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IRA/UVF killings

ballybay_eh

Apologies if this topic is a bit sensitive. I'll remove if others feel it is.

I remember my father told me a story when I was young about some of the killings that took place during the Troubles. One story in particular came back to me recently but I can only remember the vaguest details about it.

Apparently a Gaelic football team were on their way back from a football match and there bus was stopped by either the IRA or the UVF (can't remember). They were made to get out of the bus and line up. They were then asked one by one what religion they were. All the players except for one were Catholic/Protestant (again, can't remember). All the players were shot except for the one player of the different religion.

Hopefully that will refresh someone's memory and they can fill in the gaps. It may be a sort of urban legend of the hatred and brutality of the times but I would like to know the full details. When? Where? And which "side" actually did the killing.

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Phlann

I was reading about it earlier and apparently the intelligence reports from informants indicated that it may well have been sanctioned by one or two members of the council without the knowledge of the others (if we're talking about the Kingsmill incident).

But it's always murky waters with the IRA... what they knew or didn't know, what they sanctioned or didn't sanction, the only people who know for sure are the ones who were there and for the most part they're not talking.

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. It's highly likely a member or members of the IRA carried it out, but it wasn't an official operation.

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's so, do you know offhand if they were punished, or expunged from the IRA as a result?

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

I was reading about it earlier and apparently the intelligence reports from informants indicated that it may well have been sanctioned by one or two members of the council without the knowledge of the others (if we're talking about the Kingsmill incident).

Hardly a credible source. Informers have said lots of things.

But it's always murky waters with the IRA... what they knew or didn't know, what they sanctioned or didn't sanction, the only people who know for sure are the ones who were there and for the most part they're not talking.

Theres always that in any war or any army.

stovelid wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's so, do you know offhand if they were punished, or expunged from the IRA as a result?

I don't know at all, and never will I'm sure. I don't know for certain if it was IRA members, but I reckon it was, with the weapons that were used and that.

Phlann

I see.

I should have noticed your username before replying.

PrivateEye

In 1983, men claiming to represent the Catholic Reaction Force used machine guns to attack a Pentecostal Church in Keady, Armagh. Three members of the congregation were killed.

Apparently the Catholic Reaction Force were actually brave 'socialist republicans' from the INLA :rolleyes: Suppose that was in Connollys vision

--

Through the history of the North a far greater number of sectarian attacks were carried out by loyalist deathsquads (The lads who were shot watching an Irish football match, the famous 'butchers, attacking people in cemetaries etc.) but I'm a firm believer that you can't weigh up the bodies and decide who came off as being 'less sectarian'. It happened as a result of guns that wanted a united Ireland as well as guns that wanted to 'protect the empire' and too many people lost their lives at the hands of it. I really don't think things can really move on properly in the North until justice is delievered in a fair few cases (Bloody Sunday in particular, if Bloody Sunday remains the way it is nationalists will never have any faith in the British government)

flanum

Op, sounds like the Kingsmill your talkin about.

a lot of bad things happened, a lot of hurt happened a lot of time.

try and get the chance to read up on the lenny murphy mob "shankhill butchers"!

now that was mad bad horrible stuff!

it happened!! only up the road from wherever ye live! (its only a wee country)!

(from wiki...).. :

The "Shankill Butchers" were a group of Ulster Volunteer Force members in Belfast, Northern Ireland, who abducted Roman Catholics usually walking home from a night out, tortured and/or savagely beat and killed them, usually by cutting their throats. Most of their victims had no connection to the Provisional Irish Republican Army or any other paramilitary group.

The leader of the Shankill Butchers was Lenny Murphy. At school he was a bully and a thief, and as soon as he left at the age of 16, he became a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force.[citation needed]

By 1972, age 20, Murphy gathered together a gang of equally violent young men, the core being Murphy himself, Robert "Basher" Bates, and "Big" Sam McAllister, who used his huge frame to intimidate the Butchers' victims. In what is said to have been retaliation for the Bloody Friday bombings by the Provisional IRA, a Catholic man, Francis Arthurs, was abducted, beaten, and stabbed for over an hour before being killed.

The murder of Tom Madden is seen as one of the most terrible examples of the Butchers' brutality. Madden was abducted and then stripped naked. He was hung upside down from the beam of a lock-up garage, and slowly skinned alive. He eventually died of slow strangulation.

On September 28, 1972, Murphy shot and killed William Pavis, who was suspected of selling arms to the IRA. Murphy and his accomplice, Mervyn Connor, were arrested shortly afterwards and held in prison awaiting trial. However, Murphy killed Connor in prison, just after forcing him to write a confession to Pavis' murder. The charges against Lenny Murphy relating to the murder of Pavis collapsed, although Murphy was held behind bars for a number of escape attempts.

In May 1975, Murphy was released from prison. He married and fathered a daughter, but like the rest of his gang he cared little for domesticity and would spend most of his time hanging around pubs on the Shankill Road, drinking heavily and plotting crimes. That October they raided a shop, and on finding out the four employees there were Catholics, Murphy shot three of them dead and ordered an accomplice to kill the fourth.

Another key figure of the Shankill Butchers was William Moore. He had worked as a butcher and had stolen several large knives and meat-cleavers from his old workplace, tools that would be put to a horrific use. Over the coming months, the gang began kidnapping Catholics late at night and viciously killing them.

Francis Crossan, aged 34 and father of two, was walking home from a night out, when he was spotted by one of the gang. This was around 12-12:30am. He was hit from behind with a wheel brace, and dragged into a taxi, which drove into the Shankill area. Francis was then tortured and badly beaten. He was repeatedly hit by Murphy, both punched and with the wheel brace. Murphy repeatedly said things like, "I'm going to kill you, you bastard!" Francis was then dragged into an alley, and his throat cut almost through the spine by Murphy. Pieces of glass found in Francis' head showed that a beer glass had been shoved into his head, either in the black taxi, or in the alley. The other victims were killed in a similarly horrific manner.

The Shankill Butchers also got into a loyalist feud with another gang, which quickly ended when Murphy brutally killed a member of the rival gang. There is much evidence to suggest Murphy and his fellow murderers were more like serial killers than terrorists, and that the political situation in Ulster allowed them a respect within their community they never would have had otherwise. They occasionally used guns, but preferred knives and cleavers, and rather than carry out crimes that were carefully planned, the gang usually went out hunting on a whim, usually at night after spending all evening drinking heavily. On one occasion Murphy and Bates impulsively shot and killed two Protestants, believing incorrectly that they were Catholics.

In March 1976, Murphy shot and injured a Catholic woman. He was arrested and subsequently pleaded guilty to a firearms charge. He ordered the murders to continue, and over the next year, with William Moore acting as the new leader, several more Catholics were abducted, tortured and hacked to death.The "Shankill Butchers" were a group of Ulster Volunteer Force members in Belfast, Northern Ireland, who abducted Roman Catholics usually walking home from a night out, tortured and/or savagely beat and killed them, usually by cutting their throats. Most of their victims had no connection to the Provisional Irish Republican Army or any other paramilitary group.

The leader of the Shankill Butchers was Lenny Murphy. At school he was a bully and a thief, and as soon as he left at the age of 16, he became a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force.[citation needed]

By 1972, age 20, Murphy gathered together a gang of equally violent young men, the core being Murphy himself, Robert "Basher" Bates, and "Big" Sam McAllister, who used his huge frame to intimidate the Butchers' victims. In what is said to have been retaliation for the Bloody Friday bombings by the Provisional IRA, a Catholic man, Francis Arthurs, was abducted, beaten, and stabbed for over an hour before being killed.

The murder of Tom Madden is seen as one of the most terrible examples of the Butchers' brutality. Madden was abducted and then stripped naked. He was hung upside down from the beam of a lock-up garage, and slowly skinned alive. He eventually died of slow strangulation.

On September 28, 1972, Murphy shot and killed William Pavis, who was suspected[citation needed] of selling arms to the IRA. Murphy and his accomplice, Mervyn Connor, were arrested shortly afterwards and held in prison awaiting trial. However, Murphy killed Connor in prison, just after forcing him to write a confession to Pavis' murder. The charges against Lenny Murphy relating to the murder of Pavis collapsed, although Murphy was held behind bars for a number of escape attempts.

In May 1975, Murphy was released from prison. He married and fathered a daughter, but like the rest of his gang he cared little for domesticity and would spend most of his time hanging around pubs on the Shankill Road, drinking heavily and plotting crimes. That October they raided a shop, and on finding out the four employees there were Catholics, Murphy shot three of them dead and ordered an accomplice to kill the fourth.

Another key figure of the Shankill Butchers was William Moore. He had worked as a butcher and had stolen several large knives and meat-cleavers from his old workplace, tools that would be put to a horrific use. Over the coming months, the gang began kidnapping Catholics late at night and viciously killing them.

Francis Crossan, aged 34 and father of two, was walking home from a night out, when he was spotted by one of the gang. This was around 12-12:30am. He was hit from behind with a wheel brace, and dragged into a taxi, which drove into the Shankill area. Francis was then tortured and badly beaten. He was repeatedly hit by Murphy, both punched and with the wheel brace. Murphy repeatedly said things like, "I'm going to kill you, you bastard!" Francis was then dragged into an alley, and his throat cut almost through the spine by Murphy. Pieces of glass found in Francis' head showed that a beer glass had been shoved into his head, either in the black taxi, or in the alley. The other victims were killed in a similarly horrific manner.

The Shankill Butchers also got into a loyalist feud with another gang, which quickly ended when Murphy brutally killed a member of the rival gang. There is much evidence to suggest Murphy and his fellow murderers were more like serial killers than terrorists, and that the political situation in Ulster allowed them a respect within their community they never would have had otherwise. They occasionally used guns, but preferred knives and cleavers, and rather than carry out crimes that were carefully planned, the gang usually went out hunting on a whim, usually at night after spending all evening drinking heavily. On one occasion Murphy and Bates impulsively shot and killed two Protestants, believing incorrectly that they were Catholics.

In March 1976, Murphy shot and injured a Catholic woman. He was arrested and subsequently pleaded guilty to a firearms charge. He ordered the murders to continue, and over the next year, with William Moore acting as the new leader, several more Catholics were abducted, tortured and hacked to death.
In May 1977, a young man named Gerard McLaverty, was abducted by the Butchers and found alive, albeit badly wounded after he had been stabbed and hacked with an axe. He had been left for dead by the gang, but the freezing night air had slowed his bleeding and he was discovered and hospitalized. The police drove him around the haunts of the gang, whom they had long suspected, and he identified all of them. Moore, Bates and McAllister all confessed their guilt. They also said that Murphy had been their leader but they later retracted these claims.

The rest of the Shankill Butchers came to trial in February 1979. Eleven men were convicted of a total of 19 murders between them, and the 42 life sentences handed out were the most ever in a single trial in British criminal history. William Moore pleaded guilty to 11 counts of murder and Bates pleaded guilty to 10. They were sentenced to life with no chance of release, but were eventually released under the Good Friday Agreement of 1998). In his book The Shankill Butchers, Martin Dillon said that his own investigations suggest the gang were responsible for a total of 30 murders.

etc etc.....!

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

I see.

I should have noticed your username before replying.

Is that a problem?

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

I don't know at all, and never will I'm sure. I don't know for certain if it was IRA members, but I reckon it was, with the weapons that were used and that.

Sure, nobody knows if it was approved at council level, and I admit that a cell structure does give rise to these things....but given that the IRA reacted with such alacrity to issues such as informing or 'collaboration', allowing sectarian spectaculars in their name (and with their weapons - which I assumed must have come from a dump/quartermaster) to go unpunished is at best a tacit approval.

Even republicans must concede that the 'unapproved' option is always trotted out for operations with a toxic publicity effect, while the relatively 'popular' ones like your Warrenpoint or Brighton are readily admitted to.

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

Is that a problem?

If I had a user name like Billy Windsor McViolence, you must admit you'd look at any of my posts in this thread differently...

marco murphy

stovelid wrote: »

Sure, nobody knows if it was approved at council level, and I admit that a cell structure does give rise to these things....but given that the IRA reacted with such alacrity to issues such as informing or 'collaboration', allowing sectarian spectaculars in their name (and with their weapons - which I assumed must have come from a dump/quartermaster) to go unpunished is at best a tacit approval.

Even republicans must concede that the 'unapproved' option is always trotted out for operations with a toxic publicity effect, while the relatively 'popular' ones like your Warrenpoint or Brighton are readily admitted to.

I understand.

stovelid wrote: »

If I had a user name like Billy Windsor McViolence, you must admit you'd look at any of my posts in this thread differently...

Suppose I would.

Phlann

Nothing personal, man

It's just that, in my experience, as far as republicans are concerned every informant is 'unreliable' or 'discredited', every former Sinn Fein member who criticises the inner workings of the party is a 'malcontent with an agenda'... and so on.

There's just no valid criticism of the Republican movement as far as some people are concerned.

I'm not saying you're one of those people but I've heard that stuff so often it's made me a little cynical!

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

Nothing personal, man

It's just that, in my experience, as far as republicans are concerned every informant is 'unreliable' or 'discredited', every former Sinn Fein member who criticises the inner workings of the party is a 'malcontent with an agenda'... and so on.

Can you give me an example? I'm not afraid to criticise the Republican Movement, but I don't look to criticise for the craic either.

There's just no valid criticism of the Republican movement as far as some people are concerned.

I'm not saying you're one of those people but I've heard that stuff so often it's made me a little cynical!

I know. But you'll know there has been a lot of division and splits throughout the history. Republicans are generally not sheep.

Sherifu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrovKgrTw

Latchy

Apart from the usual suspects google and wikiepedia ,i am sure their is a website out there with the details of every atrocity commited during the troubles ,no doubt put together by good people with political and historical intrests in that period of irelands history .Op's particular incident will no doubt be in there .

Wertz

^

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron.htm