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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

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invincibleirish

The N20 needs to be replaced or upgraded it is dangerous, slow and twisty. What option you think is best will depend on your own reading of things but to adopt the parochial hat after looking at the M9, WRC etc and you say to yourself why not?

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

The N20 needs to be replaced or upgraded it is dangerous, slow and twisty. What option you think is best will depend on your own reading of things but to adopt the parochial hat after looking at the M9, WRC etc and you say to yourself why not?

I agree, the N20 is in a deplorable state and even if a motorway was to built parallel, it would still need to be sorted out in some sections.

Suggestions I've heard include upgrading to 2+1 road (eugh - hideous creations), improving the Cork to Limerick rail service (probably the best non-motorway alternative), increasing the frequency of coaches (but that requires an upgrade of road infanstructure) and then having everybody cycle or walk between the two cities (limited to a few ultra eco-hippies luckily.)

Chris_533976

N20 needs upgrading urgently, at least between Mallow and Croom. May as well do the whole lot.

As for motorway? Well we get one chance to build this thing so lets do it properly. It'll take more traffic than the middle portions of the interurbans which are motorway.

What would the alternatives be? 2+2 doesnt hack it for the connection between the 2nd and 3rd cities on the island. 2+1 is a joke, Wide S2??? No thanks.

Motorway for definate.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N20 needs upgrading urgently, at least between Mallow and Croom. May as well do the whole lot.

As for motorway? Well we get one chance to build this thing so lets do it properly. It'll take more traffic than the middle portions of the interurbans which are motorway.

What would the alternatives be? 2+2 doesnt hack it for the connection between the 2nd and 3rd cities on the island. 2+1 is a joke, Wide S2??? No thanks.

Motorway for definate.

Agreed.

In most other developed countries, the second and third cities have a good motorway link, as well as decent rail and bus services.

2+2, better than 2+1, but I only agree with it when it's retro-fitted. Building a 2+2 through a greenfield site feels like a waste-of-money when you could just as easily (in most cases) build a proper dual carriageway.

2+1 - where do I begin with what's wrong with these. First of all it's impossible to drive at night because the barrior keeps 'flicking' reflected light in your face. The roads feel too narrow. There's no median gaps making it impossible to get from A to B across the road. Basically it combines the worst elements of all road types into one hellish creation.

Wide S2 - as a principal link between our second and third cities? Get real.

I guess, after (not) much deliberation. A motorway link is the best option!!! They may as well provide a permanent solution.

GET CRACKING NRA!!!

Amtmann

Many trendy professional planners and Greens will say "No". In fairness, public transport should be the priority.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't build an M20 too. I think we should. Well actually, I don't.

Let me clarify: I think there definitely ought to be a motorway between Cork and Limerick. Ideally I'd have this as an off-shoot of the M8 close to Mitchelstown. Geographically it's a shorter distance, but there are mountains in the way. In any case, that particular preference is not going to happen, not least because it would kill the Atlantic Corridor idea. The M20, if built, will shadow the N20.

I think it should definitely be a motorway, preferably toll-free. The N20 is a truly treacherous road in places (just last week it was closed for hours because a lorry keeled over on it) and Charleville, Buttevant, Mallow, etc need a proper bypass. And just because traffic volumes won't approach anywhere near a motorway's true capacity is not an excuse to not build it.

Why?

Because the main concern should always be safety. It is a fact that the N20 is a busy yet substandard road linking two cities. That makes it dangerous. Replacing it with a motorway will make it far safer, even if the new road is travelled less than its design allows for. I sometimes look at the new M8 and think that it's very empty, but the point is a) that it's safe; and b) that we don't want our motorways crammed full to capacity anyway.

Build it asap: while the builders are down, we'll get a good deal.

By the way, I agree that 2+1 is a bad idea. How would you change a tyre on a 2+1? I think they're dangerous, and not nearly as efficient as their proponents claim.

E92

It absolutely and completely is necessary.

11 years ago we thought on the main roads to Dublin that a mere single carriageway was good enough for a bypass(Nenagh as an example), and similarly back in 1997 a mere single carriageway was good enough for bypassing Croom on the N20.

Now, the Nenagh bypass already has to be upgraded to Dual Carriageway, but because we didn't do it right first time, it'll only be capable of 100 km/h, while the rest of the road is capable of a more respectable 120 km/h.

If we don't build a motorway this time on Cork to Limerick, then we will end up doing what we had to do with Nenagh, and even then we still won't have a road capable of 120, so let's do the job right and build it as a full blown 120 km/h capable motorway from the start.

No good 10 or 15 years time saying that we now need to upgrade the road again from say 2+1 or 2+2(as some propose) to DC because the traffic volumes have increased, we may not necessarily need a motorway from Cork to Limerick at the moment, but we sure as hell will need one in the future as if we don't already.

Cork - Limerick is a disgrace for a road that is supposed to be connecting the second and third biggest cities in this country.

And if Limerick-Galway can get DC(and HQDC from Ennis on, thouh presumably that will be re-classified to Motorway under the next batch of roads to be changed by the NRA), then how the hell does it make sense to say that Cork-Limerick can't get the same standard?

We need a proper national Motorway network, not just Dublin to the major cities and towns if we are to have any hope in attracting jobs, and crucially to cut down on the number of deaths on the roads we have.

murphaph

M20 for me.

1) The N20 is totally substandard and unfit for purpose so we are not in a "do nothing" position.

2) All the towns along the N20 need bypassing anyway.

3) Joining up the bypasses of these towns by online upgrades of a horrendously twisty and narrow road would cost a fortune and lots of disruption during construction.

4) The end result of an offline motorway gives more freedom in route selection and a motorway delivers real safety and environmental benefits-yes, a motorway as opposed to a cart track passing through every small town can be more beneficial to the environment!

If the N20 was even a half decent road with a couple of bypasses I would probably not be in favour of full-blown motorway, but seeing as virtually nothing has been done to the N20 we may as well forget about it and build offline.

In any case, I do believe the Atlantic Corridor should be completed at least from Cork to Tuam (and preferably on to Sligo and into Northern Ireland).

Now can I get support for removing the Westlink toll on the M50 from you culchies?

DWCommuter

A HQDC yes. Don't see the need for a "motorway" in its purest form. The N25 needs a HQDC treatment aswell.

But it won't happen anyway as a few dodgey credit people in the US bombed out the subprime market and now Ireland Inc is ****ed. (oh and the governance in lil ould eire wasn't up to much either.)

strassenwolf

Chris_533976 wrote: »

What would the alternatives be? 2+2 doesnt hack it for the connection between the 2nd and 3rd cities on the island. 2+1 is a joke, Wide S2??? No thanks.

Erm, Chris, this thread is about the Cork-Limerick connection, not Belfast-Cork.

mysterious

DWCommuter wrote: »

A HQDC yes. Don't see the need for a "motorway" in its purest form. The N25 needs a HQDC treatment aswell.

But it won't happen anyway as a few dodgey credit people in the US bombed out the subprime market and now Ireland Inc is ****ed. (oh and the governance in lil ould eire wasn't up to much either.)

RIGHT, what a silly post :rolleyes: firstly.

HQDC IS a motorway, the only difference HQDC allows cyclist's and tractors on it etc, where as motorways have the regular motorway rules. HQDC is the same as a motorway in every other aspect. It practically is a motorway really.

Have you got that? good.
Dont talk nonsense if you dont know what your really saying please

It misleads others. I dont like that.
God, this wrecks my head, "we dont need a motorways in its purest forms", what are we talking about breed of dogs ffs??

Back on topic.
Yes this motorway is badly needed. The current N20 is deteriorating at a rapid pace. It has been heavily underfunded since the early 90s. The only improvment was the Rathduff - Mallow 2+1 scheme. Which is now officially a waste of money. The N20 for most of its lengths is among the worst National roads in the country. This route doesnt only connect Ireland's 3rd and fourth cities. It connect the whole western seaboard and major cities of the west coast. It connect too, 3 Irish Ports, 2 international airports as well. This road should be a high priority.

If they are going to upgrade. Offline motorway, much the same as the current ones under contruction at present.

Surely this motorway is fairly cheap if its fairly short in lenght, and for the most part the land would be very cheap too? What is the current price ratios for this project, and how long do they tend to wait prior to contruction??

loyatemu

In terms of simply linking Cork and Limerick (they may be the 2nd and 3rd biggest in the Republic, but LMK in particular is little more than a large town in European terms) - the obvious route seems to be an extension of the M8 where it dog-legs at Mitchelstown. Not sure of the terrain - there seems to be a route between the Galtee and (googles) Ballyhoura mountains.

However, that depends on how much of the N20 traffic is actually going from Cork to Limerick - i'd imagine a lot is actually generated by the towns along the route.

D.L.R.

We need the M20. If the traffic volumes don't justify it, then it should be built on the basis of regional development for the future. No point building anything less than motorway. Both cities will benefit enormously from it.

There is a case for routing it off the M8 at Mitchelstown but I think that ship has sailed. There are a few questionable routing options on our motorway network as a whole, but the country being the size it is makes that a relatively minor issue.

Run_to_da_hills

The N20 is a dangerous mess, lethal for motorcyclists with deadly cable barriers and twisty bends. I was only on this road last monday week and came across an articulated truck on its side between Mallow and Charleville.

icdg

mysterious wrote: »

RIGHT, what a silly post :rolleyes: firstly.

HQDC IS a motorway, the only difference HQDC allows cyclist's and tractors on it etc, where as motorways have the regular motorway rules. HQDC is the same as a motorway in every other aspect. It practically is a motorway really.

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Amtmann

icdg wrote: »

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Out of curiosity, what is the design difference between a HQDC/motorway on the one hand and a standard dual carriageway like the Cashel Bypass on the other?

The Ennis Bypass certainly looks like it could have been designed for a speed of 120kph.

icdg wrote: »

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Couldn't the Gorey by-pass be designated a motorway with a 100 km/hr speed limit? Basically to stop direct access to the road ( through some dodgy granting of planning permission in the future (you'd have to get rid of the rest areas etc))

BluntGuy

icdg wrote: »

The problem is that some people have taken to calling roads like the Ennis Bypass and Gorey Bypass HQDCs too. They aren't. They're standard dual carriageways which happen to be fully grade seperated. These roads are only built with 100 km/h design speeds and can have LILO junctions too as well as GSJs.

Well I'm hoping they get re-designated before some people start to have 'ideas' about putting direct accesses onto them.

murphaph

Furet wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what is the design difference between a HQDC/motorway on the one hand and a standard dual carriageway like the Cashel Bypass on the other?

Sightlines (vertical and horizontal!) mostly. The geometry of the motorway is such that you can see further along the road, therefore can travel faster while still being able to stop in the distance which you can see to be clear.

Exits on motorways (and HQDCs-they are the same apart from the lines, signage and emergency phones) are typically designed for higher speeds, ie, they allow you to leave the main carriageway at full design speed (120) and decellerate on the off-slip itself, whereas a standard dual carriageway with grade separated exits may require a certain amount of the decelerating to be done on the mainline-evident on some of the exits on the upgraded N7 from Rathcoole to Naas for example).

D.L.R.

that bloody N7! will it ever be motorway :rolleyes:

darkman2

The M20. Is it nessacary?

Yes but the world is ending on Wednesday anyway - so it wont cost us anything.;)

Next!:)

Cool Mo D

If you ever drive the Ennis bypass, keep an eye out for some of the slip roads - they are incredibly tight, so have to be taken at low (max 50kph -ish), with very short distances to get up to speed. This is why it's not a HQDC. This isn't so much the case on the N85 junction, but is on the Barefield and Tulla road exits.
Once your on the road though, it does feel like a proper motorway.

Gonzo

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

Lennoxschips

BluntGuy wrote: »

Agreed.

In most other developed countries, the second and third cities have a good motorway link

Yes, and they also have an efficiently laid out motorway system that combines as many routes as possible.

Ireland is following a plan of motorways from everywhere to everywhere.

Let me put it this way, if Ireland had built it's motorways efficiently, then the Limerick-Cork route would already have been done.

Lennoxschips

If you ever drive the Ennis bypass, keep an eye out for some of the slip roads - they are incredibly tight, so have to be taken at low (max 50kph -ish), with very short distances to get up to speed. This is why it's not a HQDC.

Most of the German autobahns are like that, they have no problems classifying them as motorway, let alone HQDC.

murphaph

Gonzo wrote: »

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

...however, unlike our british and continental cousins, we spent almost nothing on piecemeal upgrades of existing routes. Put it another way-the UK (etc.) turned to motorways after they'd upgraded much of their trunk network with bypasses, widenings and realignments. We did very little in cmparison so have in effect skipped a stage and gone straight to motorways for routes that in the UK would have been upgraded to an acceptable standard by now. So we have a choice-upgrade such routes piecemeal or go further and build new parallel offline routes (motorways primarily). Ireland is also a bit different in that we allowed masses of ribbon development along national routes to the extent that widenings become prohibitively expensive and new-build is cheaper sometimes (just land cost-little or no demolition of dewellings and little or no traffic disruption durig build).

L1011

D.L.R. wrote: »

that bloody N7! will it ever be motorway :rolleyes:

Not while theres 5 petrol stations, two pubs, a few quarries, private houses, farms, numerous LILO junctions, a rather interesting case of twin LILOs with a bridge joining them, and so on along it... And thats only Newlands to the ball!

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Yes, and they also have an efficiently laid out motorway system that combines as many routes as possible.

Ireland is following a plan of motorways from everywhere to everywhere.

Let me put it this way, if Ireland had built it's motorways efficiently, then the Limerick-Cork route would already have been done.

The UK uses a trunk and branch approach like that with just 2 main routes north (M1 and M6) and consequently both motorways are choked and require constant widening but the biggest problem of this model is that a small incident can close half the north-south capacity in an instant. The Germans have a better idea with their planned grid which provides multiple routes for the same journey and consequently much (vast majority in fact) of the german network is D2M (2 lanes each side, unlike the UK where this is the exception rather than the rule).

In time there will be four viable routes from Cork to Dublin-M20-M7/M8-M7/M25-M9-M7/M25-N30-M11. This provides redundancy in case of incidents.

L1011

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Most of the German autobahns are like that, they have no problems classifying them as motorway, let alone HQDC.

They're also markedly better drivers than we are, to be honest. Put that standard of road as motorway in a country with Irish or worse (Slovak!!) standard of driving and there'd be high speed rear endings on motorway slips every day. I've even been rear-ended on a motorway slip as it is here!

Calina

BluntGuy wrote: »

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

I am of the opinion that motorway is called for at this stage. It is criminal that the route has been allowed to linger in the mess that it is in.

BluntGuy wrote: »

I agree, the N20 is in a deplorable state and even if a motorway was to built parallel, it would still need to be sorted out in some sections.

Agreed. Unfortunately the policy in Ireland appears to be do as little as possible, wait until your back is to a wall and there are two guns to your head before doing something about a comparatively easily rectifiable problem. Road surface is an example, road straightening less so. Elements of the N20 as it exists however scare me.

Furet wrote: »

Any professional planner or Green will say "No". In fairness, public transport should be the priority.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't build an M20 too. I think we should. Well actually, I don't.

Let me clarify: I think there definitely ought to be a motorway between Cork and Limerick. Ideally I'd have this as an off-shoot of the M8 close to Mitchelstown. Geographically it's a shorter distance, but there are mountains in the way. In any case, that particular preference is not going to happen, not least because it would kill the Atlantic Corridor idea. The M20, if built, will shadow the N20.

Public transport from Cork to Limerick is problematic. The rail route is via Limerick Junction currently and is not a fast or efficient way to move people or goods. The alternative being a bus system, the road has to be upgraded. Or you could straighten the rail route which although I am generally in favour of, I am not convinced that in this case, given that the road connection even in its current state is more efficient, is the more cost effective approach. Put simply, rail from Cork to Galway via Limerick will probably not offer much advantage over the existing road connections. For now.

I am not convinced that offshooting from the M8 is a practical idea because in any case, elements of the route are in such poor condition that that road would have to be widened or repaired anyway. Run a M20 and you will kill two birds with one stone. Plus, there is no point in wishing those hills away. It doesn't work like that.

I hope that a professional planner would not be blinded by ideology, whatever about a professional card carrying Green.

DWCommuter wrote: »

A HQDC yes. Don't see the need for a "motorway" in its purest form. The N25 needs a HQDC treatment aswell.

But it won't happen anyway as a few dodgey credit people in the US bombed out the subprime market and now Ireland Inc is ****ed. (oh and the governance in lil ould eire wasn't up to much either.)

offtopic/ this is a naive assessment of the situation. With respect to the fallout on Ireland Inc, it was caused by an overdependence on selling property to each other which was going to cause trouble even if the US credit market remained fine and dandy. If you want an honest assessment, the historically low interest rates were a bad idea and you can thank the Fed for that.

Utlimately I'm of the opinion that the route merits motorway treatment. It's an extremely busy route and unfortunately there are two bottlenecks on it and lots of small junctions. And I'm pretty sure there is at least one cattle crossing on it also. I'd like it to have motorway status if only to reduce direct access requirements on it.

loyatemu wrote: »

In terms of simply linking Cork and Limerick (they may be the 2nd and 3rd biggest in the Republic, but LMK in particular is little more than a large town in European terms) - the obvious route seems to be an extension of the M8 where it dog-legs at Mitchelstown. Not sure of the terrain - there seems to be a route between the Galtee and (googles) Ballyhoura mountains.

However, that depends on how much of the N20 traffic is actually going from Cork to Limerick - i'd imagine a lot is actually generated by the towns along the route.

A lot of N20 traffic in my experience is local towns to Cork and local towns to Limerick. It also carries a whole pile of traffic routing from Galway to Cork and vice versa. During the summer it takes a heavy amount of tourism traffic. It is also used occasionally as an alternative route from Dublin to Cork as the road from Dublin to Limerick is comparatively free absent a delay in Mountrath versus hold ups in Abbeyleix and Durrow and timewise can compare well to the N8 routing. I've done it myself.

D.L.R. wrote: »

We need the M20. If the traffic volumes don't justify it, then it should be built on the basis of regional development for the future. No point building anything less than motorway. Both cities will benefit enormously from it.

Forward planning. what a brilliant idea. Investing in the future. Fantastic.

Gonzo wrote: »

20 years ago we had barely 20km of motorways and cow-path roads linking all our towns, now we have motorways been built everywhere with tolls etc! The M20, M3, M17, M18, M9 and M6 are great upgrades and all but considering our small populations in our towns and low traffic volumes compared to European/uk towns/destinations, these motorway building schems are slightly over the top. The N3, N9 and N20 needed major upgrades in sections but dual carriageways would have been grand imo and could have saved us some money instead which could have been put into proper public transport.

I disagree. I appreciate the motorways, except the M50 of course, as they also allow me to use my time slightly more efficiently. In 7 years something like one hour is off my route to my parents place courtesy of not having to queue in Kildare, Monasterevin and Castletroy, plus a higher average speed long those roads.

We will not get proper public transport in this country for a long time because no one really knows what that involves. I also loathe this either/or approach which dictates either we build proper roads or we invest in proper public transport. I have spent too much of my time refereeing arguments on public transport here to go into in too much detail, but it is my view that the needs of the users are last to count. And - before this gets picked up on - not least by the various lobby organisations purporting to represent them.

murphaph wrote: »

....The Germans have a better idea with their planned grid which provides multiple routes for the same journey and consequently much (vast majority in fact) of the german network is D2M (2 lanes each side, unlike the UK where this is the exception rather than the rule).

In time there will be four viable routes from Cork to Dublin-M20-M7/M8-M7/M25-M9-M7/M25-N30-M11. This provides redundancy in case of incidents.

I like the way they've done it in France as well.

MYOB wrote: »

They're also markedly better drivers than we are, to be honest. Put that standard of road as motorway in a country with Irish or worse (Slovak!!) standard of driving and there'd be high speed rear endings on motorway slips every day. I've even been rear-ended on a motorway slip as it is here!

Necessity is the mother of adaptation. I think you'll find that our standard of driving might improve if we weren't collectively hopelessly infuriated by the substandard infrastructure all the time.

BluntGuy

Somebody made a good point about the German autobahn system.

I think that is the system we're going for in Ireland, and in my opinion it's a good idea.

The majority of German autobhans are simple D2M, just like all of our inter-urbans. But because of the variety and choice, they don't get blocked up.

In the UK, they have fewer but wider motorways. It's cheaper, but it creates congestion. Parts of the M1 have been upgraded to five-lane segments, which is ridiculous and suggests that an alternative route is needed for some traffic.

With our system, we probably will never end up with that problem.

Also, if further proof is needed that a wide network of D2Ms is appropiate, just look at the American inter-states. Most of them are D2M as well.