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Child Item

B12

cozmik

An interesting piece on CBC radio

As we age, our brains shrink by about half-a-percent a year for the average elderly person double that for anyone with a mild cognitive impairment and about two percent a year for people with Alzheimer's. Until now, that's just the way it was an unpleasant but unavoidable fact of life. But according to a study in the current issue of the Journal of Neurology, you might be able to do something to slow that process. The study found that elderly people with high levels of Vitamin B-12 in their blood experienced a slower rate of brain shrinkage. And that's where the controversy comes in. The most common sources of B-12 are meat, fish and milk. And that's a problem for vegetarians and vegans.

Listen to the report: http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2008/200809/20080922.html

The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

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[Deleted User]

Personally I am sceptical of studies. Particularly when you are talking about one study with a small sample size.

However I'm tracking my nutrition via an online diary.
So many things are fortified with B12 these days, that I don't have any issues with particular nutrient.

cozmik

Fortification has benefits, I just wouldn't use it as a replacement for real nutrition.

There is increasing evidence that food broken down into its component parts and then reassembling as processed food is less nutritious than conventional food. It has been shown that ingredients isolated in laboratories do not function in the same way they do in whole foods.

The Center for Science in the Public Interest warns that too often manufacturer claims about functional ingredients are “misleading and unsubstantiated by scientific evidence,” and until governments establish adequate regulatory controls “functional foods may merely amount to little more than 21st Century quackery.”

Even the nutritionists and industry experts who contribute to Food Technology, the leading industry journal, caution that the “single-nutrient approach is too simplistic.”

Food, it appears, is more than the sum of its chemical parts, therefore treating it as collections of single nutrients to be mixed and matched, rather than as the complex biological system it is, simply may not work.

It is true, however, that food fortification for some nutrients does work. The fluoridation of drinking water in the U.S. has helped prevent tooth decay, vitamin-D fortified milk has eliminated rickets, iodized salt reduced goiter, and niacin-enriched flour, pellagra.

The increased fortification of these nutrients has very effectively prevented deficiencies of the nutrients added and eliminated a number of sources of disease. Yet, in complex matters of public health, it is often difficult to isolate single causal explanations. For example, is impossible to know precisely how effective niacin fortification has been in the reduction of pellagra deaths in the 1940s since the decrease corresponds with changes in social and economic mobility, food safety, and food availability. If more people were eating healthier, more nutritious diets anyway, it is difficult to explain the reduction of the disease exclusively by niacin fortification.

The situation is similar today with grain products fortified with folic acid to reduce the number of infants born with neural tube defects (anencephaly and spina bifida). On the one hand, higher levels of folate are now present in adults in the U.S. since fortification began in the 1980s, and fewer babies have been born with birth defects. On the other hand, the public is already more informed about the link between diet and fetal health – especially wealthier, more educated members of society. It is difficult to determine the effects of fortification on people who are already concerned about maintaining a healthy diet. Other causal factors may explain the reduction in birth defects.

Some nutritionists worry that the single-nutrient approach drives functional food research and marketing, misleading the public to believe that there are dietary magic bullets in their food that will ensure a healthy diet regardless of what they eat. Enhancing food with dietary supplements is a quick techno-fix for more complicated issues of dietary patterns, lifestyle, and public health.

http://humanitiespolicy.unt.edu/topics/our_work/What's%20Wrong%20with%20Functional%20Foods.pdf

Nature Boy

What about the b12 in Marmite? Where does that come from?

[Deleted User]

cozmik wrote: »

Fortification has benefits, I just wouldn't use it as a replacement for real nutrition.

http://humanitiespolicy.unt.edu/topics/our_work/What's%20Wrong%20with%20Functional%20Foods.pdf

The link you provide talks about disregarding the whole picture by focusing one element. It doesn't imply that fortification doesn't have "real" nutritional value.

Most of my B12 comes from Cottage cheese and milled seeds btw.

cozmik

Nature Boy wrote: »

What about the b12 in Marmite? Where does that come from?

It's grown in a laboratory.

Nature Boy

Mmmmmmmmm laboratory vitamins

cozmik

Slaphead07

cozmik wrote: »

It's grown in a laboratory.

Is it not from brewers yeast?

Tar.Aldarion

b12 is not naturallly in meat or plants, it comes from bacteria. It's in mushrooms etc generally and you can wash it off.
Irish health association: "This vitamin appears in egg yolk,dairy products,yeast extracts and soya products. You can use B12 tablets or take spirulina,chlorella or blue algae which contain B12." beware of pseudo b12. There is nothing wrong with grown b12, it's the same thing.
Alos, folic acid does nearly everything b112 is needed for and in most cases it is a lack of folic that causes health problems.
"When sufficient folic acid is available, all known B-12 related deficiency syndromes normalize, save those narrowly connected with the B-12 dependent enzymes"(two of them)

It is in lots of things depending on growth. It is also 99% recycled within your body. If you don't eat any for decades you have a problem. Your brain cells die from 20, it doesn't matter, you make faster neural connections. Your brain failing is not what kills, not a problemin that respect.

cozmik

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with grown b12, it's the same thing.

On the topic of supplements in general, Dr Douglas Graham, in his book 'Nutrition and Athletic Performance', argues that supplementation has proven to be an inadequate and incomplete method of supplying nutrients as scientists cannot match nature's refined balances.

According to Dr. John Potter PhD, of Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, Seattle, "Food's magic is based on thousands of complex interactions of dozens of different phytochemicals which are difficult to recreate in pills. While 190 solid studies prove that fruit and vegetables benefit, supplements have only a smattering of evidence". Vitamins, minerals, hormones, etc. do not work in isolation, they work symbiotically. They work with other nutrients in order for their work to be carried out. When these highly complex substances are disturbed, their overall effectiveness can be reduced.

www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html

cozmik

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

b12 is not naturallly in meat or plants, it comes from bacteria.

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs.

Source: The Vegetarian Society

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

:rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

It's unfortunate for them that I know more than them about it?
'Only a smattering of evidence'...Lol.

There is also a difference between grown bacteria producing b12 and a synthesised vitamin. I like how you think your quote in the second post is contradicting me because they said that. Ween they say 'reliable', it means they have been ingesting that bacteria, it is working away in their tract. For plant based food you have to make sure of how they are grown and they do not have to be grown that way, ie, not reliable.

Simple fact: If you take fortified foods you do not get a deficiency in that vitamin.
It has been shown again and again to have removed deficencies from our society. Over 50 years in b12's case.

Feldman, Elaine B.; Berdanier, Carolyn D.; Dwyer, Johanna T. (2007). Handbook of Nutrition and Food, Second Edition.
http://www.wordtrade.com/science/lifescience/nutrition.htm#Berdanier

cozmik

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

I like how you think your quote in the second post is contradicting me because they said that.

I like how you think you know what I'm thinking! haha

Tar.Aldarion

How quaint.

cozmik

Just some food for thought for the undecideds here...

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/are-humans-meant-to-be-omnivores.html

Are humans meant to be omnivores?

Does the ideal human diet include animal products like meat, fish, cheese, eggs, and dairy products?

Or should the ideal diet be devoid of all animal products⎯a vegetarian diet?

Though the argument is distorted by modern food processing methods (e.g., factory farming, long-term administration of antibiotics), convenience foods, and pseudo-foods crafted by food manufacturers, there are, obviously, proponents of both extremes.

The Atkins’ diet, for instance, advocates unrestricted intake of animal products, regardless of production methods or curing (sausage and bacon). At the opposite extreme are diets like Ornish (Dr. Dean Ornish’s Program for Reversal of Heart Disease) and the experiences of Dr. Colin Campbell, articulated in his studies and book, The China Study, in which he lambasts animal products, including dairy, as triggers for cancer and heart disease.

So which end of the spectrum is correct? Or ideal?

For the sake of argument, let's put aside philosophical questions (like not wanting eat animal products because of aversion to killing any living being) or ethical concerns (inhumane treatment of farm animals, cruel slaughtering practices, etc.). Does the inclusion of animal products provide advantage? Disadvantage?

The traditional argument against animal products has been saturated fat. If we accept that we’ve demoted the saturated fat question to a place far down the list of importance (though this is yet another argument to discuss another time), several questions emerge:

• If humans were meant to be vegetarian, why do omega-3 fatty acids (mostly from wild game and fish) yield such substantial health benefits, including dramatic reduction in sudden death from heart disease?

• Why would vitamin K2 (from meats and milk, as well as fermented foods like natto and cheese), obtainable in only the tiniest amounts on a vegetarian diet, provide such significant benefits on bone and cardiovascular health?

• Why would vitamin B12 (from meats) be necessary to maintain a normal blood count, prevent anemia, keep homocysteine at bay, and lead to profound neurologic dysfunction when deficient?

Omega-3 fatty acids and vitamins K2 and B12 cannot be obtained in satisfactory quantities from a pure vegetarian diet. The consequences of deficiency are not measured in decades, but in a few years. The conclusion is unavoidable: Evolutionarily, humans are meant to consume at least some foods from animal sources.

That's not to say that we should gorge ourselves on animal products. Gout (excessive uric acid) and kidney stones are among the unhealthy consequences of excessive quantities of meats in our diets.

It pains me to say this, since I’ve always favored a vegetarian lifestyle, mostly because of philosophical concerns, as well as worries about the safety of our factory farm-raised livestock and rampant inhumane practices.

But, stepping back and objectively examining what nutritional approach appears to stack the odds in favor of optimal health, I believe that only one conclusion is possible: Humans are meant to be omnivorous, meant to consume some quantity of animal products in addition to vegetables, fruits, nuts, and other non-animal products.

Peanut

It's the "m" word again - "meant".

Anytime I read that people are "meant" to be this or that I suspect the writer is on a bit of a rant, to say the least.

The fact is that people are very versatile to adapting to many different diets - the evidence of this is clear when you look at the eating habits of different societies.

The author states that "Omega-3 fatty acids and vitamins K2 and B12 cannot be obtained in satisfactory quantities from a pure vegetarian diet.".

This appears to be completely and absurdly off the mark - for example there is enough B12 in 3 slices of cheese to satisfy an adults daily requirements, according to the vegsoc site. (0.5 µg x 3)

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

In relation to Vitamin K,
"Vitamin K2 (menaquinone, menatetrenone) is normally produced by bacteria in the intestines, and dietary deficiency is extremely rare unless the intestines are heavily damaged or are unable to absorb the molecule."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K

Fish oil is a reliable source of Omega 3 oils, however they are also present in sufficient quantities in seed and nut oils, and dairy products for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acids#Dietary_sources

Tar.Aldarion

But it's 'natural' to eat meat so we should do it, screw thinking!

Peanut

You're right, sorry it won't happen again

cozmik

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

But it's 'natural' to eat meat

Glad we agree on something.

cozmik

Peanut wrote: »

The author states that "Omega-3 fatty acids and vitamins K2 and B12 cannot be obtained in satisfactory quantities from a pure vegetarian diet.".

This appears to be completely and absurdly off the mark - for example there is enough B12 in 3 slices of cheese to satisfy an adults daily requirements, according to the vegsoc site. (0.5 µg x 3)

Well what does he mean by a pure vegetarian diet? that's what I'd like to know.

The vegsoc say

The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

They say plant foods , cheese obviously is not a plant food which leads me to believe that when he says a pure vegetarian diet he's talking about one that does not include any animal produce.

Tar.Aldarion

It's easy to get plant foods that have b12 in them, it's not reliable because not all plants have b12 in them, you have to look up their growing conditions or test them for b12.
Although he says 'pure' vegetarian diet and you claim to know what he is thinking

, the definition of a pure vegetarian diet still includes the possibility of animal products. Does he not know the word vegan then?

cozmik

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

Although he says 'pure' vegetarian diet and you claim to know what he is thinking ,

No I did not claim to know what he's thinking. That's your forte not mine

Emerald Lass

On the B12 debate, consider this. I have what is called 'pernicious anaemia'. It is a B12 deficiency which is hereditry. For years and years I was told that my B12 deficiency was due to my veggie diet. Basically I was told to suck it up, and eat meat as that is all that will cure my anaemia! But in my heart of hearts i just felt that there was more to it than that.

Roll on a few years and my sister starts getting tingling sensations in her arms, pins and needles, circulatory probs and tiredness. She gets a loads of tests done, one of them being a 'schilling test'. The test revealed that she had a B12 deficiency, and further tests showed that is was due to a inability for her system to absorb the B12 via food, or vitamin capsules. It sis not matter how much B12 she consumed in her diet, it simply would not get absorbed in aequate levels.

She is a meat eater, when they found out she had B12 deficiency, they did not automatically say, oh its your diet. They gave her B12 tablets and when she still had a deficiency they did more tests.

As a result of her experience, I went back to the doctor (a new doctor) armed with my evidence that my sister has this complaint, so it may be that I also have it, and that its not just because I'm veggie. Tests confirmed I also have it. NO AMOUNT of B12 in my diet will help much, as my system is not able to absorb it that via diet. Both me and my sis get bi-monthly injections of B12.

My current doctor tells me that he has currently 10 patients who need B12 jabs - not all of them have pernicious anaemia, some just have poor diets or others health probs and the B12 give an energy boost to them. Of those 10 patients, I am the ONLY veggie.

So it seems that meat eaters too suffer from inadequate levels of B12. But the medical profession still has the old fashioned belief that if you are veggie, and have low energy then it MUST be due to your diet. Thankfully my current doctor is a lot more enlightened, and as far as diet goes he says mine is one of the healthiest he has seen recently (he made me keep a food diary for a while). So eating meat may help increase B12, but not if you cook the hell out of it. Likewise, eat all the meat you like, but some women will still have low B12 levels due to heavy menstruation. It's not very practical to tell them to eat a big bloody steak each day of their period, is it? much more beneficial to let them know what other foods will help them get the B12, surely?

sweet-rasmus

That's really interesting Emerald Lass. It's good to hear about and something to watch out for, knowing now that it is a known condition.

Glad to hear you resolved this with your doctor in the end, with all your persistance

Nature Boy

Interesting post. I think you should sue your doctor!

ZYX

Emerald Lass wrote: »

it that via diet. Both me and my sis get bi-monthly injections of B12.

My current doctor tells me that he has currently 10 patients who need B12 jabs - not all of them have pernicious anaemia, some just have poor diets or others health probs and the B12 give an energy boost to them. Of those 10 patients, I am the ONLY veggie.

So it seems that meat eaters too suffer from inadequate levels of B12. But the medical profession still has the old fashioned belief that if you are veggie, and have low energy then it MUST be due to your diet. Thankfully my current doctor is a lot more enlightened, and as far as diet goes he says mine is one of the healthiest he has seen recently (he made me keep a food diary for a while). So eating meat may help increase B12, but not if you cook the hell out of it. Likewise, eat all the meat you like, but some women will still have low B12 levels due to heavy menstruation. It's not very practical to tell them to eat a big bloody steak each day of their period, is it? much more beneficial to let them know what other foods will help them get the B12, surely?

I would not be too sure about your Dr in general. Why is he/she giving B12 injections to people who do not have pernicious anaemia. They should have oral B12 or simply make dietary adjustments.

electrofilth

cozmik wrote: »

Well what does he mean by a pure vegetarian diet? that's what I'd like to know.

The vegsoc say

They say plant foods , cheese obviously is not a plant food which leads me to believe that when he says a pure vegetarian diet he's talking about one that does not include any animal produce.

pure vegetarian means vegan ie. someone who does not eat any form of animal or any of its derivitives, inc. no dairy, no eggs nothing that has anything in it that once came from an animal. some vegans include this to mean insects too, as in no honey or no wines that use insects in the fermenting process. "pure vegetarian" is more commonly used in asian countries, as vegetarian there usually means vegan. A lot of Buddhist monks are "pure vegetarians" yet refer to themselves as "vegetarian" and not vegan . I encountered this too in menus in Vietnam and Thailand when eating out.

I will further explain the term "pure" vegetarian and the angle that Buddhist monks come from in their noble quest to cease all suffering of sentient beings...
I know a few people who think it makes more sense to be "pure vegetarian" or vegan as in if you truly believe in the non-suffering of animals, being simply vegetarian and avoiding meat and fish doesn't quiet guarantee that your cheese,eggs,milk or any similar products are "karma free". So, in a sense being vegetarian for ethical reasons is only going halfway there,unless you personally raise all your dairy animals to the highest standards.

something else interesting about b12
b12 is absorbable in minute quantities. If animals were to graze on land and the bacteria (thats where b12 comes from) from them ran into a water source like a river (this is common) and that water product ended up in a food product or drinking supply then the b12 can still be absorbed by a human. The above is more common in countries like india where water safety standards would not be as good as in Western countries.

cozmik

An interesting post there, electrofilth. Thanks for sharing.

Censorsh!t

Brain shrinkage has nothing to do with intelligence.
And also, you can get B12 in cereals

cozmik

Censorsh!t wrote: »

Brain shrinkage has nothing to do with intelligence.

Dr Susanne Sorensen, head of research at the Alzheimer's Society, said brain shrinkage was usually associated with the development of dementia.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/vitamin-b12-may-protect-brain-says-report-923882.html