Academy and director of schools at the newly created Emmanuel Schools Foundation (covering all the Vardy colleges), has said: "Clearly, schools are required to teach evolutionary theory ... Clearly, also, schools should teach the creation theory as literally depicted in Genesis. Ultimately, both creation and evolution are faith positions." ... Martin Rogers from the Education Network, an education think-tank, said there was nothing wrong with the principle of academies, and that large investment in struggling schools should be applauded. But the lack of accountability was a big concern. "For a very small sum of money ... you can peddle the most appalling garbage," he said.

Can't find the article online any more, original source was here. It's probably much ado about nothing but in all honesty, one school teaching this garbage is a step too far in my view. As for stretching tolerance too far, when it comes to teaching young, impressionable children, then yes, I would say it is.Something else I've been mulling over in my head for a long time is the whole "theory" debacle. To a non-scientist, a theory is just that, a theory, what someone thinks happened. In science however it is so much more, and I wonder would objections to the theory of evolution be as common were it not referred to as a theory. It's something I often here from the less well informed... "but it's only a theory..."

What would be simpler, teaching the population of the world what a theory really is or referring to scientific theories by some other name...?

I'm rambling now

Mickeroo

Mena wrote: »

Something else I've been mulling over in my head for a long time is the whole "theory" debacle. To a non-scientist, a theory is just that, a theory, what someone thinks happened. In science however it is so much more, and I wonder would objections to the theory of evolution be as common were it not referred to as a theory. It's something I often here from the less well informed... "but it's only a theory..."

What would be simpler, teaching the population of the world what a theory really is or referring to scientific theories by some other name...?

I'm rambling now

not at all,you speak the truth. Nothing boils my blood more than the "it's only a theory" defence. When someone says that i tend to lose respect for them....

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

My fears grew when I read this article in the Independant (UK) some time ago:

Can't find the article online any more, original source was here. It's probably much ado about nothing but in all honesty, one school teaching this garbage is a step too far in my view. As for stretching tolerance too far, when it comes to teaching young, impressionable children, then yes, I would say it is.Something else I've been mulling over in my head for a long time is the whole "theory" debacle. To a non-scientist, a theory is just that, a theory, what someone thinks happened. In science however it is so much more, and I wonder would objections to the theory of evolution be as common were it not referred to as a theory. It's something I often here from the less well informed... "but it's only a theory..."

What would be simpler, teaching the population of the world what a theory really is or referring to scientific theories by some other name...?

I'm rambling now

Make no mistake, I'm on your side on this one. Young earth creationism should not be taught as a literal, scientific account of the origin of the world.

I just don't see creationism as the earth-shattering political threat that many other people do. Pretty much everyone I know dismisses it as nonsense.

I also find it very annoying that Tony Blair is paraded as the UK's "most religious/Christian Prime minister in 100 years". Mainly on account of my opinion that if there was ever a human embodiment of compulsive dishonesty, it's him.

Mickeroo wrote: »

not at all,you speak the truth. Nothing boils my blood more than the "it's only a theory" defence. When someone says that i tend to lose respect for them....

Yes, I don't think that such people really understand what they are saying. Have you ever met a young earth creationist?

Mickeroo

Húrin wrote: »

Yes, I don't think that such people really understand what they are saying. Have you ever met a young earth creationist?

It's a term I've only come across in the past couple of weeks on here and in a few articles i read. Is it an official movement in itself or just a general term who believe that genesis is literal? If it's the latter then yes I have, I was very good friends with them actually,needless to say we didn't talk about religion to often

Mickeroo

Húrin wrote: »

Make no mistake, I'm on your side on this one. Young earth creationism should not be taught as a literal, scientific account of the origin of the world.

I just don't see creationism as the earth-shattering political threat that many other people do. Pretty much everyone I know dismisses it as nonsense.

I see your point there, I would certainly agree. I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in a creator it's the flat out denial of cold hard facts i have a problem with.

AtomicHorror

Bougeoir wrote: »

You know the notice boards in the Arts Block? I keep finding them the odd time pinned to them. They're from some Bible Christian Centre in Dún Laoghaire or sth.

Do your bit for Darwin. Destroy the flyer.

Mena

Just as a follow up to this, it appears our neighbours up North and having a little furore over the evolution/creationism (non) debate.

DUP assembly member Mervyn Storey has called for a creationist display to challenge an evolution theory/Darwin series The Ulster Museum is running to mark the celebrations.

Source

The Guardian.co.uk wrote:

The Ulster Museum in Belfast faces a legal challenge unless it stages a creationist exhibition as a counter to its forthcoming series on Charles Darwin, a Democratic Unionist member of the Northern Ireland assembly warned today.

Forty-eight hours after the DUP's Northern Ireland environment minister, Sammy Wilson, railed against the idea that climate change is man-made, his party colleague Mervyn Storey has threatened legal action against the museum over its promotion of Darwin's theory of evolution.

The North Antrim DUP assembly member called this morning for an "alternative exhibition" promoting creationism to be staged alongside one planned for the Ulster Museum in Belfast this year. Storey, a born-again Christian advocate of creationism and so-called intelligent design, said that as the museum in Belfast's university district was publicly funded it should be subject to the province's equality legislation.

Speaking to the Guardian at Stormont, he said: "In the past, when I have written to the museum about necessity to show the public an alternative to Darwin's theory (and let's stress it is still only a theory), they have been quite dismissive.

"They could be subject to a legal challenge under equality legislation within Northern Ireland if they chose to ignore alternative views that many people here in the Province believe in," he said.

He also described Charles Darwin as a "racist" over his description of aboriginal peoples in his other classic tome The Descent of Man. "In this politically correct society we live in today, if Darwin expressed those views about other peoples of the world now he would not be put on any pedestal."

Asked if humans evolved from monkeys, Storey said: "Certainly not, and there are plenty of other people in this society who don't believe it either."
The chairman of the education committee at the Northern Ireland Assembly said: "I am not against the museum or anywhere else promoting Darwin's theory, but I think it would be in the public's interest to give them an alternative theory as well.

"We are currently because of the anniversary being bombarded with Darwin's theory but there are others in the scientific world who question that thesis and their voices should be heard in publicly funded institutions like the museum."

Storey confirmed he has written to the National Trust complaining about information on display around Ireland's most famous landmark, the Giant's Causeway in his North Antrim constituency. The DUP assembly member said he had objected to notices informing the public that the rock formation was about 550m years old. Storey believes in the literal truth of the Bible and that the earth was created only several thousand years before Christ's birth.

The former school teacher is also campaigning to have creationism and intelligent design theory taught in Northern Ireland's schools. However the Sinn Fein education minister, Catriona Ruane, insisted they would not form any part of the schools' curriculum.

The backbone of the DUP – the largest party in the Stormont assembly – is made up of evangelical Christians, many of whom have been members of Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian church. It has left the more secular wing of the party to have to deal with maverick statements from the DUP evangelicals.

Last year Iris Robinson, a DUP MP and wife of Northern Ireland's first minister, caused controversy when she condemned homosexuality as an "abomination" that could be "cured" with psychiatry. Her remarks are the subject of a police investigation after complaints that the comments allegedly incited hatred against the local gay community.

Earlier this month, Wilson used his powers to ban a government-paid climate change TV advertisement. Wilson, a climate-change sceptic, claimed the ad was "insidious New Labour propaganda."

It's certainly getting far too close to home for my comfort. I wonder how this will pan out...?

sink

Mena wrote: »

It's certainly getting far too close to home for my comfort. I wonder how this will pan out...?

To put a positive spin on it. Hopefully the moderate DUP voters will be alarmed and not vote in the extremely conservative evangelicals of their party next election. I don't know how likely this is as I am not familiar with too many DUP voters.

I have no fear, this legal challenge will not stand a chance in any court.