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Child Item

Outer City Bypass

?Cee?view

Just saw the following on galwaynews.ie

What do ye think?

GO AHEAD FOR PART OF CONTROVERSIAL CITY BYPASS

Tue 2nd December 2008 The controversial Galway city outer bypass has been given the go ahead, but only for part of the proposed route.
An Bord Pleanala has approved part of the development between the junction of Garraun and Gortatleva, and refused part of the development west of the N59 between the junction of Gortatleva and An Baile Nua.
In the 14 page report, issued by the planning board to Galway Bay fm news this morning, the main reason given for refusal to grant part of the Bypass is that it would cut through Tonabrocky Bog.
The board say that the bog is part of the Moycullen Bogs Natural heritage area, and is also the site of a legally protected and vulnerable species.
Speaking on the Keith Finnegan show, Senior Engineer in the Galway national road design office, Jack Eising says that the partial refusal means they must look for alternative arrangements.

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kraggy

Zzippy wrote: »

You know, you have a point that we need a ring road, but calling people "loonies" because they object on valid environmental grounds is BS. You'll start to sound like Frank Fahey or Michael Crowe - "if you don't do what we say you must be a loony" :rolleyes:
The Tonabrocky bog is a protected habitat, there is European legislation that says we can't just destroy these habitats in the name of progress, we have a National Parks and Wildlife Service that are charged with protecting these habitats, I could go on. I suppose everyone who works for NPWS is a loony? (Actually there are a few, but thats not my point... )

The point is, these habitats are protected. Disregarding EU legislation leads to the EU Commission finding against Ireland and levying large fines (millions per day in some cases).
Planners are supposed to make themselves aware of this and plan around it. Its no surprise the road was turned down if they couldn't do their job properly and plan the route with least interference to a protected habitat.

Edit: Just realised my sig makes me a "loony"

+1 Good post.

If we let them build over this habitat, where do we draw the line? Keep approving projects until we upheave the Bog of Allen, build on the Ring of Kerry?

Your use of the term "loonie" to describe those who are protecting the environment is quite disturbing.

citycentre

The "loonies" I'm referring to are those that object in principle to the idea of a bypass in the first place and I will stand by my labelling of them as lunatics if they realistically believe that Galway does not need this bypass immediately. You'll notice in my first post I referred to the "looney fringe of the environmentalists". I think it should be obvious that I don't regard all environmentalists as "looneys" and I'd suggest that people read a bit more carefully before jumping down my throat.

I actually fully agree that the bog should be protected, that the designers of the bypass made fundamental mistakes in their routing of the road through this area and thus that the western half of the road was refused for good reason. Shame on the city council (again) for their general incompetence in anything involving infrastructure for this City. At no point have I said that I disagree with the decision ABP made. The route needs to be modified, the new route will go in for fast-track planning and the full bypass will go ahead - eventually.

I'll reiterate since I seem to have been picked up so wrongly - people objecting on VALID environmental grounds are to be applauded. The loonies are those who claim that Galway does not need a bypass at all.

As for buses in Galway? There is no current through road in Galway remotely suitable for a proper dedicated bus lane to operate. Dedicated bus lanes are the only way to GUARANTEE a proper, regular and reliable service. Galway will never have a proper, regular and reliable bus service until an infrastructure is provided for it and the only way such an infrastructure can be provided is by taking away priority on existing routes from cars. This could be done now and indeed it would be a huge incentive for people commuting into the city to leave their cars behind - nice free flowing bus journey as opposed to sitting in even worse traffic jams on half the roadspace. It would be a no-brainer.

However by putting this tactic into place now before a bypass is in place people living in the west of the city needing to travel east of Galway would automatically suffer even more as would the people and businesses of Connemara and the tourists travelling from the east. The problem is that Galway City's traffic problems are not just city based. They are regional. And the bottleneck that is Galway is having a strangling effect on everywhere west of the city. Aside from this absolute REQUIREMENT to provide proper access to a whole region of the country there is the knock on effect on the city itself.

Of course I will only be correct in saying that there will be less cars on the road in the city itself if proper measures are taken to both incentivise the use of public transport (by providing the proper infrastructure) and to dis-incentivize the unnescessary use of cars for short journeys (through proper planning of neighbourhoods, further pedestrianization of the city core, reducing road capacity in favour of public transport etc.). This is how it's done in successful, small cities throughout Europe. There's no reason it can't work in Galway - unless the bypass does not go ahead...

Sorry for going on a bit. I love Galway, I feel it has the potential to be a much, much better city if there was a bit of vision and forethought put into decision making on these important matters. It's being strangled right now and will continue to decline unless action is taken and I really strongly believe that the bypass ALONG with the other actions I've mentioned could reverse the decline. Of course the unfortunate thing is that the politicians (Fahey etc.) will most likely say "Sure you've got your feckin bypass, that'll do you for the next 20 years..." without giving a seconds consideration to the other elements that would create an integrated solution to Galway's transport nightmare.

Rant over! For now

KevR

BTH wrote: »

The "loonies" I'm referring to are those that object in principle to the idea of a bypass in the first place and I will stand by my labelling of them as lunatics if they realistically believe that Galway does not need this bypass immediately.

If I'm not mistaken that Niall O'Brolachain guy is saying that the bypass is unnecessary. And to think he used to mayor! He also says he wasn't surprised permission for the western half was refused because of the bog - that's fair enough to say. But to say Galway doesn't need a bypass is just crazy in my opinion!

citycentre

Webbs wrote: »

Its shortsighted planning that has got Galway and the Irish road infrastructure in such a mess...

...the land around the bypass which will no doubt be rezoned residential or commercial!!

You're dead right on the first point there - it does look like overkill to have a dual carriageway there under current circumstances given that it'll join onto the rather inadequate coast road. However it's most likely the Barna and Cappagh road areas will continue to develop rapidly (when this recession is over obviously) thus justifying the higher capacity road. I shouldn't be questioning this one example of official forward thinking!!

On the second, one would hope (but not expect) that the lessons of the M50 will be learned. There should be a good buffer zone limiting development either side of the bypass and particularly limiting any "city" type development (dense residential, commercial or industrial) to the city side of the road. Galway City should not be allowed to sprawl any further, it already covers a ridiculous area for a relativly low population.

citycentre

KevR wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken that Niall O'Brolachain guy is saying that the bypass is unnecessary. And to think he used to mayor! He also says he wasn't surprised permission for the western half was refused because of the bog - that's fair enough to say. But to say Galway doesn't need a bypass is just crazy in my opinion!

Yes Mr O'Brolachain would be a fairly prime example of the type of people I mean. Obviously decent, upstanding, intelligent... but completely blind to the real problems facing this city. Ok so looney IS too strong a word but I just cant fathom the attitude that some of these people have... Maybe it's me whos crazy...

Mrs OBumble

BTH wrote: »

However it's most likely the Barna and Cappagh road areas will continue to develop rapidly (when this recession is over obviously) thus justifying the higher capacity road.

What sort of development do you expect out there? IMHO we should be looking to provide employment and community facilities out there, so that the 000's of people living on the west of the city don't have to commute to the other side for work in the first place.

Proper planning would never have let the "work east / live west" scenario develop.

(Maybe I'm a "loony": I believe that for environmental reasons, employers should be sourcing their workforce locally: employment law needs to be changed do that commuting distance can be considered in making employment decisions.)

JohnCleary

JustMary wrote: »

Proper planning would never have let the "work east / live west" scenario develop.

In fairness, west city was always a more desirable place to live (better scenery for one), hence higher property/land value. It wouldn't make sense for a big company to stick a big factory west of the city when it could build the same factory east of the city for cheaper. Also, if it's exporting goods, east of the city means no traffic hence get goods out of the factory quicker

That's why I reckon the 'live west/work east' as you call it happened in the first place - however i'm sure some expert will be along soon to tell me how wrong I am :pac: - I'm just going on what soooo many people tell me; that they'd hate to live on the east of the city, much prefer the west

[Deleted User]

Office / IT type work would be perfectly suited to the west side of the city - no need for trucks coming and going.

Googling Galway zoning produced this:
http://www.townofgalway.org/2006%20Zoning%20Changes/ZoningDistricts-v3.pdf

A bit more looking produced this:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/CityDevelopmentPlan/pmap/mapfr037.html
There seems to be nothing but residential on the west side of the city.
There is ample space for some parkmore type office parks.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

A bit more looking produced this:
http://www.galwaycity.ie/CityDevelopmentPlan/pmap/mapfr037.html
There seems to be nothing but residential on the west side of the city.
There is ample space for some parkmore type office parks.

There's a tiny bit of light industrial in Dangan business park. But apart from that, the planners seem to have intended that virtually everyone on the West would have to cross the river to get to work.

big b

There's a business park in Knocknacarra, where Hibernian's call centre is. A fair number of empty units there just now, but that's true of just about anywhere now.
There's the retail park too, which must employ a couple of hundred.

When things pick up I'm sure commercial activity will increase. I'm sure most of the people living in the west of the city and county would rather have business parks than industrial estates for their next door neighbours though.

Mrs OBumble

big b wrote: »

I'm sure most of the people living in the west of the city and county would rather have business parks than industrial estates for their next door neighbours though.

What's the difference between these?

big b

JustMary wrote: »

What's the difference between these?

Business Parks - office blocks for call centres, head offices etc.

Industrial Estates - factories, with much related HGV activity etc.

There's usually some crossover, but in general that's what I meant.

monkeytronics

topper75 wrote: »

There is no shortage of bogs between Bearna and Clifden. I enjoy that landscape as much as anyone, but is it asking too much to sacrifice a small patch of bogland to provide proper access for people in West County Galway and Connemara to the rest of the world?

I understand it was a difficult decision. That bogland is beautiful. But it is not unique. People's livelihoods come first.

Actually you'll find that it is quite unique. A Blanket bog site that is within Ireland's best 80 examples of such habitat. In fact this particular bog is of lowland blanket bog of which only 3% of the Worlds bog contain. Pretty important I would have thought

galvianlord

Make Mr Hambleton a planning supremo for Galway...

With unfettered power he could put all his wonderful ideas, as elucidated week-in week-out in the local press, into action...

I wonder how he would get on inside the tent for a change?

?Cee?view

galvianlord wrote: »

Make Mr Hambleton a planning supremo for Galway...

With unfettered power he could put all his wonderful ideas, as elucidated week-in week-out in the local press, into action...

I wonder how he would get on inside the tent for a change?

God forbid! If he was in charge then we'd really be in the S**T

Robbo

galvianlord wrote: »

Make Mr Hambleton a planning supremo for Galway...

With unfettered power he could put all his wonderful ideas, as elucidated week-in week-out in the local press, into action...

I wonder how he would get on inside the tent for a change?

You could assemble a council of elders made up from the cranks who write long and meandering letters to the local papers...Niall Farrell as minister for defence, Fred Johnson as minister for culture, Margaretta D'arcy as minister without portfolio (or clue) and John O'Shea from GOAL as the overarching Supreme Chancellor.

It'd be like the Super Friends. Only parochial. And ****.

Webbs

JustMary wrote: »

What sort of development do you expect out there? IMHO we should be looking to provide employment and community facilities out there, so that the 000's of people living on the west of the city don't have to commute to the other side for work in the first place.

Proper planning would never have let the "work east / live west" scenario develop.

(Maybe I'm a "loony": I believe that for environmental reasons, employers should be sourcing their workforce locally: employment law needs to be changed do that commuting distance can be considered in making employment decisions.)

In fairness most large towns (which galway is when put into context with other countries) have a similar scenario of work east, live west or something similar.
If there had been a concerted effort many moons ago to connect the two with joined up thinking before the traffic became a major issue then we may have been in a better position to consider the work/live balance. But its also a historical thing as these were not concerns 20years ago let alone 50 or 60, isnt hindsight a wonderful thing!

I agree environmental concerns should be a large part of planning where people work etc, but most people in truth don't want to live near where they work - we cant all work in the centre of town or in the wilds of connemara unfortunately! Price of land is cheapest where people dont want to live so is the obvious place to put up factories etc away from residential areas.

As an aside that is why in most cities in the UK and I think in lots of europe the west end of a city is the 'posh' part, and the east the 'poor' side as the prevailing winds are usually from the west and rich people didnt want to live in their houses with the smell of factories wafting over!

galvianlord

Robbo wrote: »

You could assemble a council of elders made up from the cranks who write long and meandering letters to the local papers...Niall Farrell as minister for defence, Fred Johnson as minister for culture, Margaretta D'arcy as minister without portfolio (or clue) and John O'Shea from GOAL as the overarching Supreme Chancellor.

It'd be like the Super Friends. Only parochial. And ****.

Oh that's a superb idea! It'd be like the Paris Commune all over again...or the Cultural Revolution....we could all have a little 'green' book with a collection of their best quotes....

KevR

Was on my way to the Racecourse (via the Parkmore entrance) this morning for my exams and when I passed through the roundabout at Briarhill (Lynch roundabout) at about 08:20 there was a tail back all the way along the Doughiska dual carriageway. It stretched at least back to the next roundabout (Martin roundabout), if not further (I couldn't see).

What a nightmare for anyone coming from Oranmore, Athenry, Loughrea, Gort....etc into Galway to work everyday. I wouldn't like to be in their shoes, that's for sure.

Of course this problem wouldn't exist if we had a bypass..

galwayrush

Good grief, can you imagine if a serial objector had more power.:eek::eek::eek:

Cycle

It is indeed an area of natural beauty and SPA. I am of course attempting to be a realist when i say that this by-pass and proposed fifth bridge over the Corrib needs to go ahead in order to relieve Galways buckling transport infrastructure.
However its unfortunate that we rely on the automobile so heavily. The bulding of the destruction of the the natural heritage is relative as think of the hundreds of areas across the city and its suburbs which have been ripped up to make way for 'development'.

The village has only recently been invested by the springing up of suburban housiong. This i do not understand as its so close to the city?

gleannuirce

why are we arguing about a new bridge and bypass when it was built 20 years ago??? That's right, i'm old enough to remember the jams over the salmon weir bridge before the new quincentennial bridge was built.

We had the same arguments: urgently required, traffic flow, blah blah blah.

What it really was about was opening up land in knocknacarra for development, and more importantly, developers.

Now commuters have choked up the qc bridge, we have to have a new one. In the meantimes the lads with the big jeeps, good mates of Fahey and Hanley, buy up land around the new route.

Im stuck in the traffic every day. But I prefer it to ripping up eastern cois fharraige for the benefit of those bastards.

KevR

gleannuirce wrote: »

What it really was about was opening up land in knocknacarra for development, and more importantly, developers.

Now commuters have choked up the qc bridge, we have to have a new one. In the meantimes the lads with the big jeeps, good mates of Fahey and Hanley, buy up land around the new route.

Most of the bypass will be motorway. They can buy and develop all the land they want near the route but they still won't be able to put direct accesses onto it.

Galway has grown in the last 20 years and will continue to grow. Unfortunately, the Quincentennial won't be able to adequately serve the people of Galway forever.

The main problem is that the N6 between Westside and Oranmore was built badly/cheaply/with little foresight. We have 2 lanes in each direction the whole way but far too many inadequate at-grade junctions; there's not one single grade-seperated junction along the whole route! If the current N6 had been built properly traffic wouldn't be half as bad and we'd probably get away without a new bypass/ring road for a few more years. But it was built badly, the space isn't there to upgrade pretty much all of the junctions, it would be too costly anyway and the major disruption during construction would kill the City. It's not an option at all now really.

I think we're going to have to proceed with the bypass - whether some people like it or not.

Cycle

It is reasonable to say that with the Irish economy in ruins, development and urban sprawl is not as much of a problem.

With cut backs occurring in every sector, I put this question to you, Will the conservation of Terryland/ Menlo be overlooked?

I am just a blow in,in Galway, so i know who Fahey is, but who's Hanley?

Aswell the Salmon weir bridge is still constantaly clogged with traffic along with all other bridges in the city during rush hour. It is my understanding that most cities equal to Galway's size all have these congestion problems. Our natural heritage shouldn't have to suffer just so these small problems are sloved!

Chris_533976

FWIW the bypass, if built, will NOT be motorway. The M6 will terminate at the airport junction, then will be N6 from there. The bypass will not have motorway sightlines and will only be 100kmh capable, basically. So unfortunately, no chance of motorway.

?Cee?view

Chris_533976 wrote: »

FWIW the bypass, if built, will NOT be motorway. The M6 will terminate at the airport junction, then will be N6 from there. The bypass will not have motorway sightlines and will only be 100kmh capable, basically. So unfortunately, no chance of motorway.

Isn't there a possibility though that it could be designated Motorway, but with 100kmh limit? This would mean that planning couldn't be granted for access to and exits from the road, as it can be with a Dual Carraigeway. In fact, considering this, if they don't designate it Motorway, you can be damn sure the road will be developed on and ruined in a number of years!

snubbleste

When did the bypass case go to court? I did not realise this was happening

An Bord Pleanála approved the €17 million Galway city bypass after finding the impact of the project on the Lough Corrib conservation area, while “locally severe”, would not adversely affect the “integrity” of the site..
In proceedings by Mr Sweetman, which opened yesterday, the State has agreed with claims by Mr Sweetman that the [An Bord Pleanala's] approval of November 2008 is invalid because it breaches provisions of the EU habitats directive requiring that such projects must not adversely affect the integrity of a conservation site, in this case the Lough Corrib candidate Special Area of Conservation (cSAC) site..>> Irish Times

?Cee?view

It's being heard in the Commercial Court. Cases are fastracked there if they're over a certain value. Galway City Council and Galway Co. Co. requested that it be heard there on the basis of the importance of the matter being dealt with quickly.

Hopefully, the apparently God awful mess can be sorted out, with Sweetman sent packing and Hands Across the Corrib thrown into the Corrib.

I see Sweetman is involved with the Shell to Sea crowd as well. He seems to be a serial objector/troublemaker.

ronnie3585

churchview wrote: »

I see Sweetman is involved with the Shell to Sea crowd as well. He seems to be a serial objector/troublemaker.

Indeed. The ecological equivalent of Naill Farrell.

Robbo

churchview wrote: »

It's being heard in the Commercial Court. Cases are fastracked there if they're over a certain value. Galway City Council and Galway Co. Co. requested that it be heard there on the basis of the importance of the matter being dealt with quickly.

Hopefully, the apparently God awful mess can be sorted out, with Sweetman sent packing and Hands Across the Corrib thrown into the Corrib.

I see Sweetman is involved with the Shell to Sea crowd as well. He seems to be a serial objector/troublemaker.

Hands Across The Corrib Ltd, registered with the CRO in 2003. Was the outer bypass even on the cards back then?