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Any cops out there?

ART6

Looking at a lot of threads in AH and Motors Forum, there seems to be some criticism of the Gardai. "Didn't respond." "Couldn't have cared less." etc etc.

I can recall years ago that if I went into Waterford City for anything there seemed to be Gardai patrolling all over the place. I didn't make any particular note of them. They were just there. Now, thinking back on it, I can't recall seeing any for a long time. Meanwhile we have (I'm told) a crime and drugs problem. So. Are they now all sitting in a barracks watching TV cameras?

In New York City, a place where I have spent some time on occasions, there seemed to be a cop with a night stick on every street corner, and all of them gave the impression that he would quite like to bend his night stick over someone's head.

So. Have we reached the point where we simply can't afford proper policing? Have we moved from the days where my wife could wander around Waterford in absolute safety to a point where even I cannot?

What's happened? Or am I misjudging the situation?

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MizzLolly

In fairness to them, they're always walking up and down O' Connell and Henry Street. Maybe they don't really do anything but I've gotten to the stage where I don't really blame them. What can they do other than patrol the streets (which they have been doing lately)?

Sure how many times have the Gardai arrested somebody for drug possession or repeated anti-social offences only to have the guy walk free from court?

The whole system is weak to be honest, we can't expect much more from them.

Shadowless

Meh, any of my mates who joined the guards either dropped out of college or didn't get in in the first place. I'm sure they get a few graduates but I'd say they're in the minority.

Also maybe a guard can answer this one. Why are there always at least 2 guards waltzing up and down the crime cesspit that is Grafton St yet I've never once seen a guard on Parnell St/Summerhill?

lennox1

chalad07 wrote: »

No problem:),

That is def a good sign that the guards are trying to attract better candidates, hopefully that will make for a change in the way they do things,

Another thing that i dont understand is the level of coruptiom. I'm not talking about the high level Serpico stuff, but the everyday things. A friend of mine got a pulled for talking on a phone while diving. The fact that she knew a guard meant that nothing will come of this and she'll get off. Lucky for my friend, but i dont know if its good practice!

We've all heard countless stories like this one, and its not a good sign, and it also seems to be common place in the it's not a minority of cops doing this.

I do fell sorry for guards in that there is a certain stigma attached, but sometimes they dont seem to do themselves any favors.

Just because someone has a uni education doesn't make them a good Garda.I have family in the Gardai and they are
(1)20-30 years in the job.
(2)Good at the job as is evident from the esteem in which they are held and the commendations from both victims and defendants they have received.
(3)Not graduates of any university except that of life.
(4)Not corrupt in any way in that they will not let anyone away with any wrongdoing of any kind and that extends particularly to members of the force.
(5)Disillusioned with older recruits (28-35) as they think they know it all and don't take instruction or advice well.Younger(19-24) recruits seem to respect experienced members more and want to learn from them.
(6)Are fitter than many of the recruits who seem to think that fitness training is no longer applicable when you come out of Templemore and despite being on the wrong side of 40 can run after and catch gurriers when the younger member or recruit is still trying to catch his/her breath
(7)Never has accepted as much as a cup of water without paying and will never accept a cup of tea,even in a victims house where the people are being nice,in case it would be construed in the wrong way.

So,there are great Gardai out there,quietly doing the job they love and have a vocation for,but as is the way of the world,only the bad gets noticed.

Lilibet

ojewriej wrote: »

I

I believe we should see the change in the guards, shortly, when they will come out of training.

Elaborate please.

chalad07

ojewriej wrote: »

Ok, sorry I snapped at you , I thought you just wanted to have a cheap shot at the guards, but now i see you are actually making a point.

I see what you are saying, but look at it this way: When you become a garda, you get a lot of powers over ordinary citizens. Garda managment has to make sure that people who wield these powers have enough discipline not to abuse them. And all the stuff you go through when in templemore teaches you discipline. In a way, it also prepares you for all the inonvieneinces of the job - and there is plenty.

It is a good point. All I can say to that is that Garda Siochana recently got a new comissioner. One of the first thing he did was a review of the training process, I believe a full report and reccomendations should be published shortly. A lot of people hope that changes in training is just a begining of a longer process of making Garda Siochana more up to date with the society we live in.

And one more thing - 3 years ago the age limit was increased form 28 to 35, in order to attract more mature and more experienced candidates. Just talking to the people who post here on boards, there is plenty of applicants who are in their early thirties, a lot of them with various degrees. I believe we should see the change in the guards, shortly, when they will come out of training.

No problem:),

That is def a good sign that the guards are trying to attract better candidates, hopefully that will make for a change in the way they do things,

Another thing that i dont understand is the level of coruptiom. I'm not talking about the high level Serpico stuff, but the everyday things. A friend of mine got a pulled for talking on a phone while diving. The fact that she knew a guard meant that nothing will come of this and she'll get off. Lucky for my friend, but i dont know if its good practice!

We've all heard countless stories like this one, and its not a good sign, and it also seems to be common place in the it's not a minority of cops doing this.

I do fell sorry for guards in that there is a certain stigma attached, but sometimes they dont seem to do themselves any favors.

Lilibet

chalad07 wrote: »

i dont think that the analogy of the army applies, presumably these type of commands arise from the need to condition soldiers to unquestioningly follow orders in a combat situation,

Granted, i have generalised, but it seems that your daughter is an exception, theres not many cops with masters degrees, or any non related degrees. Its people like your daughter that the guards need to concentrate on recruiting

Gardai have to follow lawful orders without question too so the training has to reflect this.If you can't follow orders while in the college,or you feel you're above being told what to do,will you be above obeying lawful orders from an officer in command e.g in a public order situation where you agree with the aim of protestors(insert any cause here) who decide to block access to a public building and have to be forcibly moved?

Again you are mistaken in your belief that recruit Gardai are not graduates,Many in fact,are graduates in varying disciplines so my daughter is no exception.Only recently I spoke to a young Garda who joined eight years ago with a university degree and who told me that a lot in his class in Templemore were also graduates.Eight years ago!!! when the Celtic Tiger was in full swing,he joined for the love of the job when he could have earned a much better salary outside if the force.

However,being a graduate does not mean that she will be a good Garda,any more than having a 1.1 means you will be a good Doctor,Lawyer,Nurse etc.etc.I know health care professionals I wouldn't trust with my dogs life,much less my own.Someone who joins with the minimum requirement could be a much better professional at any job than a graduate.

sam34

dutchcat wrote: »

sam34 wrote: »

my father used to say that to get into the guards all you have to be is tall and thick!

He forgot their parents must be unmarried

i'm slow on the uptake tonight, i had to read that three times thinking "Wtf" before i got that

Terry

newmills wrote: »

Recently one sunday night about 11.30 p.m i heard a commotion outside our house. I looked out the bedroom window to see a guard trying to cut open the lock, on the gate of the club they were locked in to!! They obviously had been sleeping or dossing round the back of the hall and when they came to leave, the gates were locked and they couldn't get out. The other guard told the guy to move while he rammed the gate to bust it open. The best laugh is, that the chain and lock are only for show, and had he looked at it properly they would have been out in a flash!! I filmed it with my mobile phone and nearly burst laughing at the pair of eejits!! God loves a trier!!

Youtube it.

newmills

Recently one sunday night about 11.30 p.m i heard a commotion outside our house. I looked out the bedroom window to see a guard trying to cut open the lock, on the gate of the club they were locked in to!! They obviously had been sleeping or dossing round the back of the hall and when they came to leave, the gates were locked and they couldn't get out. The other guard told the guy to move while he rammed the gate to bust it open. The best laugh is, that the chain and lock are only for show, and had he looked at it properly they would have been out in a flash!! I filmed it with my mobile phone and nearly burst laughing at the pair of eejits!! God loves a trier!!

ojewriej

Eglinton wrote: »

A guard with 17 years service only gets €48,695? Really? I was on that within two years. How do they feed their families? Or am I reading those pay scales incorrectly? I know you can make up more with overtime (€31 according to that) but it's not nice to have to depend on overtime.

That's is the way it is. You get various extras i.e. for working on sundays or nights etc., but the truth is that wages aren't as good as a lot of people believe.

pixbyjohn

Quotefrom dc69
(Any guard I have ever met or any guard I know,are uneducated dickheads and every guard I know,joined the force because they either didnt want to go to college,failed or dropped out or couldnt do anything else.)

Thats a very generalised statement and can you really back it up with evidence.
You would be the first to cry foul if the Gardai put you in the same category as every criminal in the country.
There are a few rogue gardai but most of them surely are not as you say.

ojewriej

chalad07 wrote: »

come on though, it's a bit much for a someone that might be 25 to be told when to go to bed, when they can watch tv, when they do anything,

Ok, sorry I snapped at you , I thought you just wanted to have a cheap shot at the guards, but now i see you are actually making a point.

I see what you are saying, but look at it this way: When you become a garda, you get a lot of powers over ordinary citizens. Garda managment has to make sure that people who wield these powers have enough discipline not to abuse them. And all the stuff you go through when in templemore teaches you discipline. In a way, it also prepares you for all the inonvieneinces of the job - and there is plenty.

chalad07 wrote: »

I know a guard, and he'll freely admit that most of the people he's working with are crap at their jobs - they see it as an easy life. From what i can see the cops dont make much efforts trying to recruit a better standard of people - graduates etc. From what i know there is no 'fast track' program similar to the army cadets. This type of thing would attract better recruits,

It is a good point. All I can say to that is that Garda Siochana recently got a new comissioner. One of the first thing he did was a review of the training process, I believe a full report and reccomendations should be published shortly. A lot of people hope that changes in training is just a begining of a longer process of making Garda Siochana more up to date with the society we live in.

And one more thing - 3 years ago the age limit was increased form 28 to 35, in order to attract more mature and more experienced candidates. Just talking to the people who post here on boards, there is plenty of applicants who are in their early thirties, a lot of them with various degrees. I believe we should see the change in the guards, shortly, when they will come out of training.

dutchcat

sam34 wrote: »

my father used to say that to get into the guards all you have to be is tall and thick!

He forgot their parents must be unmarried

challengemaster

They're fairly useless, I mean there's hardly ever in the Garda station around here, at any time.

Oh, and things to prove they're fairly lazy, From boards.ie:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055317667
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055318586

Dyr

out my way the gardai are pretty much useless, they dont fight crime they just regulate it. ive met decent coppers and complete c**ts too but as a force they're in dire need of a kick up the arse.

chalad07

i dont think that the analogy of the army applies, presumably these type of commands arise from the need to condition soldiers to unquestioningly follow orders in a combat situation,

I just dont see why the guards would need this type of Training. There seems to be some sort of tactic in place to brainwash new recruits into the garda way of thinking. It allows little room for innovation, or new ideas, something that is badly need in the police force,

Granted, i have generalised, but it seems that your daughter is an exception, theres not many cops with masters degrees, or any non related degrees. Its people like your daughter that the guards need to concentrate on recruiting

Terry

Lilibet wrote: »

Why do people always assume that the Gardai are uneducated or stupid when,in fact, many of them are extremely well educated even before they follow a career in An Garda Siochana.My daughter is very well educated to Masters level and is joining the force as are some friends of hers at a similar level.So don't insult their intelligence with ill informed generalisations.
As for being told what time to go to bed,it is all part of training to obey lawful commands of a superior officer.Amazing that people seem to have a problem with that but don't question when 25year old army trainees have to obey rules while in barracks.

Ahh, pay no mind to these comments.

Most of them are from people who are as poorly educated as they claim the Gardaí are.

Lilibet

Why do people always assume that the Gardai are uneducated or stupid when,in fact, many of them are extremely well educated even before they follow a career in An Garda Siochana.My daughter is very well educated to Masters level and is joining the force as are some friends of hers at a similar level.So don't insult their intelligence with ill informed generalisations.
As for being told what time to go to bed,it is all part of training to obey lawful commands of a superior officer.Amazing that people seem to have a problem with that but don't question when 25year old army trainees have to obey rules while in barracks.

markpb

Mr.S wrote: »

very rarley see a garda on the streets, even in town their hard to come by. was in Edinburgh recently, and the amount of Police was mad, every street had 2 police men patroling, always to be seen.

Rb wrote: »

Yeah NY has a great police force. When I was there in January I was able to wander about by myself at 3-4am without having to worry too much due to there being police patrolling.

The main reason for that is numbers. There are 229 people for every member of NYPD but 309 for every member of AGS. New York is also a lot smaller area to cover than the Republic so you end up with more police officers per person and per area. High visibility policing works well, we don't have it here so every scumbag in the country knows they have a great chance of getting away with anything they like no matter how good AGS are.

source

I love it when these threads pop up, there's never any shortage of people jumping on the we hate the gardai bandwagon.

on the topic of being told when to go to bed, any and all disciplined forces, ie police and military, have curfews for their recruits, It's a way of instilling discipline same as foot drill which student gardai do too.

on the point of people never seeing gardai on the street, well if we first look at some duties that gardai have to perform, ie Public office duties, that's one garda off the street, (in Uk it's done by civilians, and in NY it's done by sergeants). Then you have the foot patrol, usually you'd have one maybe two gardai out, Most country stations only have one car, so that's another two gardai, then you have the need to do files, and that would pretty much take up a unit. Also "country" stations (usually a medium/large town station) have quite a large area to police, ie maybe 40 odd miles

Now in the city there's not much excuse because a unit could be up to 25 gardai.but as people have pointed out here already the cities are not much of a problem when it comes to seeing gardai.

Eglinton

ojewriej wrote: »

Have a look at their salary scales then -http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml. Pay is not bad, but hardly amazing. And as for pension and other perks, they are good, but they are good everywhere in public service.

A guard with 17 years service only gets €48,695? Really? I was on that within two years. How do they feed their families? Or am I reading those pay scales incorrectly? I know you can make up more with overtime (€31 according to that) but it's not nice to have to depend on overtime.

chalad07

come on though, it's a bit much for a someone that might be 25 to be told when to go to bed, when they can watch tv, when they do anything,

I know a guard, and he'll freely admit that most of the people he's working with are crap at their jobs - they see it as an easy life. From what i can see the cops dont make much efforts trying to recruit a better standard of people - graduates etc. From what i know there is no 'fast track' program similar to the army cadets. This type of thing would attract better recruits,

ojewriej

chalad07 wrote: »

Down in Templemore these guys are treated like children. What kind of grown man allows someone to tell them when to go to bed? Small thing but i do think it says something,

Same kind of man, to whom you will run crying for help when someone will happyslap you so hard that you will fall of your high horse.

FOGOFUNK

**** Boys! Fat Garda!! Leg it!

Terry

phantom_lord wrote: »

they're all doing paper work

That's exactly what it is.

All the liberal hippies are the cause of that too.

You can't have decent treatment of prisoners and an effective police force at the same time. It's just not viable.

ojewriej

dc69 wrote: »

I know a few people in the gaurds,so yeah I have an idea of how much they are paid..

Have a look at their salary scales then -http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml. Pay is not bad, but hardly amazing. And as for pension and other perks, they are good, but they are good everywhere in public service.

dc69 wrote: »

As for your other comment,I dont believe you.Can I have some evidence.

There you go
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/12/21/story812765075.asp

Those are numbers froim 2004, don't have time to look for anything more recent. But since then, to cope with the ammount of applicants, they changed the process and recruit 4 times a year, rather than just once.

dc69 wrote: »

Any guard I have ever met or any guard I know,are uneducated dickheads and every guard I know,joined the force because they either didnt want to go to college,failed or dropped out or couldnt do anything else.

And every guard I ever met or know was/is very helpfull and highly educated or at least very smart. So there you go.

chalad07

I'm generally not one for generalisations, but here goes!

Most guards are not up to the job. The majority of the people who join the guards do so because it's a handy number, decent money, or they like the power. Anyone that is genuinely intelligent and a go-getter will do very well in the guards very quickly, the competition is not up to much,

Down in Templemore these guys are treated like children. What kind of grown man allows someone to tell them when to go to bed? Small thing but i do think it says something,

I know this doesn’t apply to most, but from my experience most. Think we need to start targeting a different standard of people in the recruitment process.

pvt.joker

Great garda bashing thread ye have going on here lads.
Fair play. :rolleyes:

You must have some size of a brush to tar all 12,000+ gardai with.

Get a clue ffs, there are rotten apples in every group of workers, gardai are no exception. The difference these days compared to years ago is that they're being exposed by the ombudsman and being dealt with.

biko

I see them almost every day in city centre.

keen

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