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Lisbon Treaty Referendum 2 - Return of the Gombeen Man

Hagar

Taoiseach not ruling out second Referendum

Vote Yes if you agree with the proposal.
Vote Yes if you don't agree with the proposal.

1984 came and nobody noticed.

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Fratton Fred

Villain wrote: »

How many times do the people of Ireland have to vote NO before the EU accept that the Lisbon treaty as it stands cannot be adopted?

What if the rest of Europe want to adopt the treaty as it stands and the Irish keep saying no? how long should 200m people have to be dictated to by the 800,000 Irish no voters?

is_that_so

oscarBravo wrote: »

Those would be the same opt-outs they're currently looking at holding a referendum to roll back?

We have opt-outs. I have yet to see a coherent response as to what form of the Lisbon treaty would be acceptable to the "no" voters who claim not to be Euroskeptics.

Yes they are and yes we do, however in my view everything should be explored. There may something within that Danish process that can offer solutions. In answer to the second comment I doubt we will see one. Positions appear to have become even more entrenched and the right to outrage seems to far outweigh any desire to engage beyond "No".

molloyjh

Villain wrote: »

The problem is the treaty is deliberatley designed to be over complicated and has areas which are open to legal argument, I have read large parts of the treaty and I understand these documents have to be complex and detailed for legal reasons, but I can read our constition a lot easier then this treaty, I'm not against the treaty but I don't understand it enough to be able to say yes I want to change our constitution so I voted no previously and unless we get declarations on all the topics which are not 100% clear cut I will vote again.

How many times do the people of Ireland have to vote NO before the EU accept that the Lisbon treaty as it stands cannot be adopted?

A Treaty, no matter what the Treaty, will never be as readable as a Constitution. As for Lisbon, it is a Treaty that by its nature has to refer to multiple other treaties which is only going to make it more complex.

You don't need to read the whole thing to understand it. There are non-biased summaries out there to do that for you. In GEs and other referenda we don't vote on the details, i.e. the exact detailed policies in each area the parties are going to implement or the articles of law in referenda, we vote on the summary.

Villain

Oh I'm not saying our Constitution is water tight but if you read it compared to the Lisbon treaty it's much easier to read and understand, obviously the treaty being a constitution for the entire EU is going to be longer, and be more complicated but imo the treaty has been over complicted deliberatley to ensure the ordinary voter can't understand it.

oscarBravo

Has there ever had to be a Supreme Court decision to interpret our wonderfully straightforward constitution?

Villain

The problem is the treaty is deliberatley designed to be over complicated and has areas which are open to legal argument, I have read large parts of the treaty and I understand these documents have to be complex and detailed for legal reasons, but I can read our constition a lot easier then this treaty, I'm not against the treaty but I don't understand it enough to be able to say yes I want to change our constitution so I voted no previously and unless we get declarations on all the topics which are not 100% clear cut I will vote again.

How many times do the people of Ireland have to vote NO before the EU accept that the Lisbon treaty as it stands cannot be adopted?

oscarBravo

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I voted Yes first time round. Whether I like it or not, the No side won and the EU should accept it.

...and do... what?

It's a serious question, and one I'd like to see answered seriously. If the attitude is that our "no" vote is the EU's problem, then we can't really complain if the EU does what it feels is necessary to solve that problem, even if it doesn't suit us.

If they force it again, unchanged, then it shows democracy isn't accepted in the EU.

How in the name of the gods is anything being "forced" when we're asked a yes/no question?

Drakmord wrote: »

I have a lot of friends who would vote no in the Lisbon treaty 2 if the fees were brought back.

Why don't those friends make their protest vote in a general election? I mean, they might as register a protest vote with a reality TV show phone-in poll as vote down a constitutional amendment just because they're unhappy with a government policy.

is_that_so wrote: »

1. Explore opt-outs ala the Danish Maastricht approach

Those would be the same opt-outs they're currently looking at holding a referendum to roll back?

We have opt-outs. I have yet to see a coherent response as to what form of the Lisbon treaty would be acceptable to the "no" voters who claim not to be Euroskeptics.

is_that_so

If he's asked the question often enough eventually he has to concede an answer and what else was that answer going to be. At this point there seems to be a three-pronged approach to this.
I also agree that the timing , coinciding with economic woes and of course the Bertie goodbye didn't help matters at all.

1. Explore opt-outs ala the Danish Maastricht approach
2. Get guarantees - as with Nice.
3. Legislate part of the the treaty that does not effect a constitutional change.

I do believe the proposition will be changed in some way but more along the lines of 1 & 2.
I am inclined to think they will have a go at 1 & 2 as I can't really see them risking the wrath of the electorate with 3, although as posted above our internal well-being may have improved when it comes around and we may be less inclined to punish them. Not sure how I feel about that myself but there is an inescapable logic to it.

Off-topic

I am mildly amused, through not surprised, that in this part of the internet the tantrums continue. In real life answers need to be found and jumping up and down is not going to make it otherwise.

sink

Drakmord wrote: »

I did the exam in Limerick and I'm from Cork.
I couldn't vote in Limerick and I had another exam to do the next day.
I couldn't travel to Cork as I had to study for the next exam.
Happy?

I'm not criticising you. But for future reference students who are studying away from home are allowed to register at the polling station where they study as well as home.

Drakmord

djpbarry wrote: »

The exam lasted the whole day, did it?

I did the exam in Limerick and I'm from Cork.
I couldn't vote in Limerick and I had another exam to do the next day.
I couldn't travel to Cork as I had to study for the next exam.
Happy?

djpbarry

dresden8 wrote: »

First the tame press come out and tell us how stupid we are and call for Cowen to do the brave thing and over-ride the result. Then the analysis as to why we're so stupid to have voted no. Pr1ck Roche then comes out and speaks in a personal basis. Which as a Minister in the government responsible for the issue, he cannot reasonably do.

Spurred on by his Ministers brave stand Cowen does indeed not rule out a second referendum.

Then there'll be som "Emperors new clothes" kind of deal where they will bang on for a few months about how "No" voters really were duped, gullible and idiotic. But God love them, we'll give them another chance to prove they're not stupid.

Then they'll bus every granny in the country to a polling station.

You’re a funny guy. Really.

Hagar wrote: »

With all due respect Fred your Govt didn't give the people of Britain the opportunity to vote.
Who can say what their vote would have been?

If the tenacity with which Britain has clung to its currency is anything to go by a "Yes" vote would have been by no means certain.

I’m not sure what your point is? We should vote ‘No’ because that’s what Britain would do?

landan wrote: »

Nobody noticed alright, sure they still think they have a say in what happens.

I have been hoping for a second referendum, although I am against anything EU.

In my opinion, even the most docile, compliant idiot will have to accept the fact that they are living in a dictatorship, no matter what Brian Dobson may tell you.

Thanks for that, Casey.

Drakmord wrote: »

To be honest I didn't vote in the Referendum as I had a leaving cert exam on the day.

The exam lasted the whole day, did it?

Fratton Fred

molloyjh wrote: »

I presume your sarcastic post was in addition to, and not in response to, my sarcastic post?

yes it was. I really must try and get the hang of this interweb thingamybob:D

molloyjh

HalloweenJack wrote: »

While I'll agree with those points, I am certain that a second referendum for an unchanged Lisbon would be voted down again. It'll give the No side too much ammo and they wouldn't have to work too hard to drum up support.

Probably true. That would be a case of people voting for something other than the matter at hand though which is counter to the whole point of democracy. Yet many of those people are doing so to, supposedly, protect democracy. Maybe it's me, but I can't understand that logic at all.

HalloweenJack

Drakmord wrote: »

It's easy to pass an EU treaty if the country is going well and the citizens are content, but if things are starting to go badly, issues become distorted and parties such as Sinn Fein gain power. Which, might I add is never a good thing. A lot of people voted yes because sinn fein said to vote no.

Drakmord wrote:

I really don't know how I'd vote in a second referendum. The yes vote seems to be a vote against democracy and the no side is aligned to Sinn Fein. Maybe I'd be better not to vote at all.

You shouldn't vote one way simply because you don't want to be associated with the people who vote the other way. You should vote on the issues at hand. It seems like you want to vote No, then do it. Don't worry about who else votes no.

Drakmord wrote:

To be honest I didn't vote in the Referendum as I had a leaving cert exam on the day. It really annoyed me that the voting day and the lc clashed as many lc students can vote now due to transition year.

It's classic Gov policy. Have the elections in May/June in the hope that college and Leaving students will be too busy to worry about voting. As a lot of them are first-time voters, they are an unreliable demographic.

molloyjh

Drakmord wrote: »

To be honest, I think the Lisbon treaty was rejected due to people becoming more and more dissatisfied with our internal affairs.
I'm just beginning college and the thought of fees coming back really scares me. I have a lot of friends who would vote no in the Lisbon treaty 2 if the fees were brought back.
It's easy to pass an EU treaty if the country is going well and the citizens are content, but if things are starting to go badly, issues become distorted and parties such as Sinn Fein gain power. Which, might I add is never a good thing. A lot of people voted yes because sinn fein said to vote no.
There is ignorance on both the yes and no sides of the argument.
To be honest I didn't vote in the Referendum as I had a leaving cert exam on the day. It really annoyed me that the voting day and the lc clashed as many lc students can vote now due to transition year.
I really don't know how I'd vote in a second referendum. The yes vote seems to be a vote against democracy and the no side is aligned to Sinn Fein. Maybe I'd be better not to vote at all.

You're right that internal unrest does work against the likes of the Treaty. That was one of the contributors to the French No vote in their referendum re the Constitution. And I agree ignorance was abound on all sides for the referendum. However there is nothing anti-democratic about Lisbon, or being asked to vote again. Voting again gives you just as much freedom to vote either way as the first referendum. The only way the EU and/or our Government can ever be accused of being anti-democratic would be if they went ahead and implemented the Treaty despite the No vote.

Drakmord

To be honest, I think the Lisbon treaty was rejected due to people becoming more and more dissatisfied with our internal affairs.
I'm just beginning college and the thought of fees coming back really scares me. I have a lot of friends who would vote no in the Lisbon treaty 2 if the fees were brought back.
It's easy to pass an EU treaty if the country is going well and the citizens are content, but if things are starting to go badly, issues become distorted and parties such as Sinn Fein gain power. Which, might I add is never a good thing. A lot of people voted yes because sinn fein said to vote no.
There is ignorance on both the yes and no sides of the argument.
To be honest I didn't vote in the Referendum as I had a leaving cert exam on the day. It really annoyed me that the voting day and the lc clashed as many lc students can vote now due to transition year.
I really don't know how I'd vote in a second referendum. The yes vote seems to be a vote against democracy and the no side is aligned to Sinn Fein. Maybe I'd be better not to vote at all.

HalloweenJack

molloyjh wrote: »

There has been some evidence thus far that ignorance and a convincing No campaign played significant part in the result. While I'm all for democracy I would rather the people voted on the Treaty itself and not out of ignorance and/or on how convincing the campaigns were.

While I'll agree with those points, I am certain that a second referendum for an unchanged Lisbon would be voted down again. It'll give the No side too much ammo and they wouldn't have to work too hard to drum up support.

molloyjh

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So human rights, basic working time directives, minimum wage etc only serves the elite does it. ok....:rolleyes:

I suppose these things, as well as the billions of investment, only serves the elite, but THEY want us to believe they benefit joe Soap.

I presume your sarcastic post was in addition to, and not in response to, my sarcastic post?

Fratton Fred

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes because the average Joe Bloggs has gotten nothing from the billions of Euro Ireland has received from the EU. And nothing from all the foreign investment that arrived as a result of membership. And nothing from the free movement of people within the EU. And nothing from the additional labour that the Eastern European countries provided us with in the construction industry. :rolleyes:

So human rights, basic working time directives, minimum wage etc only serves the elite does it. ok....:rolleyes:

I suppose these things, as well as the billions of investment, only serves the elite, but THEY want us to believe they benefit joe Soap.

molloyjh

HalloweenJack wrote: »

If we're asked to vote again on Lisbon, I'll spoil my vote.

I voted Yes first time round. Whether I like it or not, the No side won and the EU should accept it.

If they force it again, unchanged, then it shows democracy isn't accepted in the EU.

Also, I just caouldn't bring myself to vote No.

There has been some evidence thus far that ignorance and a convincing No campaign played significant part in the result. While I'm all for democracy I would rather the people voted on the Treaty itself and not out of ignorance and/or on how convincing the campaigns were. If these factors did play a significant part can we be sure the people will regardng the Treaty itself was actually done? To me there is no way of guaranteeing it in this case.

HalloweenJack

If we're asked to vote again on Lisbon, I'll spoil my vote.

I voted Yes first time round. Whether I like it or not, the No side won and the EU should accept it.

If they force it again, unchanged, then it shows democracy isn't accepted in the EU.

Also, I just caouldn't bring myself to vote No.

molloyjh

landan wrote: »

Leave the EU, if only they would allow this. You see such a move would rapidly as the ordinary people of every other european country demanded such actions. The EU serves the elite, and only the elite.

Yes because the average Joe Bloggs has gotten nothing from the billions of Euro Ireland has received from the EU. And nothing from all the foreign investment that arrived as a result of membership. And nothing from the free movement of people within the EU. And nothing from the additional labour that the Eastern European countries provided us with in the construction industry. :rolleyes:

landan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The next vote should be Yes, accept Lisbon or No, leave the EU.

Force people into thinking about what they are voting for rather than taking the easy option of voting No and changing nothing.

Leave the EU, if only they would allow this. You see such a move would rapidly as the ordinary people of every other european country demanded such actions. The EU serves the elite, and only the elite.

landan

Hagar wrote: »

Taoiseach not ruling out second Referendum

Vote Yes if you agree with the proposal.
Vote Yes if you don't agree with the proposal.

1984 came and nobody noticed.

Nobody noticed alright, sure they still think they have a say in what happens.

I have been hoping for a second referendum, although I am against anything EU.

In my opinion, even the most docile, compliant idiot will have to accept the fact that they are living in a dictatorship, no matter what Brian Dobson may tell you.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

With all due respect Fred your Govt didn't give the people of Britain the opportunity to vote.
Who can say what their vote would have been?

If the tenacity with which Britain has clung to its currency is anything to go by a "Yes" vote would have been by no means certain.

That's right, they didn't but I don't think it would have been any different to Ireland.

The scare mongering by the "No" lobby was enough to get a no vote rather than people voting no because they had weighed up the pros and cons. My mother in law voted no because she is anti abortion ffs.

People's choices were

1 read this large boring document, make an informed decision all on your own and vote according to your own beliefs and wishes.

2 listen to a government that, franlkly. no one trusts and vote yes.

3 Listen to the scare mongers ("People died for your freedom, reject the treaty" etc etc) and vote No

4 do nothing, vote No and it will all go away.

it is no wonder it got rejected. It was the easiest decision

now, if you add in that rejecting the treaty will mean leaving the EU, then you may get people who actually read and understand what the treaty is all about as a no vote would have as much impact on people's lives as a yes vote.

Personally, I believe that politicians are there to make these decisions for us, that is what they are paid for. Giving them a chance to blame the people if it goes wrong gives them a huge get out of jail card.

irish_bob

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The next vote should be Yes, accept Lisbon or No, leave the EU.

Force people into thinking about what they are voting for rather than taking the easy option of voting No and changing nothing.

agreed , when the decision is in black and white terms , peoples minds focus quicker , besides , people need to understand that we need the eu and they hardly need us at all

molloyjh

dresden8 wrote: »

Oh dear molloy. We're being set up and softened up. How can you not see that?

He's not going to come out and say "You fecked up, vote again you tossers".

First the tame press come out and tell us how stupid we are and call for Cowen to do the brave thing and over-ride the result. Then the analysis as to why we're so stupid to have voted no. Pr1ck Roche then comes out and speaks in a personal basis. Which as a Minister in the government responsible for the issue, he cannot reasonably do.

Spurred on by his Ministers brave stand Cowen does indeed not rule out a second referendum.

Then there'll be som "Emperors new clothes" kind of deal where they will bang on for a few months about how "No" voters really were duped, gullible and idiotic. But God love them, we'll give them another chance to prove they're not stupid.

Then they'll bus every granny in the country to a polling station.

It you think that's not going to happen we'll just have to re-visit that scenario in a few months time.

I'm not so sure after what I saw this week. All the opposition parties are coming out against another referendum despite the fact that they were strongly in favour of Lisbon. This isn't because they value "democracy" or "the peoples will" or anything like that, its because there is political advantage in doing so. Similarly there is political disadvantage in pushing a referendum unless you've got bloody good reason.

For as much as FF may have wanted Lisbon, the politicians in this country are exremely short-sighted and one thing overrides all others - reelection. I can't see FF putting their reelection prospects in serious risk over Lisbon.

Now while I agree that a re-run is probable at this stage, I think there is still good reason to assume that FF haven't made that decision yet because they are afraid it will backfire on them. I'd say they are hoping that the results of this investigation will provide them with a strong case for a re-run, but if it doesn't I doubt they are going to risk their positions over it.

That being said I have made my position clear on this elsewhere, i.e. that I believe that a re-run is probably a good thing assuming that ignorance did in fact play a significant factor in June and the right steps towards rectifying that are taken before any such re-run is held, and additionally that another investigation into that result is run (regardless of the result) to ensure that ignorance didn't play a significant factor again.

Hagar

With all due respect Fred your Govt didn't give the people of Britain the opportunity to vote.
Who can say what their vote would have been?

If the tenacity with which Britain has clung to its currency is anything to go by a "Yes" vote would have been by no means certain.

Fratton Fred

The next vote should be Yes, accept Lisbon or No, leave the EU.

Force people into thinking about what they are voting for rather than taking the easy option of voting No and changing nothing.

dresden8

molloyjh wrote: »

Oh FFS all Cowen said was that they were keeping their options open until they had a chance to analyse the results of the detailed investigation into the reason for the result. Noone is saying we are having another referendum and noone is saying we aren't. Stop making an issue over nothing.

Oh dear molloy. We're being set up and softened up. How can you not see that?

He's not going to come out and say "You fecked up, vote again you tossers".

First the tame press come out and tell us how stupid we are and call for Cowen to do the brave thing and over-ride the result. Then the analysis as to why we're so stupid to have voted no. Pr1ck Roche then comes out and speaks in a personal basis. Which as a Minister in the government responsible for the issue, he cannot reasonably do.

Spurred on by his Ministers brave stand Cowen does indeed not rule out a second referendum.

Then there'll be som "Emperors new clothes" kind of deal where they will bang on for a few months about how "No" voters really were duped, gullible and idiotic. But God love them, we'll give them another chance to prove they're not stupid.

Then they'll bus every granny in the country to a polling station.

It you think that's not going to happen we'll just have to re-visit that scenario in a few months time.