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The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife

davymoore

A challenge for you ...

Some of you may have seen THIS THREAD . Well from the general comments it seems that we have varied tastes when it comes to hunting knives in Ireland. From my own experiences I have found that knife styles vary from country to country and climate to climate. Take your typical Bowie knife it's a style well liked in the Western World but not so popular in Japan or the East where the Tanto or kukri are more in favour also if you look at the Scandinavians they have their own take on knife making.

Which brings me to this point and question. Why don't we have our own knife? I mean a knife that is the ultimate Irish hunting knife, one designed for our climate, that reflects our heritage. A knife that is a real User and a knife that you would be proud to carry and showcase as "The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife"

Ok so a proposal then ...

I suggest that YOU the Hunters, Users, design the ultimate knife.

I will help by asking a series of questions regarding shape, style, material etc. We could vote on each section or question finally narrowing the whole thing down to the final design. Once the design has been voted on and approved I will build the knife.

I will document the build and post a photo diary here.

Now comes the nice part.....

Each person who participates in the design thread is entered into a Raffle. I will draw a name from a hat at the end of the build and the winner will receive the original knife.

Are you guys up for this ?

If so let me know by reply to this thread

Some rules will obviously have to apply and if we are to go ahead with this I'll clarify these later. First thing though is to see if there is enough interest in the build and whether it's worth bothering with.

So .... over to you

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IRLConor

davymoore wrote: »

I would like to move on to step 2 but I can't end the blimmin Poll as it won't time out till Friday Morning. Also I cant add a second poll. I am hoping that when the current poll eventually times out that I can add another at that point.

I can edit the poll for you. Let me know what you want it to say and the options you want and I'll do it.

Mellor

Haha Davy, quite a collection you've brought along.

I'm still leaning towards a drop point. Slightly stubby proportions. With a full tang. With slight finger guard. And slight curve. (similar to the pattern 3 below the words "patterns 32")

macadam

Hi Davy,

Your blinding us with blade types never realised there were so many until I seen them all like that .

My choice would be the same as Mellor's drop point , full tang , finger guard , with the full tang you can get more filing design to the handle,
but not too thick of blade if poss.

This is really heating up now, "keep her lit boys"

Offy

Great post. What metal are you planing to use for the blade? What treatment?

J.R.

Some selection

I would go for no:3 under the words Pattern 4!

davymoore

Offy what do you suggest ? Why ?

Mellor

Offy wrote: »

Great post. What metal are you planing to use for the blade? What treatment?

To be discussed and decided
Although i imagine Davy has the most imput here

davymoore

IRLConor

Thankyou so much for the offer of help

I'll be in touch via PM if that's ok

Davy

davymoore

Ok as discussed earlier

The patterns above are merely suggestions, start sketching, you thought this was going to be easy didn't you:D......... time to start thinking

So many bridges to cross yet

I've been doing this for years and if it was quite so simple to design the "ultimate" then, I wouldn't have started the thread in the first place.

Good luck and welcome to my world

One more word the handle needs to be exactly 5" long ... how do I know this ... Trust me I know

Davy

Grizzly 45

Here's two ideas I have on this.Excuse my Godawful drawings.Tech Drawing in school was never my forte.:o
Top is an idea I had for a Ring index finger grip.In it's size it could be either lockback or one piece.The blade is a common spear point with a clip.
The Grip material,well whatever you are having yourself.I would like somthing like Neoprene or Micrata.
Bottom one is what I can find is the most common looking blade design thru Irish historical records,and woodcuts etc.The only modern option I have added is the rasp/or rope cutter/saw on the bottom of the blade. It is a hidden tang design,So a stacked leather washer,butt cap handle is possible ,or a one piece of exotic,wood,bone handle is possible too.
I have left the handle length measurements out,as one thing with a "custom" knife is...it must fit your hand and grip.some of us have huge hams[like me] or dainty little hands,so length is important.
Anyways,a few more designs coming along soon...and hopefully better to look at.:)

Mellor

The blade shape are similir to one i'm drawing up Grizzley.
One question, what is that wedge shape to the front upper edge of the blade.

Edit, design attached

4"/100mm drop blade, 30mm at widest
115mm handle
Handle to be modern material like micarta or krayton for durability.
For if wooden, Holly to be used. (holly is a native hardwood, and was also material of choice for a old irish weapon)

lordarpad

@mellor: i see your point about weight, but the strength is illusory. I do swordfighting and the strains on a swordblade are _a lot_ higher than what ever comes on a knife (consider force of impact of sword against sword and the length of the lever). I have also ween swords break and they don't usually break at the tang.

lordarpad

Since we ahve been talking about it, here is a Sax:

I really like that idea.

Grizzly 45

Mellor wrote: »

The blade shape are similir to one i'm drawing up Grizzley.
One question, what is that wedge shape to the front upper edge of the blade.

It's a clip,or false edge.By rights the blade design is a cross between a wee hawk and spearpoint.

Mellor

lordarpad wrote: »

@mellor: i see your point about weight, but the strength is illusory. I do swordfighting and the strains on a swordblade are _a lot_ higher than what ever comes on a knife (consider force of impact of sword against sword and the length of the lever). I have also ween swords break and they don't usually break at the tang.

Thats was my point exactly, the extra weight in the handle isn't required, but the having the knife slightly heavier and the centre of gravity closer to the handle centre makes it feel like there is a hidden quaility.

It also provides the handle with a level of protection against wear and tear.

lordarpad

@mellor: what you are drawing is a nice modern knife, apart from the holly which I seriously like, what makes it Irish?

I finally found a blade the shape that I think of as a seax:

Sadly I see a bit of a problem turning this into a modern knife

jwshooter

pattern 32 second from the bottom looks a good shape ,not too long and going to a nice point .

davymoore

Let's start the debate between Full Tang and Hidden Tang

I want to start off by dispelling a myth

First of all let me say that Lordapard is correct in saying that there is very little difference in the strength of these handles. But and it's a big But that is generally provided that the hidden tang has been forged to shape and not simply machined out.

Most cheap off the shelf blades will have been machined or stamped from a sheet of steel prior to grinding. This simple mass manufacturing error has been the primary cause behind the Myth that Hidden tang blades are weaker and more likely to break at The Ricasso (The Ricasso is the point on a knife where Blade Meets Handle, More on this later) and if hidden tang knife is built this way then it is a very likely assumption to make.

However good knifemakers can get over this hurdle by shaping the tang by forging it to shape. Simply put, the Bar of flat steel is heated up and hammered on its edges until the tang is formed. Forging the steel in this way actually bulks up the ricasso and tang thus eliminating the likelyhood of breaking . It has been suggested in fact that a knife made in this Fashion is even stronger at the ricasso area because of this method.

See diag. below

So hopefully by eliminating this myth you will now be able to Vote on this particular secton of the build based on Aesthetics alone.

I think you should see now why I earlier suggested a Hidden Tang. It was simply to allow us more choices and greater control over the design elements of the handle itself and therefore allowing us to get more Irish.

That being said this topic is open to debate and if you guys want either a Full Tang or a Hidden Tang it's up to you.

Voting will begin hopefully tomorrow but feel free to put forward your arguments for each case.

Regards

Davy

jwshooter

were you saying the blade can be made tin er smaller and the knife is lighter
along the lines of a trog

davymoore

Hidden tang knives can be lighter than Full Tang but this is not always a good assumption to make.

Full tang knives can also be lightened by removing some of the stock from the handle area. either by drilling extra holes in the handle or by tapering the sides of the handle (Taper Tang)

See diag.

Trog ?? Sorry not familiar with this

Offy

davymoore wrote: »

Offy what do you suggest ? Why ?

Id suggest Damascus steel with a little twist. The steel has to be strong and flexible. Id love to see the blade made using the Damascus technique, start with about 0.5% carbon and slowly add more carbon in stages while forging the blade bringing the carbon content up to about 2%. This would bond and harden the wire as its being folded into the blade. Once the blade has being forged I'd apply a thin layer of chromium carbide to the cutting edge. That would give a solid blade with some malleability and a hardened edge that would hold its sharpness. The Damascus effect would give it a touch of class. Mount that in a full tang and you have something that looks great and will last.

davymoore

Tanks for the offer of making the Damascus Offy you are very kind indeed.
I am a knifemaker and not a bladesmith but would love to work with some of that steel. What hardness are you able to achieve via your heat treating ? Were tou thinking of adding nickel or stainless also to help combat the climate here

Davy

Mellor

lordarpad wrote: »

@mellor: what you are drawing is a nice modern knife, apart from the holly which I seriously like, what makes it Irish?

I finally found a blade the shape that I think of as a seax:

There is nothing fundamentally Irish about the shape. I think you may have missed my point earlier. The Goal is a Hunting knife. The ultimate irish hunting knife. Even if an uniquely irish knife shape existed, if may not lend its self well to hunting.

Take the Seax you posted for example. The Seax was common accross europe, Ireland, UK and scandinavia mostly. So its not uniquely irish. Nor was it a hunting knife. The one you posted was a broken-back seax, which was more common to UK and ireland I believe.

In my opinion, and its only mine. We should design the best blade possible, for all situations presented to the irish hunter (this is how all other cultural hunting knifes came about after all), and put our irish flair into the handle, local materials were possible (and suitable) etc

davymoore

Mellor I think you are on to something here and it is something important. While I like to look back at the Seax and marvel at the craft it took to make it let alone the guts to use it, I think we need to think about a modern useable knife with a definite sense of Irishness to the aesthetics.

Davy

davymoore

Anyway it's Thursday night and I'm off out for a pint of Modern Irish Black Stuff. You guys be nice to each other while I'm away.

Davy

jwshooter

as its a hunting knife we should make it for our intended quarrie and the field dressing or it .

from a trout to a master red stag and every thing in between .

i have used a trog davy there light easy sharpen and simple .

IRLConor

Poll changed to the next question.

macadam

Irlconor,

Poll is not letting me vote,dont mean to go off topic, but wife said she heard on the local radio news, a guy from monaghan was given a jail sentence for carrying an offensive weapon in the glove compartment of his car , it was an army knife, anyone else come across this news item .

Mods delete , or shift as reqd.

IRLConor

OK, hold on, I'll try something. I'm going to lock this thread, create a new poll thread with the questions, move the posts over to the new thread and then delete this one.

It'll take me a minute or two, hold on.

IRLConor

OK, my fiddling with it is finished. Have another go.