PDN wrote: » Carrying a rabbit's foot is based on the belief that an inanimate object will somehow bring you luck. The two are in no way equivalent unless you start from an atheistic assumption that all belief in the supernatural is junk.
Wicknight wrote: » The two things are equivalent if neither are true or if both are true.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » PDN, do you consider any prayer answered by God a miracle? Or is there a distinction between asking for something you need (money, for example) and the parting of a sea?
PDN wrote: » c) The Judeo-Christian view that God created the world, set natural laws in place, and intervenes at various times in human affairs. This intervention can take the form of speaking to people, working miracles that appear to suspend natural laws, or simply causing things to happen in natural ways that cause 'coincidences' to happen in response to prayer. Christians disagree among themselves as to how much God is controlling things (eg Calvinists and Arminians).
PDN wrote: » Therefore my position that the two are not equivalent is the only sensible position for a Christian to take.
PDN wrote: » I must say, Schuhart, I have normally found you to be a fair and thoughtful opponent in any debates we have had. I would almost think that it is you that is jetlagged today rather than me!
Wicknight wrote: » It doesn't depend on being a Christian for them to be equivalent. A person who isn't a Christian and believes in a rabbits foot is exactly the same as a Christian who believes God answers prayers. Both are putting faith in a supernatural superstition to bring them good fortune. They are equivalent.
This all smacks of the same attitude you displayed over your dismissal of the Islamic belief in Mohammad's views on Jesus, a few weeks ago. You really seem to have trouble viewing your own supernatural beliefs at the same level that you judge the supernatural beliefs of others.
PDN wrote: » No, they are only equivalent to you because you have a presupposition that they are both superstition.
PDN wrote: » It is perfectly reasonable to believe that some supernatural claims are more valid than others.
Wicknight wrote: » No, they are equivalent because they are both belief in a supernatural superstition.
Whether the superstition is real or not is actually irrelevant.
You believing that your god sometimes grants good fortune on people who pray to him is the same as someone keeping a rabbits foot around with the belief that it will grant them good fortune.
What seem to be basically saying is along the lines of someone saying that it is perfectly reasonable to say that chocolate is the best ice cream, but that is nothing like saying that honeycomb is the best ice cream. You can't compare the two beliefs. Which is a bit silly consider they are basically the same.
PDN wrote: » No, they are not both belief in a supernatural superstition. The word 'superstition' is a pejorative term that demonstrates how you are approaching this discussion with your mind already made up. You are, therefore, begging the question.
santing wrote: » I don't know your circumstances, and I don't want to sound cheap, but He is the God who really sees. If you read the end of Hebrews 11, if you read the Psalms, you can see that many have struggled with this before.
santing wrote: » The original question - from Satan - was that Job worshipped God because of his wealth. God had proven Satan wrong. That God gave job twice as much was solely based on grace. And yes, sometimes I am jealous as well - but I may not be able to handle wealth the way Job did!
Wicknight wrote: » I'm not sure what you mean by "with your mind already made up" ... mind made up about what?
Are you suggesting that belief in a god that "answers specific requests" (to use your phrase which means exactly the same as grants good fortune a phrase which you seem to take offence) is not supernatural superstition but belief in a rabbits foot is?
Schuhart wrote: » Can I suggest that part of the problem may be the use of that word 'supernatural'. Because I rather think its cloaking a distinction. There is 'supernatural' in the sense of believing a supernatural origin to this reality. But that does not necessarily require a belief that supernatural things, in the sense of ghosts and paranormal stuff. In terms of an example of this, I'd think of the priest who taught me science in school. He was one of those people who felt that science revealed the majesty of God's creation. He did not expect miraculous cures or the like. He would accept the outcome of any scientific investigation. But he could speak with great enthusiasm, and even used words like 'beauty', as he described what he saw as the wonder of how all this stuff works. Then there's supernatural in the sense of miracle cures, fortune telling and the like. I think its clear once we step into this area that we are in shark infested waters. I take it that PDN will accept that there are many charlatans out there. I know he'll argue his corner of this field is different, but I really cannot see why that is so. Even God giving someone a psychic dig to shift out of a parking spot thirty seconds early involves a divine manipulation of this reality. Its only superficially different to a grander miracle - I refuse to believe that present company don't see the issue at stake here. Once you've popped that cherry, you've popped it. If you claim you've a direct line to God that allows you to pop people out of their parking spaces to let you in, you simply have entered the same twilight zone occupied by the like of Tony Quinn Yoga's claims of distance healing by everyone thinking you cured. Apologies as I'm basically repeating what I've already said. But just take it as an indication of incredulity at the line you are defending.I would not use the word 'more valid', although clearly you will. But just to indicate that I don't think this is a clear atheist/theist divide either, I actually do agree that some religious claims (I want to avoid the term 'supernatural' as I think it has become loaded) are more reasonable than others. Specifically, I do think that Islam has a more incredible basis than Christianity. That said, the fact that whole societies can be based around Islam and many perfectly decent folk with expertise in different fields can hold that faith to be true should be an indication to us that large amounts of people can be attached to belief systems that seem to have questionable foundations. But that's another thread.
Pro 3:6 GNB Remember the LORD in everything you do, and he will show you the right way.
JimiTime wrote: » ^^Don't know if your above point will make an atheist see any different, but I must say it sounds good to me. What i find about prayer, is that I shouldn't ask for those trivial things (parking spaces etc). However, I think your point above is a very good one. Got me thinking anyway. My brother and I had a similar conversation a while back. I was jokingly saying how myself and my wife would love a house in Dalkey. He said, well why not pray for it? I was saying 'It feels like a misuse of prayer'. I suppose I'm still a little uncomfortable with it, but I'll meditate on the point you raised.
JimiTime wrote: » Here's the thing. When Jesus said about faith, i.e. you can tell a mountain to move etc, was he only talking to the apostles? I.E. Does that only apply to those who are specially selected as apostles?
Fanny Cradock wrote: » That pretty much sums up my position. I never feel i should trivialise partition prayer by praying for trivial things. However, this can lead to no prayer at all.
JimiTime wrote: » Thats the thing. I suppose the question I'm asking now is, Why wouldn't I invite Gods input into any aspect of my life? Why would I think I'm abusing prayer, if I need a parking space for example. Do I think God would be saying, 'r u for real, I aint got time'. I think Travel Junkie's post gave a great analogy about this. Certainly food for thought.
TravelJunkie wrote: » It applies to us too. Unfortunately sometimes because although it's a great scripture, it also puts a responsibility on us to believe that we shall receive something when we ask for it
JimiTime wrote: » If thats the case, I can tell the cancerous tumour to flee its victim and it will. Unless of course, I really don't have even the slightest bit of faith. Which I find hard to believe. There is no Caveat in what Jesus says, i.e. No bit that says, you can tell the mountain to move, and God will then decide if he wants to move it. Which is why I tend to think of it as being directed at the chosen apostles.
TravelJunkie wrote: » Something else I just thought of; I think that sometimes prayer isn't enough for some things. Lets call it cancer or something equally terrible. It might require group intercession or spiritual warfare (this is very intense stuff - seen it once) What are your thoughts on this PDN?
Jas 5:16-18 ESV Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. (17) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. (18) Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
Jas 4:3-8 ESV You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. (4) You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (5) Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"? (6) But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
1Ki 18:1 ESV After many days the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, "Go, show yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain upon the earth."
