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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

skelliser

So we're gonna get a second referendum on the lisbon treaty!
Hooray for democracy!

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Comments

Donald-Duck

Riddle101 wrote: »

I don't think i i'll vote this time, I reluctantly voted last time and all it got was 'ah we're doing it again' so no. This is a great time for me to start my Chaos Theory and start ruining this establishment in order to bring the world to into a state of Anarchy, Viva La Joker!!:D

Does that mean your ugly?

tolosenc

whatisayis wrote: »

One of the basic principles of Democracy is 'one person, one vote'. This situation is more like an authoritarian regime.

So, by simple maths, should a country with x number of people not have a voting power proportionate to that number?

You're contradicting yourself...

Riddle101

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Does that mean your ugly?

Ugly from the inside yes

Ckal

whatisayis wrote: »

One of the basic principles of Democracy is 'one person, one vote'. This situation is more like an authoritarian regime where the democratic rules have now been changed to "one person, as many votes as it takes until you agree with us". No need to worry though, if the Treaty is passed our population is so small that the vote of the Irish people will continue to be of no consequence.

obl wrote: »

So, by simple maths, should a country with x number of people not have a voting power proportionate to that number?

You're contradicting yourself...

I think what the poster meant was that nobody will listen to our vote either way because we aren't a super power, like Germany, France and the UK. We are merely a pawn in the EU's game. Nothing more.

passive

Ckal wrote: »

We are merely a pawn in the EU's game.

I do not think that means what you think it means... You do know we are the EU, right?

KnifeWRENCH

I'm never going to read 750+ posts. All I'll say is that people shouldn't make up their minds on this until they read the new proposals.
I voted NO last time but at the moment I'm "United States of whateva" (I disapprove of the lack of Atari Jaguar! :mad:)

An Fear Aniar

Donald-Duck wrote: »

Keyword "Most". Again, read posts correctly.

Bull**** mate. You said (and read it correctly):

Donald-Duck wrote: »

You still do not understand, they just simply do not have referendums. On anything.

So you're either a liar or an idiot, or both.

.

Donald-Duck

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Bull**** mate. You said (and read it correctly):

So you're either a liar or an idiot, or both.

.

Read the post you quoted me on before that.

.

Donald-Duck

Donald-Duck wrote: »

You really have no clue, you should read up on how voting works in some of them countries. They don't have referendums, ever. It is decided that whoever is voted into Government will make the correct decision.

.

See, I used the word "some" not all. So you are the idiot I take it

Darragh29

Can the "yes" side and the "no" side give their opinions on this... I posted this comment earlier and would like to know whether I have the right take on this...

As I understand it, if we ratify the Lisbon Treaty and after that ratification, where the EU has a competence, we will never be asked for an opinion by way of a referendum in Ireland again...

kingtut

The government didn't get the yes result that they wanted last time so they want us to vote again?? Gees just get the message! The majority voted no for a reason! Stop making us vote again when you are not happy with the outcome. If the majority vote no again does it mean they will keep getting us to vote until the majority choose yes??

Ok rant over....

Keep the NO vote strong!! Vote NO for Lisbon!!

anonymous_joe

kingtut wrote: »

The government didn't get the yes result that they wanted last time so they want us to vote again?? Gees just get the message! The majority voted no for a reason! Stop making us vote again when you are not happy with the outcome. If the majority vote no again does it mean they will keep getting us to vote until the majority choose yes??

Ok rant over....

Keep the NO vote strong!! Vote NO for Lisbon!!

What's the reason?

heyjude

humanji wrote: »

Ok people, I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but 28% of the population voted no. And a portion of that admitted to not voting on what was actually in the treaty. How is following the will of an ill-informed minority democratic? Think about it. If nobody except for 2 people actually managed to vote last time, and they voted yes because they thought it was about ice-cream, would you honestly want to honour that vote?

Remind me again, what % of the population voted for the current government in the last general election ? I assume it was something like 46% of the 66% or so that voted, so that would be about 30% of the population ! But hey, maybe that 30% were misinformed, so lets save money by having a general election on the same day as the referendum, because without the support of a majority of the population the election result isn't to be taken seriously, right ?:rolleyes:

Donald-Duck

heyjude wrote: »

Remind me again, what % of the population voted for the current government in the last general election ? I assume it was something like 46% of the 66% or so that voted, so that would be about 30% of the population ! But hey, maybe that 30% were misinformed, so lets save money by having a general election on the same day as the referendum, because without the support of a majority of the population the election result isn't to be taken seriously, right ?:rolleyes:

There is more than 2 choices in the general election. Nice try at a bad anology though

K-9

Darragh29 wrote: »

Can the "yes" side and the "no" side give their opinions on this... I posted this comment earlier and would like to know whether I have the right take on this...

As I understand it, if we ratify the Lisbon Treaty and after that ratification, where the EU has a competence, we will never be asked for an opinion by way of a referendum in Ireland again...

YEP, that's why there is Referenda here, to transfer powers to the EU.

Otherwise we wouldn't need EU Referenda!

That is why you are voting and why there has been EU Referenda here since the Crotty case.

Extremely important That does not mean there will never be an EU Referedum again in Ireland as some seem to be misconstruing that as. Any future EU Treaties that require changes to our Constitution, such as transfer of powers, will require a Referendum.

Nothing to see here, move on!

PS. We are the exception in this case, not the norm!

metalfest

a friend of mine told me around the time of the first lisbon referendum that all it is is an opinion of the people.
basically that even if everyone voted no, the taoiseach could decide that ireland supports it?
is that true?

K-9

metalfest wrote: »

a friend of mine told me around the time of the first lisbon referendum that all it is is an opinion of the people.
basically that even if everyone voted no, the taoiseach could decide that ireland supports it?
is that true?

NOPE, That is why you are voting again.

If the Taoiseach decided you would not be voting again.

Why do I bother?

metalfest

Seanies32 wrote: »

NOPE, That is why you are voting again.

If the Taoiseach decided you would not be voting again.

Why do I bother?

ok, thanks for clearing that up,

Run_to_da_hills

If Brian Cowen saw the poll at the top of this page he would need a change of underwear.

skelliser

Tell me how does a more "streamlined and efficient" commission work with 27 commissioners?!

dresden8

metalfest wrote: »

a friend of mine told me around the time of the first lisbon referendum that all it is is an opinion of the people.
basically that even if everyone voted no, the taoiseach could decide that ireland supports it?
is that true?

Not exactly.

But he does get to make you vote again until it is passed.

Just slightly different.

ben bedlam

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If Brian Cowen saw the poll at the top of this page he would need a change of underwear.

From here and there, whatever people think of Lisbon, it seems to me that NO ONE has changed their opinions since June. Lisbon 2 will go the way of Lisbon 1, so its just a matter of time until we get Lisbon 3. Pretty cynical of the EU though, "vote yes for Lisbon and we will give you your assurances later". We would still be voting on the EXACT SAME DOCUMENT with the EXACT SAME CLAUSES therein.

The only "poll" where the yes vote will be in a majority is in the Irish Times.

thebman

ben bedlam wrote: »

From here and there, whatever people think of Lisbon, it seems to me that NO ONE has changed their opinions since June. Lisbon 2 will go the way of Lisbon 1, so its just a matter of time until we get Lisbon 3. Pretty cynical of the EU though, "vote yes for Lisbon and we will give you your assurances later". We would still be voting on the EXACT SAME DOCUMENT with the EXACT SAME CLAUSES therein.

The only "poll" where the yes vote will be in a majority is in the Irish Times.

The government have plenty of time to change peoples opinions.

I don't have much of a problem with Lisbon but I do have a problem with the way the government is going about trying to get it passed.

Not just the revote but the change in legislation so both sides of the campaign don't have to get equal TV coverage is a joke IMO. That is basically going to destroy any chance democracy had in this country and is something I'd expect from a country with a dicatator in charge, not an elected official.

We need to get rid of FF but I won't let that change how I'll vote on this treaty given the two things aren't really related. I would be more of the opinion that the less power these fools have the better TBH.

ejmaztec

brim4brim wrote: »

The government have plenty of time to change peoples opinions.

I don't have much of a problem with Lisbon but I do have a problem with the way the government is going about trying to get it passed.

Not just the revote but the change in legislation so both sides of the campaign don't have to get equal TV coverage is a joke IMO. That is basically going to destroy any chance democracy had in this country and is something I'd expect from a country with a dicatator in charge, not an elected official.

We need to get rid of FF but I won't let that change how I'll vote on this treaty given the two things aren't really related. I would be more of the opinion that the less power these fools have the better TBH.

I think that in view of the incompetency of most of the Dail inbreds, irrespective of their party politics, Brussels should run Ireland completely. The politicians here are simply not up to the job. None of them seem to have the capability of doing the job for which they've been elected.

With Brian Lenihan admitting that they didn't know about the down-turn until July is frightening to say the least. The world and his father knew a hell of a long time before then that everything was going down the crapper.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-we-didnt-notice-the-downturn-1574408.html

Terry

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Bull**** mate. You said (and read it correctly):

So you're either a liar or an idiot, or both.

.

Donald-Duck wrote: »

See, I used the word "some" not all. So you are the idiot I take it

Both banned.

Run_to_da_hills

brim4brim wrote: »

The government have plenty of time to change peoples opinions. .

Such as trying to ban a certain Roman Catholic newspaper.

brim4brim wrote: »

I don't have much of a problem with Lisbon but I do have a problem with the way the government is going about trying to get it passed..

The whole thing just stinks of EU pressure.

brim4brim wrote: »

Not just the revote but the change in legislation so both sides of the campaign don't have to get equal TV coverage is a joke IMO. That is basically going to destroy any chance democracy had in this country and is something I'd expect from a country with a dictator in charge, not an elected official..

They should ban canvassing altogether from the Media, I can foresee millions being injected into the Yes campaign from EU sources outside of Ireland and there will be a lot more effort put into it this time round. Likewise I can see an aggressive NO campaign, with a lot of unanimous posters and fliers being distributed.

brim4brim wrote: »

We need to get rid of FF but I won't let that change how I'll vote on this treaty given the two things aren't really related. I would be more of the opinion that the less power these fools have the better TBH.

Willl make no difference, the opposition are all bedfellows in on this, IE fat European Parlament pay cheques and huge EU gravy train pensions, they will loose too much if they opted out for a NO clause. Sinn Fein and a few of the independents are the only ones that are sticking up for the people.

metalfest

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Likewise I can see an aggressive NO campaign, with a lot of unanimous posters and fliers being distributed

i remember prior to Lisbon 1, I was walking through cork city, i received a Libertas hat, 2 cups, dozens of fliers and planty of pens,
along with documentation of what the treaty stated,

but there was an air of unease around the people promoting the NO campaign...

the-island-man

Here are two reasons i would vote NO and other people can say what they like:
1) E.U is not fully democratic
2) We have lost a lot of sovereignty by changing years ago from the E.E.C to the E.U in my opinion

1) The E.U has three main bodies the commission, the council of ministers and the E.U parliment! We get to vote in members of one of these bodies, the E.U parliment! The others get appointed by our goverment, that is not direct democracy and should not be the case! I watched Dick Roche during and after the last referendum and i felt that he spoke with contempt for the irish people and i feel if he had to answer to us the irish citizens he would not be so quick to forget about us and care more about his european pals!

2) I watched Brian Lenihan say that "Irelands neutrality and sovereignty will be fully intact after this treaty", thats a load of bull**** i think fishermen right along the west coast who are been dictated to with quotas not from their own state but by the European Union would disagree. Another example of the loss of sovereignty could be seen a few weeks ago! Brian Lenihan came on the news telling irish consumers to think about what they are doing when they cross the border to "pay the queens taxes" in Northern Ireland! Of course the irish mail on Sunday picked up on this hypocracy! They found out that millions of euro had been payed to Northern Ireland companies to do work in the Republic! A contract was given to a Northen company to build a bypass in Biffo's own cconstituency! When the Irish mail on Sunday questioned either Mr.Lenihan or someone in the Department for Finance guess what their response was? They gave the cheapest quote and if we gave the contract to a company in the republic simply because they were paying irish taxes we would be "Breaking European Competition Law"! The truth is that we lost our complete sovereignty years ago!

In my opinion we should break from the E.U altogether and try to get back to the stage where we were!
I think this would be more beneficial to us than a lot of people think!
For a start if we got back our own currency and had our own central bank again we firstly would be able to set our own interests rates giving people payin back loans even more breathing space!
Secondly our currency would weaken against the Euro, us dollar, Great Britain pound etc! Why would this be good? Coupled with our low corporation tax it would mean that it would be a more attractive place for a company to set up than it is at the moment!
It would also mean that companies here that are thinking of leaving would be more willing to stay!
We would also be exporting even more products!
Of course this would be a quiet biased suggestion if i did not mention the downside!
Imports would cost more!
Oil, coffee, tea, cars etc!
Also we would not be getting any more grants from the E.U

In my opinion the most important thing at the moment is job security and indeed job creation!
The more and more people that line up at the dole queue the less money in the public finances which means less money for health, education and infrastructure improvements!

ben bedlam

Ive heard suggestions from places such as the Oirechteas that perhaps the coverage for Lisbon 2 should not give equal time to both the yes and no sides. I was just wondering has this proposal been given the go ahead? If so, it seems like a complete attack on democracy and freedom of speech

tolosenc

There never had to be equal time, just un biased reporting from state funded media.