seamus wrote: » Of course it does. If you were being asked, "Do you want to go on holidays to Spain or to Italy?", and your answer was "Rice Krispies!", do you not see how pointless it was to ask you the question in the first place? More relevant - if you're being asked to choose between A or B, and you ignore the content of either option, but go for B because the presenter wants you to choose A, you're once again completely missing the point of being asked in the first place. Detail please, how Lisbon plans to curtail the democratic process in this country.
ven0m wrote: » You're adding a third option where there is none on a yes/no vote. Your analogy is way way way off.
Your right to vote how you please for whatever reason means this is not questionable. You're injecting moral right/authority into voting, which has nothing to do with voting.
The structure of the politicians within the various constituents of the EC removes any real democratic elections of people to posts, with no framework for public accountability, like we have currently when we get to vote MEP's etc in, or the use of a veto by any member state, or collection of vetos by a group of member states. this isn't rocket science & is core to the fundamental problems within what Lisbon is trying to achieve. A president who is not elected by ballot, or accountable to term balloting? I mean come on, please don't tell me you really need me to explain this to you, otherwise what are you doing in a thread about the Lisbon treaty?
To my mind, there is nothing illegal, immoral or irresponsible about a protest vote. You have a right and a responsibility to vote whatever way you see fit. What you might think is "best for the people or the country" and what I might feel is "best for the people or the country", could be two entirely different things. I personally feel that for as long as we are dealing with an intransigent EU that avoids referendums wherever possible and rejects referendum decisions whenever they do have to have a referendum and the decision is not one that they wished for, well I feel that we are better off preventing any further integration with an EU that is administrated on this basis. You appear to feel differently, more power to you, but I still am voting responsibly by voting in line with my views above.
seamus wrote: » And that's exactly what I said. Your reason for voting is based on what you think is best for you and/or for the country. Great!
walshb wrote: » Humanji,, are you honestly telling me that most people in the YES side voted YES because they read the treaty. THE POXY GOVT BARELY READ THE TREATY AND ANY NORMAL SANE PERSON WOULDN'T BE BOTHERED READING THE TREATY. Wasn't that the major problem. It was so damn extensive and complex and convoluted. So, if we agree that the majority of VOTERS did not read the treaty, then surely how can anyone VOTE yes to something they know nothing about?? I voted NO, because I didn't know the precise details. I am being honest; but if you are telling me that the YES camp voted YES because they all understood the treaty, then that is being totally dishonest. The actual folks pressing for YES didn't know the treaty. I will vote NO this time not because I do not know the details, but because I refuse to be dictated to and even if I understood and agreed with the treaty, I will still vote NO on principal. That's my whole point. For democracies sake and for respect, I believe this is the correct answer Seriously, think about it. The YES camp voted yes more on the basis of what they were being TOLD to vote on. I am willing to bet that of the TOTAL number of people who voted YES, that about 5 percent read that bloody treaty. Similar to the NO side.
ven0m wrote: » The constitution of the Republic Of Ireland contains the proviso that anything that changes the constitution, or the fundamentals of our own sovereignty must be put before the people by way of referendum. It was a deliberate clause by the founders of our country as a form of protecting us from ourselves & others. It was incredible foresight in my personal opinion. Agreed entirely. That is why we must defend it.Many other countries do not have such explicit clauses in their own frameworks, some have options on referendums, & chose not to execute them, some like the Dutch have them & then decided 'screw public mandate'. Quite. Democracy in action!No country lost their rights to have referendums. Those that had them by manditory framework had them, & they spoke clearly. Others with options, exercised rights to not have them, which they were entitled to. Fundamentally, the EU is about a group of nations working together respecting each other's differences while trying to achieve commonality. Those that had them in round 1 said "NO". Their politicians then decided not to consult them again. Democracy in action!The fundamental crux of what I think you are getting at is that people in various countries with options for referenda had their calls fall on deaf ears with their governments, & those with options didn't exercise them to outrage of many numbers in those countries. Exactly.No-one has had anything taken from them here in this entire process. But, what is blatant is this bandying about that Ireland & its voters should respect Europe, while the utmost contempt since our 'no' vote has been shown towards us, which has gone unaddressed by our elected officials in Europe on our behalf, or by people in general.
niceirishfella wrote: » Evasion of the question and your tone,agression and use of bad language speaks yards here. Mods please note.
Darragh29 wrote: » I'm dying to see what happens when we reject Lisbon next October, then we are in uncharted water!
ven0m wrote: » The constitution of the Republic Of Ireland contains the proviso that anything that changes the constitution, or the fundamentals of our own sovereignty must be put before the people by way of referendum. It was a deliberate clause by the founders of our country as a form of protecting us from ourselves & others. It was incredible foresight in my personal opinion. Totally agree. That's why it must be defended. Many other countries do not have such explicit clauses in their own frameworks, some have options on referendums, & chose not to execute them, some like the Dutch have them & then decided 'screw public mandate'. Quite. EU democracy in action!! No country lost their rights to have referendums. Those that had them by manditory framework had them, & they spoke clearly. Others with options, exercised rights to not have them, which they were entitled to. Fundamentally, the EU is about a group of nations working together respecting each other's differences while trying to achieve commonality . Those that exercised that right the first time were not given the chance in the second round. EU democracy in action!! The fundamental crux of what I think you are getting at is that people in various countries with options for referenda had their calls fall on deaf ears with their governments, & those with options didn't exercise them to outrage of many numbers in those countries. Quite. EU democracy in action!! No-one has had anything taken from them here in this entire process. But, what is blatant is this bandying about that Ireland & its voters should respect Europe, while the utmost contempt since our 'no' vote has been shown towards us, which has gone unaddressed by our elected officials in Europe on our behalf, or by people in general. Agree. This is in my view a determined attempt by the political elite of Europe to impose a European federal state, with what is laughingly called a democracy based loosely upon the French model, and which is totally foreign to us in Ireland and to other northern countries. Perhaps we should recall that Europe has little track record of democracy. In fact the oldest democracies are the UK and the USA. Our politicians, God rest them (now??) are putting our fate in the hands of infants.
Many other countries do not have such explicit clauses in their own frameworks, some have options on referendums, & chose not to execute them, some like the Dutch have them & then decided 'screw public mandate'.
No country lost their rights to have referendums. Those that had them by manditory framework had them, & they spoke clearly. Others with options, exercised rights to not have them, which they were entitled to. Fundamentally, the EU is about a group of nations working together respecting each other's differences while trying to achieve commonality
The fundamental crux of what I think you are getting at is that people in various countries with options for referenda had their calls fall on deaf ears with their governments, & those with options didn't exercise them to outrage of many numbers in those countries.
No-one has had anything taken from them here in this entire process. But, what is blatant is this bandying about that Ireland & its voters should respect Europe, while the utmost contempt since our 'no' vote has been shown towards us, which has gone unaddressed by our elected officials in Europe on our behalf, or by people in general.
junkyard wrote: » I'm voting no as I did the last time and will do again if and when there's another one.
obl wrote: » It's nice to know that people will be voting, untaintedly, on the issue at hand... :rolleyes:
ven0m wrote: » What about the fact the majority of British people wanted a referendum, but the government there refused to hold one? That speaks volumes about what the EU wants to be.
dead air wrote: » Voters choosing to vote No because they're angry with the government or because they detest Sarkozy disgust me. The Lisbon treaty referendum is not a popularity contest. I detest our government in its current form and I am still voting Yes.
ShooterSF wrote: » Yeah. Dont forget those feckers who vote Yes because the government told them to or cause they vote the opposite way to Sinn Fein. Darn annoying.
Ronan|Raven wrote: » A yes vote is a vote for abortion!!!111111 I wish people who held this view were aborted...
The 2005 Labour manifesto said: “The new Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively… We will put it to the British people in a referendum.” During the run up to the election Gordon Brown said: "It's not as though this is being imposed on the country. People will have the chance to put their views." (26 January 2005) According to opinion polls, 83% of Labour voters want a referendum (ICM June 2007)
Ronan|Raven wrote: » A yes vote is a vote for abortion!!!111111 I wish people who held this view as fact were aborted...
Darragh29 wrote: » And why are you voting yes???
dead air wrote: » A few reasons... Trying to rebuild Ireland's reputation in Europe. A few years ago Ireland was the toast of Europe around the time we held the rotating presidency (actually playing a huge part in negotiating the treaty). We are now seen as a selfish brat, throwing a hissy fit because things are going our way. With a Yes vote in Lisbon round I, we were given assurances on our neutrality and tax veto. In fact, our constitution already provides for Ireland to opt out of any common defence policy, and as that part of our constitution is not being altered, I can't see how our neutrality can be eroded. Losing a permanent Commissioner was the only problem I have with the treaty but this affects every other member state also. It seems to me to be a reasonable solution to having too many commissioners with a limited amount of portfolios. The new arrangements provide for each country to nominate a commissioner for every 2 of 3 terms, so all countries are equal in this regard. The thing is, there's no real major advantages or selling point to ratifying the treaty. I'm voting yes (again) partly because I don't trust the likes of Declan Ganly, Coir, the assorted random collection of socialists et al. Also because of all the issues raised by the No campaign just appear to be totally exaggerated or false. Abortion? Military conscription? Come on now...
Darragh29 wrote: » Most of what you've posted above seems to be based on a fear of what will happen to us if we vote no, rather than any real substantive argument being made for voting yes. If there is any party in all of this that I don't trust, it's the party that has for the second time, refused to accept our democratic decision. There is no point in being rich if you are not free. This notion of ,"Jasus lads, we better not upset them or they'll take out the wooden spoon to us", this is what we are actually dealing with now with Brussels, "Do this, OR ELSE"!!!
micmclo wrote: » Long thread so maybe it was posted already. Voting no to show your disgust with the government is ridiculous. Plus the main opposition parties campaigned for a Yes vote so you're achieving nothing. Vote on the issues and if you don't understand the damn thing, then ask here or the boards EU forum or the referendum commission or anyone you want. But if you want to kick the government then use the local elections and don't hijack this referendum
