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Any cops out there?

ART6

Looking at a lot of threads in AH and Motors Forum, there seems to be some criticism of the Gardai. "Didn't respond." "Couldn't have cared less." etc etc.

I can recall years ago that if I went into Waterford City for anything there seemed to be Gardai patrolling all over the place. I didn't make any particular note of them. They were just there. Now, thinking back on it, I can't recall seeing any for a long time. Meanwhile we have (I'm told) a crime and drugs problem. So. Are they now all sitting in a barracks watching TV cameras?

In New York City, a place where I have spent some time on occasions, there seemed to be a cop with a night stick on every street corner, and all of them gave the impression that he would quite like to bend his night stick over someone's head.

So. Have we reached the point where we simply can't afford proper policing? Have we moved from the days where my wife could wander around Waterford in absolute safety to a point where even I cannot?

What's happened? Or am I misjudging the situation?

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MizzLolly

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Who are these "guards" you're talking about? Do you mean the Gardai or security "guards" in shops?

There's at least 16 spelling and/or grammatical errors in that post... kind makes a mockery of you calling someone else an "uneducated dickhead"... not that I'm calling you that name though just pointing out the irony.

Quick... stick in the 'of'... quick..quick!

Seriously though, everyone has oviously had different experiences with the Gardai. I've never had a particularily bad experience with them so I don't feel it would be fair for me to pass judgement either way. I have had two seperate experiences with two female guards, in both cases they were rude and unhelpful. That's all I can really say from a personal point of view.

I do see them pretty often walking around town though. Can't be easy. (assuming that they are actually doing what we expect them to be doing)

bobbysands81

dc69 wrote: »

I know a few people in the gaurds,so yeah I have an idea of how much they are paid.

As for your other comment,I dont believe you.Can I have some evidence.

Any guard I have ever met or any guard I know,are uneducated dickheads and every guard I know,joined the force because they either didnt want to go to college,failed or dropped out or couldnt do anything else.

There are some good guardai but not the young guards,they have different motives for joining than the guards of years ago.

Who are these "guards" you're talking about? Do you mean the Gardai or security "guards" in shops?

There's at least 16 spelling and/or grammatical errors in that post... kind makes a mockery of you calling someone else an "uneducated dickhead"... not that I'm calling you that name though just pointing out the irony.

GerM

Completely fair point, foinse. I could argue that the cost of living in rural areas is far less but point taken. Didn't factor that in originally. The garda who made the 40k comment was working in a busy Dublin station.

source

GerM wrote: »

Karlitosway,
I'm not complaining about my job. I love it. But it was more in response to people being adamant that gardai aren't particularly well paid. With respect to OT policy they are well looked after in comparison to private sector employees. I work bank holidays and go in at weekends. It's part and parcel of a lot of jobs in the private sector if you want to be successful and move upwards. I've a decent basic salary so I'm ok with this. If people get well compensated for this in the public sector they should be aware that they've no right to complain. As far as I'm concerned it makes the poor pay argument that people have been employing redundant. They make a decent living from the job.

TBH i don't think any gardai on here have complained about what they're earning, from what i've read the pay scales were posted in order to show that our basic is not as high as most people think, Oh and yes there's plenty of OT in the cities, try working in a country station......not a whole load of OT to be had, so you wind up living off what the pay scales show, plus shift allowance, Which certainly wouldn't have you on €40,000 in 2 years.

GerM

Karlitosway,
Turning a blind eye to a crime and dealing with something else because you're intimidated would suggest you're in the wong line of work. To suggest a crime is a crime is unrealistic. Is drinking in public equal to dealing drugs? Is littering the same as assault?

I'm not complaining about my job. I love it. But it was more in response to people being adamant that gardai aren't particularly well paid. With respect to OT policy they are well looked after in comparison to private sector employees. I work bank holidays and go in at weekends. It's part and parcel of a lot of jobs in the private sector if you want to be successful and move upwards. I've a decent basic salary so I'm ok with this. If people get well compensated for this in the public sector they should be aware that they've no right to complain. As far as I'm concerned it makes the poor pay argument that people have been employing redundant. They make a decent living from the job.

The lad I know who didn't want to leave his rural area is being looked after. He's an intercounty footballer and strings were pulled left, right and centre for him. I don't want to give away too much info but his local station is just over 30miles from his home so obviously the 50mile rule can be bent for the right candidate.

I've no desire to be a garda. I said above I don't think it's an easy job. I wouldn't enjoy approaching scum and dealing with them so I didn't sign up for it. Those that did need to realise that's what their job entails. I'd like to reiterate that the main point of my post was to highlight that the recruitment process needs to come under scrutiny. If they can't do the above then the recruiters chose the wrong candidate. We're willing to put an inferior candidate policing our streets and sacrifice our level of safety because he's a handy footballer. Says a lot.

tallaght01

Karlitosway, I'm not sure that most people think that it's easy to do the job of a garda well.

I think the problems is

A) a LOT of people have negative experiences with the gardai. This seems to be most common in Ireland. I lived in the UK for about 8 years. In Scotland, I had a dickhead copper threatening to arrest me one night in A+E because I wouldn't tell her what was wrong with a prisoner they'd brought in. I told her it was confidential. She said if I didn't tell her she'd arrest me. I told her to go ahead an arrest me. BUT, because I had so many good experiences with the police in the UK, I could see that it was one dickhead in a force that was mostly made up of good guys. When I worked in new Zealand I had a few interactions with the police, and they were so friendly. I've no idea if they were any good at their job, but they acted in such a way that I trusted them.

A lot of people seem to know people who've been recruited into the gardai who probably shouldn't have been. I only know 2 guys who've been recruited. One is one of my best friends, but he's an out and out racist. We stopped arguing about it years ago, because that's the way he is. He also has an outrageous temper on him. He's now a garda. The other guy is proper dodgy. Total bad news in so many ways. But he's never been caught doing anything, so in fairness a criminal check won't have picked up anything.

Eru

GerM,
Some of what you say is fair enough but crime is crime is crime. Theres also the arguement that a junkie will buy his gear here there or anywhere and still take it. A strung out junkie is a hell of a lot less likely to mug someone than a junkie desperate for a fix.

As for OT, lots of jobs pay that so come on, thats not a realistic arguement. We all choose our careers and money is not always the number 1 reason. If your unhappy and not being paid OT then leave your job and get one that does pay it instead of complaining about those that do get it.

You also need to factor in the hours, your 8 or 9 in the evening is nothing compared to forced overtime, cancelled holidays, no bank holidays, weekends, nights and only 8 hours between shifts. You dont get dragged in on your day off because of a parade, protest, prisoner or court, etc.

Education, I dont know the percentage and I doubt its public information but from experience its about 50 / 50. Out of those that didnt have third level most had an alternative such as genuine life / work experience.

The guy you know that joined the Gardai because he didnt want to leave a rural area, well sorry but Gardai cant work within 50 miles of their own home town in rural areas. People from Tipp, Galway, Donegal arent being sent to Cork, Limerick and Dublin by choice. Come to think of it, thats also something about the Gardai thats not exactly a plus for the career is it? No say in where your working.

Then you need to consider the injuries and risks. Not just needles, knives, assaults and other similar scenarios but the fact that 30 years of working outside on shift work shaves a serious amount of time of your life expectancy. Last study I saw showed that the average Garda dies 5 years after retirement which is only in your 60s.

And before people start on it, Gardai pay into the Garda pension fund, its a private pension just like Eagle star or whoever. The state doesnt give a penny towards it. Same for health insurance.

Basically people can complaint about certain aspects of other jobs. How much they earn, work they do or conditions but when all is said and done, theres nothing stopping everyone here from applying to be a Garda, fireman, binman, soldier, civil servant or whatever. If your job is so bad and mine so great, why dont you?

GerM

I know 4 people who applied to become Gardai. 2 are now full members of the Garda Siochana, 1 was accepted and didn't go through with it and 1, despite 3 attempts, didn't get in. On the basis of these 4 people I've come to the conclusion that the selection process is seriously flawed. The one lad who would've made a decent Garda was rejected 3 times. The one who was accepted and backed out decided the hours weren't sociable enough and he didn't want to cut his hair. The two lads who made it are wasters more interested in flashing their badge to skip the queue at Copper Face Jacks than policing their areas.

These 2 boys would be the stereotypical new breed of Garda; lazy and not up to the job. To compensate for this they pick on the easy targets. If they see a couple of dodgy looking scangers passing a package between them on a street corner and a few half respectable looking lads having a can on their way out for the night, by their own admission, they'll approach the lads having cans as it's an easier way of being seen to be doing something. They're the sort that get so many people's backs up about the Gardai. The Gardai turn away thousands of people every year. Surely some of those they'e turning away would be better suited. The recruitment process needs to be examined in detail.

I'm not saying it's an easy job. I wouldn't enjoy approaching junkies on a street corner but they've signed up for it. Again, I'll stress that I place the overall blame on the recruitment process. A friends father, who is in his early fifties, recently took early retirement after becoming so disillusioned with the entire thing.

Up until a couple of years ago, when I heard someone complaining about the Gardai, I thought they were just whingers. But a bit more exposure to them (particularly through knowing some) has made me change my tune. A lot of people who go for it do simply go for the solid job and steady income. Sure, they won't become millionaires but the lads I know that have joined weren't going to be rich anyway. They've guaranteed themselves a job for life with a some handy perks and a similar pay structure to what they would've been earning. Someone posted a table of Garda pay structures earlier. This doesn't take into account OT which can bump up the salary heavily. Those earnings are based on your typical 40 hour week. I work in an office on a salary. If I'm busy I stay until 8 or 9 but I certainly don't receive OT for each hour I'm there after 5pm. When one of my mates went in for a chat at the local station after being accepted the Garda he was dealing with was talking up the job and told him within 2 years, with a bit of OT, he'll be on 40k. They'll never be rich but there's a reason 10,000 people apply for the Gardai each year. If people think that it's because they want to serve their community then they're very, very, naive.

Also, as a matter of interest I'd like to see the demographics with regards to third level educated gardai. I'd say a fair few of them are from more rural backgrounds where there aren't as many jobs to be had. Out of the 4 applicants I know the only one who has a third level education from Sligo IT and the chances of securing a good job locally weren't brilliant unless he left home so he became a garda. For the record, the only reason he got in was through connections in his local GAA club also who didn't want him to leave the parish. Backwards Ireland strikes again.

Eru

So basically you have a job thats very easy and involves little more than sitting acround scratching, requires little education and pays a big wad of cash?

Sounds to me like the intelligent people have joined the Gardai instead of wasting time bitching about them!

Tragedy

Reams of paperwork takes away from accountability, thats the whole point.
As long as the paperworks correct, no-ones accountable.

Sherifu

tallaght01 wrote: »

My 2cents is that it's very difficult to generalise about a profession. I fact, it's practically impossible.

Agreed.

tallaght01 wrote: »

They stopped me one day, just a routine search for drugs. This is pretty common in tallaght. I don't mind it, to be honest. I think that kind of thing can be pretty proactive.

But they were so rude to me. Two of them stopped me with big sour heads on them and just said "so, where are you hiding your drugs?".

Then when they searched me without saying a word to me, they found nothing and just said "go on your way then" pretty aggressively, as if I was lucky to be let go!. I replied "That's quite alright, no need to apologise" and yer man went ape.

That's very unprofessional alright.

Any time i've dealt with them they've be fine really. It's a pity the bad ones give a bad rep to all of them in some peoples minds.

Frank the Manc

Tragedy wrote: »

Same thing thats killing the health service.

Paper work.

Try report a crime, try report a guard acting like a power crazed loon -> get ****ed by paperwork.
And at the same time, guards are locked into stations or on secondment doing nothing but paperwork all day.

hold on now, wernt the gardai the very ones who opposed the implementation of civilians in garda stations, in order to ease their workload.

the very same people who vehemently opposed the establishment of the garda ombudsman in the first place.

im in no way having a go at the filth but quite a lot of them have an attitude which leaves a lot to be desired.
the main reason for this seems to be a complete lack of accountability, you can see this everytime you dare question their authority, they really arent used to it at all.
thats just how they've brought up in their training.

Tragedy

Same thing thats killing the health service.

Paper work.

Try report a crime, try report a guard acting like a power crazed loon -> get ****ed by paperwork.
And at the same time, guards are locked into stations or on secondment doing nothing but paperwork all day.

tallaght01

My 2cents is that it's very difficult to generalise about a profession. I fact, it's practically impossible.

The problems is, though, that so so many people have negative experiences with the gardai.

Most of my peers and several members of my family have been treated pretty shabbily by the gardai, for no good reason. Rudeness seems to be a huge problem with them.

They stopped me one day, just a routine search for drugs. This is pretty common in tallaght. I don't mind it, to be honest. I think that kind of thing can be pretty proactive.

But they were so rude to me. Two of them stopped me with big sour heads on them and just said "so, where are you hiding your drugs?".

Then when they searched me without saying a word to me, they found nothing and just said "go on your way then" pretty aggressively, as if I was lucky to be let go!. I replied "That's quite alright, no need to apologise" and yer man went ape.

Again, it's a single incident, and it involved 2 members of the force. But I know a hell of a lot of people who have had similiar problems. So, when I tell me mates about it...instead of going "ah they're not all like that...this 1 garda helped me with problem X", they are more likely to say "I had exactly the same problem".

So, I do wonder about the gardai. I have very little trust in them. But I'm generalising. But for some reason I've foud it pretty easy to justify that in my head, rightly or wrongly.

I think, whether or not they're a good police force, they're losing the PR battle with the public.

ojewriej

dc69 wrote: »

It shows how our country is run,when the government pay guards,2 years in the job 50 grand a year.

No wonder people resent the guards.Walking around earning stupid money,when others have to work their arses off.

You asked me to back up my claims with evidence, which i did. I even showed you salary scales, to prove that it's a myth that guards earn loads of money, but you chose to ignore it.

It's ok though, i think it's clear to anyone reading this that you don't have a clue. What you have is a big chip on you shoulder, probably caused by some "injustice" that happened to you from the hands of the guards. Or maybe you tried to join, but just didn't make the cut?

Either way, enjoy you garda bashing, I'm not going to waste more time on your trolling.

Faheywitane

chalad07 wrote: »

i dont think that the analogy of the army applies, presumably these type of commands arise from the need to condition soldiers to unquestioningly follow orders in a combat situation,

I just dont see why the guards would need this type of Training. There seems to be some sort of tactic in place to brainwash new recruits into the garda way of thinking. It allows little room for innovation, or new ideas, something that is badly need in the police force,

Granted, i have generalised, but it seems that your daughter is an exception, theres not many cops with masters degrees, or any non related degrees. Its people like your daughter that the guards need to concentrate on recruiting

Somewhere in the region of 50% of my intake have a third level education.
Where's the basis for your comments??

source

dc69 wrote: »

The guards have a choice when they are cruising around as to whether they stop in areas and get out and take drink off kids or do something more proactive.

Do you really think that taking alcohol off underage drinkers isn't proactive policing????

What's happening when gardai take drink off underage drinkers?

they are preventing antisocial behaviour from happening due to there being drunk teenagers on the streets messing and fooling around,ie, by stopping them while they're committing a small offence they're preventing the kids from committing a more serious offence (such as assault) later in the night,if that's not proactive policing then i don't know what is.

Gardai don't get a kick off taking drink off kids, and it is pretty much a nightmare of a thing to do when one of them gets gobby.

You really keep showing time and time again in this thread that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

timmywex

dc69 wrote: »

.

Minimal risk of injury,

That is one of the most stupid comments i have ever heard, please just walk around with the gards any night of the week and see how you end up! Gardai get assualted every weekend, not seriously in most cases, but it happens, and they are often in a+e, your comment is crazy!

And btw, imo, the gardai are better qualified than nurses, sure, nurses do a degree, but the gardai do a degree in templemore, and the amount of courses they do in various things from drving to fingerprints after this is masive, add to that their expirience of street live, i think they are higher qualified! And thats not taking away from nurses at all, just used them as an example!

Shadowless

Lilibet wrote: »

The first sentence of my comment above is true.The second one is pure conjecture as I don't have figures to support my assertion.Do you have figures to support yours??? or is it simply an opinion based on the jaded stereotype of the majority of Gardai being uneducated and thick?????

Actually it's a conclusion I've reached based on the evidence at my disposal. I never claimed it to be a fact. I'd be hugely surprised if over 50% of the guards had a university degree.

Lilibet

Dc69 you seem to have a serious dislike of the Gardai and you are entitled to your opinion.After all we live in a democracy in which Gardai have laid down their lives to ensure you don't have to live in a dictatorship ruled by the bomb and the bullet.

I am a health care professional who specialises in brain injury working in the public health service,spouse is a doctor and daughter is joining An Garda Siochana.
Some facts for you.I did not say the doctor was 'staring at the wall'.The nurses and doctors were gathered around the nurses station talking and laughing and talking about where they had gone last night.It was not a busy night.
However,my daughter had a head injury which the triage nurse assessed as 'only needing stitches' when anyone with any knowledge of head injury knows that a head injury can sometimes be hidden damage ,
causing a bleed into the brain.I'm sure she studied that in her training.However,applying it to real situations seemed to be beyond her.
When my daughter started to vomit and become sleepy,they (nurses and doctors)did not seem to realise the significance of same and it was then that I had no option but to threaten to sue as I realised what was happening.
Luckily,my threat worked and my daughter was monitored properly and given the appropriate treatment and has had no lasting effects.I make no apology for acting as I did.

She is the one who is now joining An Garda Siochana and who,but for my 'crap'as you call it would be brain damaged,thanks to our 'abused'workers.She went on to become a very lovely intelligent human being,no thanks to the so called health professionals in our A&E dept.And I can judge as I am one of the workers in the same health service!!!I also realise that I was lucky enough to be able to assess how serious my daughters situation was and demand action.
However,I would not dream of saying all nurses or doctors are incompetent as I am fair minded and educated enough to assess and admit that there are good and bad in every job and profession.But when uninformed and ignorant people tar all Gardai as useless,stupid.lazy,uneducated etc.etc.my blood boils!.

iloverocknroll

dc69 wrote: »

I know but the above post is implying that her daughter was dying in front of a doctors eyes(apperantly the doctor was staring at the wall or something) and he only interviened because she threatened to sue him.I have never heard such a load of crap in my life.

well i do agree it is a bit overreacted by the sounds of it but i have witnessed in a particular hospital patients being brushed aside when they where in dire need of some medical attention... and that woman is a mother... mothers always worry and think the worst when their children are involved so try not be so harsh on her lol

dc69

iloverocknroll wrote: »

its not actually mary harneys fault its the previous minister of healths fault he screwed everythin up and left mary to pick up the pieces.... i am myself not a very big fan of mary harney i think she could get the finger out but i dont think she is totally to blame.... now where nurses and doctors are concerned i dunno what your local hospital is like but mine you may as well be invisible especially at my age anyway... i when in and out of hospital before xmas and the way i was treated was disgraceful... no human being should of been treated the way i was....

I know but the above post is implying that her daughter was dying in front of a doctors eyes(apperantly the doctor was staring at the wall or something) and he only interviened because she threatened to sue him.I have never heard such a load of crap in my life.

The guards have a choice when they are cruising around as to whether they stop in areas and get out and take drink off kids or do something more proactive.

Nurses and Doctors can do nothing about their hospital being severely understaffed.

I think the above post will find that Hospital workers are rushed off their feet at all times due to lack of staff,guards are doing nothing proactive at the best of times.

kmart6

dc69 wrote: »

You really dont have a clue,do you?

Why not sue Mary Harney,who is responsible for the waiting times.

I think your the one without a clue going by that statement!:rolleyes:

iloverocknroll

its not actually mary harneys fault its the previous minister of healths fault he screwed everythin up and left mary to pick up the pieces.... i am myself not a very big fan of mary harney i think she could get the finger out but i dont think she is totally to blame.... now where nurses and doctors are concerned i dunno what your local hospital is like but mine you may as well be invisible especially at my age anyway... i when in and out of hospital before xmas and the way i was treated was disgraceful... no human being should of been treated the way i was....

dc69

Lilibet wrote: »

I had to visit an emergency dept of our local hospital with a very ill child and had to wait hours while nurses and doctors stood around talking to each other,ignoring my child who was very ill.They saw her sitting there,she was critically ill and they ignored her,nurses and doctors everywhere.Only when I threatened to sue the ar..of them did they intervene to save her life.Is there a Nurse/Doctor Ombudsman,to whom I can complain.....No....Sh...ssh... lets not complain about the saintly nurses or doctors as we will probably need them in our lifetime and we don't want to get on the wrong side of them.One thing is for sure,most people will need them more than they'll need the Gardai,therefore its easy to knock the Gardai for failing to be there instantly when we need them.After all,aren't the Gardai sitting around the station just waiting to respond to my call alone.They have nothing else to do.:rolleyes:

At least if there was a Garda there in your situation,they would have intervened even if they had to wait for backup depending on the situation,before doing so.And some of them wouldn't even wait for backup thereby risking their lives .Maybe they were dealing with another situation in Henry/North Earl/Cathal brugha St and couldn't get there as quickly as you wanted them to.

You really dont have a clue,do you?

Why not sue Mary Harney,who is responsible for the waiting times.

Not the nurses and doctors,who are by far the most undervalued and abused workers in ireland.

A guarda is 100X less important or qualified than anyone in the medical proffesion,so dont even try to compare them.

Also if your child was critically ill,they would have been seen straight away.Do you honestly think a child is going to be let die in front of a Doctor?

Stop waffling,you are embarasing yourself.

Lilibet

FunkZ wrote: »

I had a ten minute confrontation on O Connell Street lasy night, almost got my head torn off by a seven foot fat dope, no Garda anywhere

I had to visit an emergency dept of our local hospital with a very ill child and had to wait hours while nurses and doctors stood around talking to each other,ignoring my child who was very ill.They saw her sitting there,she was critically ill and they ignored her,nurses and doctors everywhere.Only when I threatened to sue the ar..of them did they intervene to save her life.Is there a Nurse/Doctor Ombudsman,to whom I can complain.....No....Sh...ssh... lets not complain about the saintly nurses or doctors as we will probably need them in our lifetime and we don't want to get on the wrong side of them.One thing is for sure,most people will need them more than they'll need the Gardai,therefore its easy to knock the Gardai for failing to be there instantly when we need them.After all,aren't the Gardai sitting around the station just waiting to respond to my call alone.They have nothing else to do.:rolleyes:

At least if there was a Garda there in your situation,they would have intervened even if they had to wait for backup depending on the situation,before doing so.And some of them wouldn't even wait for backup thereby risking their lives .Maybe they were dealing with another situation in Henry/North Earl/Cathal brugha St and couldn't get there as quickly as you wanted them to.

iloverocknroll

ah some of the gardai are really cool dudes and because a lot of them are lazy ****es the guards get some stick and actually there quite a few nice guards out there so dont tar em all wit the same brush

dc69

Eglinton wrote: »

A guard with 17 years service only gets €48,695? Really? I was on that within two years. How do they feed their families? Or am I reading those pay scales incorrectly? I know you can make up more with overtime (€31 according to that) but it's not nice to have to depend on overtime.

If thats true that is disgracefull.The job isnt highly skilled and any yob without a record can do it, that is an obscene amount of money to be paying,I dont believe you were on that within 2 years but I know its well achievable within about 6.

It shows how our country is run,when the government pay guards,2 years in the job 50 grand a year.

No wonder people resent the guards.Walking around earning stupid money,when others have to work their arses off.

Lilibet wrote: »

Anyone I know joining the guards are either university graduates or Institute of technology graduates. I'm sure they get a few who have the minimum requirement but I'd say they are in the minority.

Why in Gods name would anyone with a good degree join the guards after going through college?.It would actually prove the point they are stupid that they bothered going to college for no reason!It makes no sense.

FunkZ

I had a ten minute confrontation on O Connell Street lasy night, almost got my head torn off by a seven foot fat dope, no Garda anywhere

Lilibet

Shadowless wrote: »

Meh, any of my mates who joined the guards either dropped out of college or didn't get in in the first place. I'm sure they get a few graduates but I'd say they're in the minority.

Anyone I know joining the guards are either university graduates or Institute of technology graduates. I'm sure they get a few who have the minimum requirement but I'd say they are in the minority.

The first sentence of my comment above is true.The second one is pure conjecture as I don't have figures to support my assertion.Do you have figures to support yours??? or is it simply an opinion based on the jaded stereotype of the majority of Gardai being uneducated and thick?????