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Unemployed Solicitors ?

Teacherman

My wife lost her job in February as a solicitor. She has been looking now for over six months. She only had about two years experience. Has anybody out there had a similar experience?:( I'm mainly interested in other legal people ,but would be good to hear from anybody who's lost a job and now finds their family in precarious financial circumstances.

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Maximilian

Of course one important thing that hasn't been mentioned is the stress and pressure. There's a lot of it. I think that's another reason why many experienced solicitors are fleeing the profession.

Amazotheamazing

By my understanding Maximillian, you are a partner in your own firm, if so, do you agree with TheDeimurge's appraisal of the situation?

Maximilian

Well, I think he is exaggerating slightly in general to be honest but at the moment and for the foreseeable future, there's no doubt it is extremely tough. Even big firms are laying people off. We do commercial property and banking work, so needless to say there's not much happening at the moment & it's worrying. I might be flipping burgers next year if things continue like this.

Anyone who goes into law thinking they will make a ton of money is largely deluded. Only a small proportion of solicitors make the huge money. If there's one thing this profession teaches you, is that your clients are the one who make the money & we just assist & enable them. I have seen idiots make millions for doing **** all. If I could go back in time, I would have done something else entirely and be a very rich man.

Gangu

Maximilian wrote: »

Well, I think he is exaggerating slightly in general to be honest but at the moment and for the foreseeable future, there's no doubt it is extremely tough. Even big firms are laying people off. We do commercial property and banking work, so needless to say there's not much happening at the moment & it's worrying. I might be flipping burgers next year if things continue like this.

Anyone who goes into law thinking they will make a ton of money is largely deluded. Only a small proportion of solicitors make the huge money. If there's one thing this profession teaches you, is that your clients are the one who make the money & we just assist & enable them. I have seen idiots make millions for doing **** all. If I could go back in time, I would have done something else entirely and be a very rich man.

Hear hear. I am 11 years qualified, a partner for the last few years and I echo that entirely.

BanzaiBk

Maximilian wrote: »

Of course one important thing that hasn't been mentioned is the stress and pressure. There's a lot of it. I think that's another reason why many experienced solicitors are fleeing the profession.

Maximilian wrote: »

Well, I think he is exaggerating slightly in general to be honest but at the moment and for the foreseeable future, there's no doubt it is extremely tough. Even big firms are laying people off.

Anyone who goes into law thinking they will make a ton of money is largely deluded. Only a small proportion of solicitors make the huge money. If there's one thing this profession teaches you, is that your clients are the one who make the money & we just assist & enable them. I have seen idiots make millions for doing **** all. If I could go back in time, I would have done something else entirely and be a very rich man.

On the ball with these posts.

Teacherman

Jaysus-I'm only talking about making a living. Not making millions. Obviously more solicitors will be let go as unemployment rises and given that solicitors are in effect collateral damage from the end of the building boom.

johnnyskeleton

Maximilian wrote: »

If I could go back in time, I would have done something else entirely and be a very rich man.

Would you though? You always struck me as someone who actually enjoyed legal work rather than someone who was only out to make a quick buck.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

That's fine in theory, but it does mean you can be waiting for years for any payment at all. Sadly not receiving fees for several years isn't an option.

Solicitors are the new barristers it seems.

Amazotheamazing

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Solicitors are the new barristers it seems.

Perhaps, but Barristers aren't expected to run a firm on IOU's.

Maximilian

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Would you though? You always struck me as someone who actually enjoyed legal work rather than someone who was only out to make a quick buck.

Solicitors are the new barristers it seems.

Honestly I would do something else. I've seen people make millions from nothing with the bank's money. I've helped them do it.

I used to like the law more than I do now but ultimately it's just a job. I would rather be retired before 40 on a beach somewhere.

dats_right

With announcements of redundancies now a near daily occurence, how safe is your job in the short, medium or long term?

Ps. Sorry to hear the bad news Maxi, I hope you get sorted with something soon.

Maximilian

Thanks. Seriously looking at going out on my own. Not expecting it to be easy for the next while.

dats_right

Maximilian wrote: »

Thanks. Seriously looking at going out on my own. Not expecting it to be easy for the next while.

At the moment, despite downturn I'm secure enough until I qualify (December '09) and then I'd imagine all bets are off, but thankfully at least I've got a little breathing space. I know my firms initial plans were to keep me on and they probably still will if the work is there (but that's a very big IF).

How are the rest of you all faring? I would imagine that many of you aren't as optimistic as you were only a few months ago.

nuac

Sorry to hear about your job Maximilian.

It is not a great time to set up a practice. Most established practices hope to get through the difficult period ahead by finalising cases which have been in gestation for some time. New work coming into a new practice is unlikely to cover the overhead.

As Demiurge and others have pointed out, fee income is under pressure, whereas the time and cost of running a practice grows daily.

Few firms are offering permanent positions at present. HOwever there is always some demand for locums due to leaves, illness etc. Firms are more inclined to take someone on shortterm to fill in for those events.

As you have some experience that would give you some breathing space and income until the economic position becomes clearer.

As an experienced selfemployed solicitor I sympathise with all those wondering whether they should go into or stay in law. As I prepare to spend part of yet another weekend dealing with some problems I feel there must be an easier way of making a living.

The tribunals and the conspicious consumption of some prominent lawyers have given youngsters and their parents the impression that easy money can be made. So wrong!.

Further the various colleges public and private offer an increasing number of law courses of various kinds without making it clear that the market is limited. In particular they should all be required to advise intending solicitors that they will need a training contract. I get many requests for training contracts, some of whom have committed years and thousands of euros before realising the difficulties.

Maximilian

nuac wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your job Maximilian.

It is not a great time to set up a practice. Most established practices hope to get through the difficult period ahead by finalising cases which have been in gestation for some time. New work coming into a new practice is unlikely to cover the overhead.

Thanks. I know its probably the worst time to consider setting up on my own but if there are no other jobs out there I may have no other option. I have the use of an office and services for free, thanks to my brother, so things like that will help overhead-wise. I have a few other ideas as well as great contacts, so I guess I'll just see how things pan out.

Firt thing on the agenda is a holiday though. I haven't had two weeks off in a row for over 8 years would you believe.

nuac

OK, Maximilian, if you have offfice space and some help with overheads and some contacts things may work out. Good luck.

dats_right

But then there are all the other expenses too, like SMDF or whatever professional indemnity insurance you'll use, practising cert fees, realistically you'll also need to be in the DX so you'll have the subscription to that, then whatever formalities required by the Law Society. Then you'll need to consider getting stationary, possibly a case management system, opening office and client bank accounts and the book-keeping arrangements thereof and these are just some of the things that spring to mind.

All that said, these obstacles certainly aren't insurmountable and the rewards if you succeed are definitely worth it in my opinion. I would wish you every success whatever you decide.

BanzaiBk

Sorry to read about your situation Maxi, I think everyone in the profession is feeling the current pinch:(

Dan133269

Maximilian wrote: »

Anyone who goes into law thinking they will make a ton of money is largely deluded. Only a small proportion of solicitors make the huge money. If there's one thing this profession teaches you, is that your clients are the one who make the money & we just assist & enable them. I have seen idiots make millions for doing **** all. If I could go back in time, I would have done something else entirely and be a very rich man.

What does the average solicitor in a small office make?
According to the big 5 and maybe few others in Dublin, they retain 95% of their qualifying trainees, and they pay 30k while you're training, so surely the solicitors working there are pretty comfortable?

Gangu wrote: »

Hear hear. I am 11 years qualified, a partner for the last few years and I echo that entirely.

You're a partner and you're not doing too well financially??? :eek:
or are you just referring to the stress and workload etc?

Maximilian

dats_right wrote: »

But then there are all the other expenses too, like SMDF or whatever professional indemnity insurance you'll use, practising cert fees, realistically you'll also need to be in the DX so you'll have the subscription to that, then whatever formalities required by the Law Society. Then you'll need to consider getting stationary, possibly a case management system, opening office and client bank accounts and the book-keeping arrangements thereof and these are just some of the things that spring to mind.

All that said, these obstacles certainly aren't insurmountable and the rewards if you succeed are definitely worth it in my opinion. I would wish you every success whatever you decide.

Thanks, Other than Practising Cert and PI Cover, there's not much by way of overheads. Case Mgt I don't need. DX is not a necessity either (many firms don't bother with it at all). I have a friend who has offered to help out with accounts. All in all, I have a lot of support from friends and family. Times like this you really need people like that behind you.

Dan133269 wrote: »

What does the average solicitor in a small office make?
According to the big 5 and maybe few others in Dublin, they retain 95% of their qualifying trainees, and they pay 30k while you're training, so surely the solicitors working there are pretty comfortable?

I think you will find the big 5 are not keeping traineess on. It's the same across the board, big firms to small.

robskiola

Maximilian wrote: »

Thanks, Other than Practising Cert and PI Cover, there's not much by way of overheads. Case Mgt I don't need. DX is not a necessity either (many firms don't bother with it at all). I have a friend who has offered to help out with accounts. All in all, I have a lot of support from friends and family. Times like this you really need people like that behind you.

I'm facing a similar, although slightly more difficult, predicament. I've only been qualified one year and am now facing redundancy come 2009. A friend has approached me, looking to start up a firm and has been feeling me out to see if i would be interested in starting up with her, with me acting in the litigation role (where my experience to date has been in) whereas she'll be in the commercial/conveyancing role. I'm not certain what to do though. This thread doesn't give me much encouragement either. We would ostensibly be operating out of the north west. The fears though are simply:
(a) am i experienced enough? The majority of experience has been in the District Court. I imagine in terms of dealing in any other litigation matters in the higher courts, counsel could provide the guiding light i.e. if we can actually get clients in the door in the first place, of which i'm not certain of.
(b) how much does it really cost to run a firm, like the cost of insurance, rent, any other overheads?
(c) income is obviously the bottom point of setting up a firm, but it has never been the major driving force in my life. Of course, earning €50,000 in my job over the past year has been great, but i could settle for €25,000 or €30,000 over the first couple of years until the place gets rolling.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially in respect of (c) as i suspect some might even think earning €30,000 in a newly establshed firm could be seen as pie in the sky figures....

Amazotheamazing

robskiola wrote: »

I'm facing a similar, although slightly more difficult, predicament. I've only been qualified one year and am now facing redundancy come 2009. A friend has approached me, looking to start up a firm and has been feeling me out to see if i would be interested in starting up with her, with me acting in the litigation role (where my experience to date has been in) whereas she'll be in the commercial/conveyancing role. I'm not certain what to do though. This thread doesn't give me much encouragement either. We would ostensibly be operating out of the north west. The fears though are simply:
(a) am i experienced enough? The majority of experience has been in the District Court. I imagine in terms of dealing in any other litigation matters in the higher courts, counsel could provide the guiding light i.e. if we can actually get clients in the door in the first place, of which i'm not certain of.
(b) how much does it really cost to run a firm, like the cost of insurance, rent, any other overheads?
(c) income is obviously the bottom point of setting up a firm, but it has never been the major driving force in my life. Of course, earning €50,000 in my job over the past year has been great, but i could settle for €25,000 or €30,000 over the first couple of years until the place gets rolling.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially in respect of (c) as i suspect some might even think earning €30,000 in a newly establshed firm could be seen as pie in the sky figures....

Be honest with yourself, are you good at what you do?

Counsel can only do so much for you, and not every client can afford counsel.

johnnyskeleton

robskiola wrote: »

I'm facing a similar, although slightly more difficult, predicament. I've only been qualified one year and am now facing redundancy come 2009. A friend has approached me, looking to start up a firm and has been feeling me out to see if i would be interested in starting up with her, with me acting in the litigation role (where my experience to date has been in) whereas she'll be in the commercial/conveyancing role. I'm not certain what to do though. This thread doesn't give me much encouragement either. We would ostensibly be operating out of the north west. The fears though are simply:
(a) am i experienced enough? The majority of experience has been in the District Court. I imagine in terms of dealing in any other litigation matters in the higher courts, counsel could provide the guiding light i.e. if we can actually get clients in the door in the first place, of which i'm not certain of.

It has been done, as long as you understand the risks. You'll have no problem getting counsel to act for you in the higher courts, but you still have to have a good grasp of how it all runs. Getting the business is the hardest part. Getting on well with the other local solicitors, the local judges, and the customers is the most important thing to worry about.

robskiola wrote: »

(b) how much does it really cost to run a firm, like the cost of insurance, rent, any other overheads?

A lot. Indemnity & practice cert about €15k for the two, rent, bills, running expenses, advertising. If your friend goes in with you and intends to do the inoffice stuff you can save on having a secretary etc.

robskiola wrote: »

(c) income is obviously the bottom point of setting up a firm, but it has never been the major driving force in my life. Of course, earning €50,000 in my job over the past year has been great, but i could settle for €25,000 or €30,000 over the first couple of years until the place gets rolling.

As with most start up businesses, expect to make a loss in the first few years. When you're self employed you eat what you kill so to speak. You could find yourself making a great income in the first year, making a loss in the second, making a small income in the third and then a massive one in the fourth. There is no certainty; if you take the risk you might lose a lot of money (so it's not for the faint hearted) but if you succeed you would be your own boss making decent money.

Maximilian

robskiola wrote: »

I'm facing a similar, although slightly more difficult, predicament. I've only been qualified one year and am now facing redundancy come 2009. A friend has approached me, looking to start up a firm and has been feeling me out to see if i would be interested in starting up with her, with me acting in the litigation role (where my experience to date has been in) whereas she'll be in the commercial/conveyancing role. I'm not certain what to do though. This thread doesn't give me much encouragement either. We would ostensibly be operating out of the north west. The fears though are simply:
(a) am i experienced enough? The majority of experience has been in the District Court. I imagine in terms of dealing in any other litigation matters in the higher courts, counsel could provide the guiding light i.e. if we can actually get clients in the door in the first place, of which i'm not certain of.
(b) how much does it really cost to run a firm, like the cost of insurance, rent, any other overheads?
(c) income is obviously the bottom point of setting up a firm, but it has never been the major driving force in my life. Of course, earning €50,000 in my job over the past year has been great, but i could settle for €25,000 or €30,000 over the first couple of years until the place gets rolling.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially in respect of (c) as i suspect some might even think earning €30,000 in a newly establshed firm could be seen as pie in the sky figures....

I think going out on your own with just one year's experience is not a good idea to be completely honest. I think you really need 4 or 5 years under your belt minimum before you could even consider it. I've remember one instance where a firm got in trouble and the main reason cited for his firm's failure was that the person simply was too inexperienced when he set up and didn't really know what he was doing. Mind you, he was dishonest as well.

There are still things to learn for you at this stage, even if you may not realise it. Secondly, a couple more years would help you establish relationships with clients who might follow you if you then set up on your own.

As for money, if you are going to be practising mainly in litigation, then you are going to have to wait until the conclusion of cases before you get paid. Cashflow will be an issue. Litigation is not as an immediate income stream as say conveyancing is. I have some great potential clients but I'm still really worried there may not be enough work to keep me going, assuming I get it.

If you do decide to do this then best of luck but I don't think it's a good idea (yet). Sorry to be so negative but I hope you appreciate the honesty.

dazza21ie

robskiola wrote: »

[The fears though are simply:
(a) am i experienced enough? The majority of experience has been in the District Court. I imagine in terms of dealing in any other litigation matters in the higher courts, counsel could provide the guiding light i.e. if we can actually get clients in the door in the first place, of which i'm not certain of.
(b) how much does it really cost to run a firm, like the cost of insurance, rent, any other overheads?
(c) income is obviously the bottom point of setting up a firm, but it has never been the major driving force in my life. Of course, earning €50,000 in my job over the past year has been great, but i could settle for €25,000 or €30,000 over the first couple of years until the place gets rolling.

Any comments would be appreciated, especially in respect of (c) as i suspect some might even think earning €30,000 in a newly establshed firm could be seen as pie in the sky figures....

If you are asking the above questions then I would not advise setting up a new practice just yet. You don't seem to have done any research on the matter e.g. enquiring about overheads, possible incomes etc, obviously you haven't prepared budgets etc. Personally if i was setting up i would spend at least six months in preparation so that i would have a clear picture of what i was getting myself into. I would only consider taking over an existing practice in the current environment if the opportunity arose. An existing practice may not have much new work going through it but there is always the cases that have being going on for years and probate files that are winding up that could keep you going until work picks up.

robskiola

There are still things to learn for you at this stage, even if you may not realise it. Secondly, a couple more years would help you establish relationships with clients who might follow you if you then set up on your own.

I agree with you completely and as you're aware this is a profession where you're continously learning and if I had the choice, I would most certainly wait a few more years. However, with the downturn and the lack of any firms now hiring in the litigation sphere (unless you have four-five years experience) then my options seem to be boiling down between (a) being unemployed or; (b) going on my own. I fortunately have a little capital at home and not too many personal debts (i.e. no mortgage) which would help with the situation. Plus, while my family is not legally linked, we do have a familiar name and hopefully that would bring at least some clients in. Obviously the more experience the better, but how does one gain experience when no-one is hiring in a downturn like this. I suppose, just for arguments sake, another avenue I could consider is to have a firm hire hire me and accept an extremely low salary which would provide some income, while increasing my experience. Although even this might not be a possibility.

As for money, if you are going to be practising mainly in litigation, then you are going to have to wait until the conclusion of cases before you get paid. Cashflow will be an issue. Litigation is not as an immediate income stream as say conveyancing is. I have some great potential clients but I'm still really worried there may not be enough work to keep me going, assuming I get it.

If you do decide to do this then best of luck but I don't think it's a good idea (yet). Sorry to be so negative but I hope you appreciate the honesty.[/quote]

I of course appreciate the criticism of the venture as it is hardly a fool-proof plan. However, I'm still a believer that with my good knowledge of the law, good materials and resources and putting in the hours with a diligent and strong work ethic I could eke out some sort of a living. I know the gravy train is gone, but clearly that doesn't mean I should give up on something that I've worked for for so long and which I know I'm good at (although a little inexperienced).

dazza21ie

As they say fortune favours the brave. I would sound out others in the area that might be in a similar position like yourself. There is no point setting up in a town and having 3 other people set up opposite you along with the established firms. I know quite a few who have been let go recently and a couple that are due to qualify are considering setting up and there is a danger that the area could become swamped.

TheDemiurge

Just saw the recent posts on this thread. Was overseas scouting out any opportunities connected to my legal experience to date.

I know my answer is predictable but it is this - don't set up on your own in the present climate. There is no business. I felt exactly like the newbies on this thread a few years ago. Sadly, a good knowledge of the law and a diligent work ethic means jack s**t in the current climate. Clients are total b*****ds who think your work is just form filling and no price is low enough for them. You would need to be doing at least 150 conveyances per year to bring in around 120k in the present market in Dublin/Meath/Louth and to be blunt a new practice will not get this volume of work. I have to be careful what I say but suffice that to say one of the leading providers of discount conveyancing in Dublin with an extremely high profile is getting no new telephone calls at all for quotes. The banks aren't lending, and if they're not, you're out of the game.

My practice is in tatters as my client base was cut into by practices offering below cost selling in conveyancing. As a new practice you will come to realise that conveyancing is the only way of getting cash flow coming in and you will start to resent doing it for virtually free. All new practices fall into this trap. There are too many solicitors firms as it is - every street corner has at least two or three - and litigation takes far too long to get paid. District Court isn't worth the paper it's written on in terms of fees, unless you have a massive caseload that you shift quickly. The only firms doing ok are those unwieldy conglomerates acting for large companies or state quangos, and even they are merging together on a daily rate to share costs and overheads. Anyone acting for the middle classes who don't qualify for legal aid is shagged.

PI insurance is soaring this year because so many of the underwriters have gone out of the market. Malicious claims against solicitors are soaring as well, instigated by opportunistic "clients" out to make a quick buck against insured solicitors in the current witch hunting climate against the legal profession. What's happening here now is what happened in the UK to solicitors over the last two to three years, and also the Australian legal profession. Talk to someone qualified and working in those jurisdictions and they'll give it to you straight.

I'm planning on vacating my office that I've had for five years and taking a secretarial job come January, winding down what I have, and ultimately moving into a separate industry.

To quote a famous movie line: I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!!

johnnyskeleton

TheDemiurge wrote: »

Just saw the recent posts on this thread. Was overseas scouting out any opportunities connected to my legal experience to date.

Why do you feel the need to constantly refer to your "legal experience" as though the more you say it the better your argument becomes? Also, why do you assume that all other posters are newbies?

I know my answer is predictable but it is this - don't set up on your own in the present climate. There is no business.

That's a sweeping statement, and to be honest, it sounds exactly like the advice given to prospective barristers each year - there are too many barristers and there's no work going. Yet still there are young barristers who go on to do very well all the time. While you can certainly argue that setting up on your own is risky and you wouldn't recommend it unless the person is very confident of their abilities (which most posters here would agree with), to simply state don't do it is a real blunderbuss attitude. The people who say there are too many barristers and not enough work are usually more senior barristers who, consciously or otherwise, want to warn off the competition. To be honest, this sounds like your attitude also.

Clients are total b*****ds who think your work is just form filling and no price is low enough for them. You would need to be doing at least 150 conveyances per year to bring in around 120k in the present market in Dublin/Meath/Louth and to be blunt a new practice will not get this volume of work. I have to be careful what I say but suffice that to say one of the leading providers of discount conveyancing in Dublin with an extremely high profile is getting no new telephone calls at all for quotes. The banks aren't lending, and if they're not, you're out of the game.

You're looking at it from the point of view of a conveyancing solicitor, so it is understandable that you have no work and so therefore presume that others have no work either.

My practice is in tatters as my client base was cut into by practices offering below cost selling in conveyancing.

Below cost? As in, they do it for less than the cost of outlay? I've never heard of anyone offering an all in conveyance for €100 or so.

As a new practice you will come to realise that conveyancing is the only way of getting cash flow coming in and you will start to resent doing it for virtually free.

As a new conveyancing practice maybe, but other solicitors do other work. People are still dying, litigating, committing crimes and getting divorced.

All new practices fall into this trap. There are too many solicitors firms as it is - every street corner has at least two or three - and litigation takes far too long to get paid.

How many is too many? It seems clear that you think that the right amount of solicitors is restrictive enough to guarantee you a healthy income.

District Court isn't worth the paper it's written on in terms of fees, unless you have a massive caseload that you shift quickly.

2 a day will not only pay your overheads but will give you a decent salary. Then there's the rest of your practice.

To quote a famous movie line: I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!!

Indeed. And you're hell bent on convincing everyone else to think like you.

nuac

As a solicitor with 30+ years of self employed experience I broadly agree with The Demiurge's assessment of the current position.

There are a lot of matters around to keep a lawyer busy, but many such cases do not pay enough to cover all the overhead of providing the service.

TheDemiurge

nuac wrote: »

As a solicitor with 30+ years of self employed experience I broadly agree with The Demiurge's assessment of the current position.

There are a lot of matters around to keep a lawyer busy, but many such cases do not pay enough to cover all the overhead of providing the service.

Thanks Nuac. It's amazing, all I'm trying to do is stop people falling into the traps that I fell into, along with countless colleagues who are in dire financial straits, and no one wants to listen.