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Why do women have to wear Burkas?

I not being anti-Muslim or anything, ok? But it is in my opinion that the whole wearing of the berka (the whole veil for the body) is quite disturbing and un-natural. Why don't males wear this so other women can't have attraction and impure thoughts? I think it is possible that many of the males they are sexist.

Also, how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes. What about in airports, court, etc. also?

I believe that Muslims and others should have to integrate into Irish society. There is no other country in the world with Irish culture so I think Ireland should change only little bit regarding religion but not totally so I don't believe that Muslim women should be allowed to wear berkas in public places. If a non-Muslim Irish female were to go over to a strict Arabic country like Iraq and not cover up, she'd be in big trouble and may be arrested so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

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farrahk52

Stormwarrior,

The mere act of sleeping with someone is not sinful itself, infact it’s a blessed act (as is holding your wifes hand or letting her rest her head on your shoulders or putting your arm around her or infact any act of love) when done with a husband or wife (in Islam). It is haram / forbidden outside of marriage because Allah tells us so and because he created us, he knows whats best for us. It’s a rule for a test pertaining to this life only and probably exists to stop the destruction of the family unit and society as a whole. Its a reward in paradise / jannah as its enjoyable. Theres alot to be said for celibacy, it purifies you and makes you stronger. How many people do you know that find it difficult to say no? Even joseph (pbuh) was tested by this trial when the beautiful wife of his master tried to seduce him, did he give in? how many men would have said no in his situation?

22. When Joseph attained his full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right. But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him, and she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come!" He said: "Allah forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!" . And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and indecent deeds: for he was one of Our servants, chosen. So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?" He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!
"But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"
So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare! "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"
Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave. Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."
When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "Allah preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"
She said: "There before you is the man about whom ye did blame me! I did seek to seduce him from his (true) self but he did firmly save himself guiltless! ...and now, if he doth not my bidding, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and (what is more) be of the company of the vilest!"
He said: "O my Lord! the prison is dearer to my liking than that to which they invite me: unless Thou turn away their snare from me, I should feel inclined towards them and join the ranks of the ignorant." So his Lord hearkened to him (in his prayer), and turned away from him their snare: Verily He heareth and knoweth (all things).

In the end as muslims we believe that Allahs guidance is best as he created us. Say for eg a manufacturer creates a VCR, only he knows what its functions are and how it should be operated and the specifics, you wouldn’t ask another manufacturer of a brand what its specifics are would you? Similiarly in Islam we don’t follow man made rules as a man will most likely make rules to benefit himself to the detriment of a woman, a woman to a man, a white man to a black and an able bodied person to a disabled person –who’s laws/ guidance should we follow?

71... Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;

Nay the wrong-doers (merely) fellow their own lusts being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? 30:29

Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise an apostle.
17.15

Is he then to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring so that he looks upon it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do! 35:8

By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it, and its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right--Truly he succeeds that purifies it, and he fails that corrupts it!" (91:7-10)

Guidance isn’t only for the layman but FOR ALL HUMANS, we ALL need guidance even the PROPHETS were guided :-

163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms; And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures.

Marriage is not just a piece of paper (that’s what some men tell you!) it holds weight and has responsibility and accountability. A marriage contract in the eyes of God is a religious symbol blessed by Him, its witnessed by other people, it holds accountability and people do feel responsible. Just like we have a contract for other important transactions in our lives such as for loans, jobs, business deals etc we have a contract for marriage. It can be argued that bringing stable children into the world would be more important than getting a mortgage or a business deal!. Unfortunately most men (esp in the west) don’t like responsibility and women tend to demand marriage – they are the intelligent ones because they know if the husband cheats they can take half his assets thus making him responsible and accountable. It’s a sorry state of affairs but Allah knows that people will try and dodge responsibility as much as they can and when it comes to the family unit, it should not be taken lightly.

Life is a TEST, and as in any test there is a reward and punishment system at the end of it. Following rules, striving hard = rewards, just as revising hard for an exam = good results. Not abiding by the rules / failing = punishment. If you were God would you construct a test with no rules (thus nullifying it by its definition) and then rewarding everyone despite wether they passed or not? Would you pass everyone on their exams if they failed to get any answers correct?

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Hell) Fire is surrounded by all kinds of desires and lusts, while Paradise is surrounded by all kinds of disliked [and] undesirable things." [Sahih Bukhari Volume 8]. Meaning that its easy to go to hell and difficult to go to paradise. Generally, it goes like this, the greater the test the better the reward. The stronger the faith the harder the test.

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good, by way of trial. To Us must you return." (21:35)

“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; And He is the Exalted in Might, oft-Forgiving.” (Al-Quran 67:2)

“And know that your possessions and your children are a test…” Quran 8:28

“And we have appointed some of you a test for others...” (Quran 25:20)

*{And We shall test you with some of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to the steadfast. Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: Surely, to Allah we belong and to Him we shall surely return. Such are they on whom are blessings and mercy from their Lord. Such are the rightly guided.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:155–157})

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved from the fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life)" (3:185)

I strongly suggest you read the quran, you can get it from most high street bookshops, if you dont want to buy one you can read one online at :-

http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php

panda100

Some of the responses here,from whom I presume are muslim women are a bit worrying! I see no problem with women wearing the hijab/burka for their OWN religious reason but not to please men!

Zanza wrote: »

Anyway, all in all, islam protected women by getting covered so that they won't be like a sex object. We all know that women are the most beautiful creature on earth *innocent look*; men 'like' women pretty fast for their attractiveness, so beside protecting women, it ease up the attractiveness part for the men (if you ever saw 40 Days & 40 Nights you might understand what I mean).

As a heterosexual women,and Im sure muslim heterosexual women would agree, I believe men are the most beautiful creatures on earth.We both have exactly the same sexual urges so why do men need help in restraining themsleves and women need 'protecting'?? Its a very misogynistic view to have.

farrahk52

Panda

What man would want to see women all covered up ? If we all have THE SAME sexual urges and basically are made up of the same stuff shouldnt we all want to see sexy men and women all the time?. Ofcourse we do, but we choose not to because of our religion. Admittedly some cultures have taken it on board to protect themselves from the 'evil western' influence and men go around shunning women who dont cover up but this seldom happens in the west. Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I agree with you, women can have the same sexual urges, as in the story of joseph (pbuh) i have pasted above. It was a woman or women who tried to seduce him, not the other way round, infact Allah mentions both of them had the same urges!.

The ONLY problem is that men can go one step further as they are physcially more stronger and can rape a woman, whereas women are less likely to. Its just a fact that most men are physically stronger - whens the last time you heard of a woman raping a man?. I am no way condoning it no matter what the woman chooses to wear, i could say if people cant handle their sexual urges thats THEIR problem, but as a society we should be looking at tackling and resolving these issues together.

Men are told to lower their gaze, dress modestly and guard their chastity in the quran so not to look at women and also not to freely mix with them which i think is a darn good preventative measure, probably not to everyones liking though!.

I am sick to the back teeth of western women/men always accusing muslim women of dressing according to what their husbands or men want when its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL. Please dont tell me you dress like that for yourselves - i used to say that ALL THE TIME. None of us would dress like that if we stayed home all day by OURSELVES, we would still be in pyjamas!.

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I hear this a lot from many muslims online and really, they are taking the western culture to extremes. This is very much in the minority and there's no use in going to the COMPLETE opposite and thinking that life would be better. And may I add, fatherless kids, fornication... its a problem of ALL societies, not just western.

farrahk52 wrote: »

its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL.

once again, you have taken the 'big bad west' to extremes. Just because women in magazines don't wear hijabs doesn't make them any less pious, any less modest or any less beautiful. If that's how they like to present themselves, then I see absolutely no reason why not. Its snobbery to insist that they are 'wrong' and only hijabis are 'right'

farrahk52 wrote: »

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

Saying that you feel sorry for these women is possibly one of the most condescending things I have read online for a long time. How dare you judge these women without even knowing them first? One thing you should learn is that generalisations are ALWAYS false. There is a middle ground- a grey area, believe it or not, between dressing in a provocative manner and being very, very conservative. Where ever a woman chooses to place herself is her own choice and it shouldn't make her any less of a moral woman which ever path she chooses. While this may have been your experience of life and how you like to dress, I do believe that the middle ground between the two extremes is the one which I would personally choose.

the_new_mr

It's not usually my style to post without reading all the previous posts but there's just too much.

Just something that I wanted to comment on:
The real "reason" why women are to cover up more than men is not really known (as far as I know). We can only speculate.

On this speculation, I would strongly disagree that the reason is because men are stronger and can rape women if they want to. Men are not animals.

I believe that (and I believe that scientific studies into the psychological reasons for sexual attraction will back me up on this), men are more visually driven when it comes to sexual arousal whereas women are not (as they are more emotionally driven). That's not to say that women don't find men physically attractive. Just that men are affected more by it.

And, it's not just that either. It's mainly about women being modest. Women in Islam don't wear the stuff for the men. They wear it because God wants them to wear it. Plain and simple. Because God wants them to be modest. If you're not wearing tight fitting clothes or whatever then you're not showing off your body etc which helps you to be modest and get rid of your ego.

It's a huge topic.

But please sister farrahk52, I'd urge to read up a little and think about it a bit. Your conviction in faith is commendable and I always like to see someone so solid in their beliefs. Not only that,, but I believe that your attitude towards how wearing hijab has set you free of society in this way is spot on but please don't justify it in some of the other ways you are. It's not correct.

the_new_mr

Okay, I've read all the posts now.

My opinion is still the same but I think that farrahk52 has a lot of correct ideas and I'm with her on about 90% of what she's saying.

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that)

? I don't think thats a burka if it doesn't have a face covering

hivizman

Jannah wrote: »

? I don't think thats a burka if it doesn't have a face covering

There are some pictures and explanations of different Muslim women's head coverings at Why Muslim Women Wear the Veil (scroll down and click on the graphics box). I understand that the word 'burqa' is used in Saudi Arabia for a niqab (the one where the lower face is covered and only the eyes are showing) with a 'nose string' that restricts how much of the eyes are exposed to the public.

Jannah

hivizman wrote: »

There are some pictures and explanations of different Muslim women's head coverings at Why Muslim Women Wear the Veil (scroll down and click on the graphics box). I understand that the word 'burqa' is used in Saudi Arabia for a niqab (the one where the lower face is covered and only the eyes are showing) with a 'nose string' that restricts how much of the eyes are exposed to the public.

Yeah, I know, thats why I'm wondering how a burqa could be a burqa if one doesn't cover their face. I think she means to say something along the lines of a chador or the like, but certainly not a burqa

panda100

farrahk52 wrote: »

Panda

What man would want to see women all covered up ? If we all have THE SAME sexual urges and basically are made up of the same stuff shouldnt we all want to see sexy men and women all the time?. Ofcourse we do, but we choose not to because of our religion. Admittedly some cultures have taken it on board to protect themselves from the 'evil western' influence and men go around shunning women who dont cover up but this seldom happens in the west. Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I agree with you, women can have the same sexual urges, as in the story of joseph (pbuh) i have pasted above. It was a woman or women who tried to seduce him, not the other way round, infact Allah mentions both of them had the same urges!.

The ONLY problem is that men can go one step further as they are physcially more stronger and can rape a woman, whereas women are less likely to. Its just a fact that most men are physically stronger - whens the last time you heard of a woman raping a man?. I am no way condoning it no matter what the woman chooses to wear, i could say if people cant handle their sexual urges thats THEIR problem, but as a society we should be looking at tackling and resolving these issues together.

Men are told to lower their gaze, dress modestly and guard their chastity in the quran so not to look at women and also not to freely mix with them which i think is a darn good preventative measure, probably not to everyones liking though!.

I am sick to the back teeth of western women/men always accusing muslim women of dressing according to what their husbands or men want when its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL. Please dont tell me you dress like that for yourselves - i used to say that ALL THE TIME. None of us would dress like that if we stayed home all day by OURSELVES, we would still be in pyjamas!.

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

I actually do agree with a lot of what your saying. I think its disgusting how much of a commodity the female body has become in western culture.I have felt violated many times when someone has pinched my ass on a night out or wofl whisteld at me when walking down the street,this type of violation would never happen to an Irish man.

However,this doesnt mean I think the soloution is to cover myself up and hide from the world. I think there needs to be a fundamental change of how women are viewed in society.That the focus is taken away from our bodies and focuses on who we are so for once we will be on an equal footing to men.

I dont think the fact that men are stronger leads to more rapes. Im 6'1' and a lot stronger than many men I know.That doesnt make me any more prone to going out and raping someone. I think it must be so tough being a man in this world who constantly have sex and female bodys thrust in their face wether this be page 3,adverts or music videos. I think the way womens bodys are viewed as a sex symbol for male consumption has a huge effect on the way men view women,as more of a disposbale comodity than someone with the ability for independent thought and action. I think hijab or no hijab, rape and violence towards women will always remain commonplace in a society where so much focus is placed on what women look like and the sexual objectifcation of our bodies is freely allowed by the media.

There was a very good letter in the Times today,which I think backs up a lot of whats being said on this thread.That wearing the hijab has little to do with God but to please the male dominated muslim heirarchy.

' Ms O'Brien also contends that the wearing of the hijab is about preserving womens modesty.I taught in Saudia Arabia for two years with muslim women,not only from Saudi,but from Egypt,The lebanon,Syria,the UK and the US, and we had intresting discussions on many topics including the covering of women.The consensus was that the wearing of the abayah,the hijab and the niqab was more to do with the fact that men couldnt control-and were not expected to control-their sexual urges,than with womens modesty. Intrestingly,women must uncover their faces when they go to Mecca,to face God.'

the_new_mr

I don't agree with what's in that letter. Men are of course expected to control to their sexual urges. It's in the Quran and hadith.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the way women have become objectified in modern western society. It's completely disgusting. And although I know that you don't think that covering up is some kind of solution, I'm sure you can see the point about how the hijab empowers the woman wearing it and how it demands respect for her intellect rather than just being ogled at for her body.

panda100 wrote:

I think it must be so tough being a man in this world who constantly have sex and female bodys thrust in their face wether this be page 3,adverts or music videos.

Appreciate the sympathy

You have no idea how hard it can be. It's not easy for a guy to lower his gaze when it's just all over the place. All we can do is try. What shocks me is that so many women are actually supportive of all of this saying that it's about independence from men etc. I can't help but feel that a lot of women have been tricked or something. I just don't know how those women who dance the way they do in hip-hop videos are happy with it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

panda100 wrote: »

As a heterosexual women,and Im sure muslim heterosexual women would agree, I believe men are the most beautiful creatures on earth.We both have exactly the same sexual urges so why do men need help in restraining themsleves and women need 'protecting'?? Its a very misogynistic view to have.

No we don't & there's a very good reason for it. Men have nothing to lose from sex/pregnancy but a small amount of semen, with which they can produce in a few hours. Women on the other hand have to put a lot of energy into bringing up a child. They also have a shorter timespan for fertility & a far more limited amount of ovaries compared with sperm for men.

Therefore a women who has more control over her urges is less likely to pick a poor partner & get impregnated. So if she waits & chooses a better partner her baby stands a better chance of surving & having a family of its own, and her genes get passed on. Doesn't matter for men because a pregnancy has no influence on their ability to have children with a better mother figure.

Assuming Islam is the truth I would imagine this could be a factor in Allah deciding women should have stricter clothing requirements. I don't know if Allah thinks in a similar manner as humans of course

It's an interesting topic, I would say a niqab is an out & out tool of opression but I previously would have said the same about a burqa, and farrahk shows that's clearly not the case.

Headscarves & modest clothes though, can completely understand that alright. Though I think that only really happened after I knew a female Muslim in college who wore a headscarf & became aware she was the last person in the world who'd put up with any oppression. So can understand a lot of the misconceptions. I suppose this shows how integration really is the only answer. If everyone knew a Muslim girl in school who wore a headscarf there probably wouldn't be so many misconceptions.

While slightly off-topic, anyone else ever think about the way Sikh men are never described as oppressed by their wives for being required to wear a Turban?
Kind of suggests the opposition to female Muslims observing hijab by western women is another example of over-zealous feminist ignorance.

Jannah

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

anyone else ever think about the way Sikh men are never described as oppressed by their wives for being required to wear a Turban?

No, hijabs and turbans are quite different. Hijab means not only covering their hair also every other part of their body except for their hands in long loose clothing. Sikh men aren't by any means required to do this. If anything, the turban is simply practical because, since Sikhs choose not to cut or in any way remove their hair, their hair grows extremely long and it is simply easier to put it into a turban. There's also the aspect of it being there to retain his dignity and show his religiousity, which I suppose would be similar to hijab. The difference is that women who wear hijab aren't supposed to take it off in front of males who aren't related or their husbands, while Sikh men can pretty much do whatever they want with their turban, so long as they don't cut the hair underneath. I think its the whole idea of men not being allowed to see the woman without a hijab that makes people think that she is being opressed. There's also the fact that in a minority of Muslim countries its illegal for a woman to be seen in public without hijab which is very unfair and it is pretty obvious that people would see this as opressive to a woman who is born in that country and must follow the law and cover.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What? I didn't say they were the same.

And Sikhs are required to wear them. They're also required to not cut their hair.

blackthorn

Hi Jannah, I would have sent you this link by PM but that's not working. It's a blog I enjoy a lot and I think it might be useful to let you see how hijab wearing women talk about it among ourselves. It might be no harm to get beyond the theory around hijab and see the practical living of it for women today.

http://hijabstyle.blogspot.com/

Jannah

I'll never understand why some hijabis wear so much make-up... doesn't that just completely undermine the whole idea of modesty and stopping men from looking at them? I once talked to an Egyptian hijabi online and she said that its a way of 'compensating' for having to cover hair...

blackthorn

I'll venture to say they wear it for the same reason non hijabi women wear it, because it helps them feel confident. Others don't wear it, but eyeliner is acceptable Islamically.

Jannah

Well it could also be said that non-Muslim women feel more confident when wearing sexy and attractive clothing, couldn't it? It just seems like a contradiction to cover one's hair as a way of concealing beauty only to make up one's face to such an extent, but its up to the person themselves what they choose to do

blackthorn

I might have agreed with you a few years ago and said 'what's the point of wearing hijab if they're going to wear make up?!' but I don't feel like that anymore. Maybe it's the mellowing of years or experience, but I'm not going to be hard on someone who wears hijab out in the world today. A lot of times its a countercultural thing to do and it can be difficult. They are also up against the same messages from the media of what women are supposed to dress like, and the peer pressure, and they are trying to negotiate all that while living their religion. And everyone is at a different point in their journey of faith so to speak. So I would be inclined to go easy on them, and not expect perfection and I would hope for the same for myself.

[Deleted User]

farrahk52 wrote: »

I AM SO HAPPY because i feel so content and peaceful, something i never knew was possible
...
I DESPERATELY WANT PARADISE, this life isn't all its cracked up to be. o be grown, looked after, eventually we are all going to die sooner or later!, this is how i see life, we are born, have some good times, have some bad times and then we die. WHATS THE POINT?

Eh, what? You don't sound happy or content at all.

oceanclub

I am sick to the back teeth of western women/men always accusing muslim women of dressing according to what their husbands or men want when its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL. Please dont tell me you dress like that for yourselves - i used to say that ALL THE TIME. None of us would dress like that if we stayed home all day by OURSELVES, we would still be in pyjamas!.

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

You know, Farrah, it sounds like you have a lot of issues. If religion help you deal with them, fine, but tarring all women with your failures doesn't do your cause any good.

P.

merrionsq

Yes, I'd have to agree with oceanclub.

And it sounds like a classic case of going from one extreme to the other.
There's an old Irish saying: "There's none so pure as a reformed hoor"

Jannah

merrionsq wrote: »

Yes, I'd have to agree with oceanclub.

And it sounds like a classic case of going from one extreme to the other.
There's an old Irish saying: "There's none so pure as a reformed hoor"

EXACTLY! Extremes are never a solution; the grey area and the middle road is the way to go. I would also agree with Bluewolf in saying that she obviously isn't happy- it isn't exactly the most convincing front. Very well and good if one decides they don't want mini skirts and boob tubes (I think I can safely say that I won't be rocking the Jordan look anytime soon... for everyone's sake!!), but what exactly are they trying to prove in cloaking their entire bodies and ranting about how impure and immoral the rest of us are? If anything, its an act of snobbery covered by a thin disguise of "I'm ACTUALLY doing it for God" even though it is an extreme version of what is necessary in Islam

MooseJam

most woman cover up because they will be beaten if they don't

Sineadg

Im not sure if there's any truth in this but ill throw it out there anyway. I once asked a muslim why they dont eat pork and he said that the male pig was not jealous of who the female slept with. And Mohammed (Bless his soul or whatever the saying is) said that if men ate pigmeat they would take on this quality of the pig and no longer be jealous for their wives. I found this a bit illogical to say the least and then he explained to me that Arab men were extremely jealous for their wives. (To be fair, he also said that there can be a bacteria in pork that was harmful to humans). So I always assumed after that, that this was the reason muslim women wore veils, more or less so their husbands or future husbands would not be jealous of other men having seen them as sexual. More or less along the same lines as the issue in islam as to whether the hymen is intact on the first night of marriage?

Farrah I actually agree with what you're saying to a certain degree, and it breaks my heart in a way to see my own daughter who is only 12 trying to sexualise herself with clothes and makeup etc., as well as a kind of obsession with what her peers think and what is 'normal'. In fact it makes me sad to think that i havent managed to give her enough of a sense of her own beauty and worth. But I dont think that the extreme approach that you advocate is the solution either. There has to be a middle ground out there somewhere. And I suppose we all have to find it for ourselves.

farrahk52

Oceanclub, I would like to know what issues you think I have, to just say I have some issues is as intelligent to say you have issues. Please think about what your saying. I don’t binge drink, have sex with any random bloke on a night out and spread STD’s, therefore I don’t put a burden on society, like the NHS (see A+E on a Friday night) I wasn’t a pregnant teenager, I don’t display anti-social behaviour and ive never mugged anyone. I don’t think im the one with issues. I think people like you need to stop PRETENDING society is OK, because its clearly not and prisons are on the increase.

Also regarding tarring ‘all women’ with the same brush isn’t that EXACTLY what your all doing on this site? Theres not just one kind’ve woman who wears the burka you know, how dare we even go there some might say? I find it highly condescending that as a muslim woman who wears a burka (dress from head to toe in baggy black stuff – and i might consider the niqab which is the face covering in the future inshallah) when I give an answer most of you (who are prob not muslim let alone female) don’t agree with it and then continue to tell us why you THINK we wear them! LOL.

Oh and as for me being happy – I assure you I am so content that its difficult to describe, to say i was constantly on cloud nine would probably do it justice - esp when i pray or listen to the quran. IT DOES NOT GET BETTER THAN THIS.

Im very surprised at jannah (who’s name means paradise ironically) he REALLY doesn’t seem to have a clue. I don’t want to go in an argument with you because i have better things to do (sorry) what you don’t know is the basics of islam, so pls go and read up on your religion, esp if you indeed aspire for jannah.

Anyway, at least some of you understand what I mean. Sinead, I tried to find the middle ground, I did all sorts of things to find it, and nothing worked except to cover up fully and follow islam, wise people don’t make their own mistakes but learn from others – I know the saying in the west is the opposite ‘learn from your own mistakes’which is what I did to a point, either way theres no compulsion in religion and all of us are free to do as we wish.

Muslims don’t eat pig because its banned in the quran as it was in the old testament (I have read the bible a few times by the way and will be happy to discuss why I KNOW its not the word of God, but that’s another topic). Just like jannah has limited knowledge on islam (in my opinion) others do too, you should ask a LEARNED person like a shaykh or go to your local mosque for any questions you have as some muslims do not know themselves ...AND THEN PLS ASK FOR REFERENCES FROM THE QURAN OR HADITH.

We are forbidden pig meat and thats why we cant eat it!.

.'He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful'. Qur'an 16:115.

The Jews and Christians are also forbidden from eating pork. Here is a quote from the Old Testament to that effect:

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8

Some Christians say that, after a vision by St. Peter, God cleansed all animals and made them fit and lawful for human consumption. Although ALL animals are cleansed by Peter's vision, this includes dogs, cats, vultures, and rats: but you just don't see people getting excited about a cat-meat sandwich like they do over barbecued pork or bacon.

" As for any beast that is a splitter of the hoof but is not a former of the cleft and not a chewerof the cud, they are unclean for you. Everyone touching them will be unclean. " Leviticus 11:26In addition, the book of Prophet Isaiah said: " Who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places who eats swine's flesh and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;... These are a smoke in my nostrils,a fire that burns all the day. " ( Isaiah 65:4,5b RSV) " Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together says the LORD. " (Isaiah 67:17 RSV)

Also Jesus (pbuh) said the following, so who is Paul to change the law after the vision?

" Think not that I have come to abolish the law
and the prophets: I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17 RSV) "

DISEASES CAUSED BY PORK

The following lists show germs or parasites that are found in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these diseases are contagious while some are proven fatal.

PARASITIC DISEASES

a) TRICHINELLA SPIRATIS ( Trichina worms ) It is the most dangerous parasite to man ( Rheumatism and muscular pain). The infected persons shown no symptoms, recoververy slowly some die, some reduced to permanent invalids. No oneis immune from this disease and there is no cure.

b) TAENIA SOLIUM ( Pork tape worm ) The worm causes malnourishment of the person leading to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression melancholia and digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enter the blood stream then settle down in one or more of the vital organs of the body, for example: brain, liver, lungs or spinalcord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to the system around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea,digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).

c) ROUND WORMS Examples: Ascaris, which may lead to digestive disturbances, appendicitis, obstructive jaundice.

d) HOOK WORMS Examples:Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to anemia, oedema, heart failure or retarded growth ( mental and physical), tuberculosis, diarrhea and typhoid.

e) SCHITOSOMA JAPONICUM Bleeding, anemia and other syndromes. If ova are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis and death may occur.

f) PARAGOMINES WESTERMAINI Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs ( endenve haemoptysis)

g) PACIOLEPSIS BUSKI Digestive disturbances leading to persistent diarrhea; generalized oedema.

h) CLONORCHIS SINENSIS chlonorchiasis-obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.

i) METASTRONGYLUS APRI Causes bronchitis, abscess of the lungs.

j) GIGANTHORINCHUS GIGAS Cause anemia and digestive disorders.

k) BALATITIDIUM COLI Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.

BACTERIAL DISEASES

1. Tuberculosis 2. Fusiformis necrofurus: causing foot-rot which is very difficult to heal.

3. Salmonella Cholera suis: causing cholera
4. Paratyphoid
5. Bruceellosis: Acute, sub acute and chronic. It may lead to permanent disabilities.
6. Swine Erysipelas: causing Erypelas in man. Viral Diseases 1. Small pox: is was a source of infection to man.
2. Japanese B-encepphalitis: It is the source of infection
3. Influenza, foot mouth disease, gas tro-enteritis of the new born babies.

Protozoal Diseases : Toxo plasma goundii- It is a verydangerous diseases.A new born baby of an infected woman may die within few days or weeks after delivery. But if he survives he may develop blindness or deafness.In adult chronic exhaustive fever with enlarged liver and spleen may occur. Pneumonia, or celebro- spinal meninggitis which may lead to death or madness. The patient may become blind and deaf too.

Fats In Pigs: Pork contains more fats than other meats.Therefore, people who are fond of pork are more obese than others. Cholesterol is higher in their blood thus making them more prone to asthereosclerosis cardiovascular accidents and sudden death.

Other Diseases : Flesh of the pork is hard to digest and maylead to chronic digestive disturbances. Pimples, boils, cysts arecommon in pork eaters. These are some of the parasites and diseases found in pork and/ or the skin of pigs and certainly there are many more. There is still no means of killing these parasites, in the tissues, neither has anyone found a method of expelling them, even produced any specific treatment for the diseases.

Having said that, every creature was created by Allah for a purpose. The Prophet always encouraged being kind to animals. Although we should not eat the meat of the pig, it doesn't mean that we should hate pigs. We should show them the same kindness as any other animal, and not abuse or torture them. Pigs score high on tests devised to determine animal intelligence; in other words, they are very smart. It used to be that Europe people believed that pork would taste better if the pigs were kept in a state of filth, but this is not the natural inclination of the pig. When left to their own devices, it is said that pigs do not like to soil their sleeping quarters. As for their tendency to wallow in mud, that is done mainly to keep cool.

64. And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

oceanclub

"Oceanclub, I would like to know what issues you think I have, to just say I have some issues is as intelligent to say you have issues."

You seem to have gone from one extreme to another. You yourself even admit that by saying:

" I tried to find the middle ground, I did all sorts of things to find it, and nothing worked except to cover up fully and follow islam"

Because you yourself are incapable of moderate behaviour, you extrapolate this to apply to others - that there's no alternative to binge drinking than to be teetotal, there's no alternative to "sex with random blokes and spreading STDs" that to be celibate.

You appear to be insinating that non-Muslims are incapable of controling themselves. I'm 37, not a Muslim and indeed an atheist, and have so far miraculously in life managed to not get or give STDs, made anyone pregnant or had an alcohol problem. I know plenty of non-Muslims likewise. Can you explain this apparently miraculous occurrence?

This is what I meant when I said you had issues.

There's an interesting book called "The True Believer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

The author's theory is that there's two of people; fervent believers and moderates. The odd thing about fervent believers is that they are the ones who will switch between two opposing belief systems; moderates are rarely recruited. For example, in 1930s France, many of those who eventually became the far-right were initially on the far-left.

"Also regarding tarring 'all women' with the same brush isn't that EXACTLY what your all doing on this site? Theres not just one kind've woman who wears the burka you know, how dare we even go there some might say? "

I don't remember saying any remark about "all women", just about you in particular.

"IT DOES NOT GET BETTER THAN THIS"

Yes, because the happiest people are those who tend to shout most about it. It's as they're if reassuring themselves and others around that they are, indeed, happy.

P.

farrahk52

Because you yourself are incapable of moderate behaviour, you extrapolate this to apply to others - that there's no alternative to binge drinking than to be teetotal, there's no alternative to "sex with random blokes and spreading STDs" that to be celibate.

You appear to be insinating that non-Muslims are incapable of controling themselves. I'm 37, not a Muslim and indeed an atheist, and have so far miraculously in life managed to not get or give STDs, made anyone pregnant or had an alcohol problem. I know plenty of non-Muslims likewise. Can you explain this apparently miraculous occurrence? This is what I meant when I said you had issues'

Ok, hopefully i wont need to explain this again. I was trying to be MODERATE in trying alternative ways to be 'happy' and i couldnt do it without fully implementing islam. If this makes me incapable of being a moderate, then so be it. As you have made decisions in your life based on your life experiences so have i and if that makes me happy i couldnt care less what you or anyone else thinks. If i were you I would go to AA (Alcoholics Anon) meetings and ask them what they think about this problem of binge drinking, they ONLY advise members to be teetotal because otherwise they tend to always fall back - its a huge problem. Alcoholism is the one disease that is legal in the west that doesnt have a bacterial or viral cause and destroys health, lives and families. Ofcourse in moderation it is 'ok' but we all have stresses in life and certain people with a certain predisposition cannot handle them and take to the bottle. When people drink they do stupid things like sleep around unprotected (and im glad you dont have a STD, but the problem is on the increase rapidly and the govt. is trying to tackle it by throwing huge amounts of money at it as usual).

This is from the independant :-

'Four of out 10 sexually active 13-14-year-olds were drunk or stoned when they first had intercourse and over one in 10 aged 15 to 16 said they had had sex they regretted after drinking.

The report said sexually transmitted infection rates have risen rapidly over the past 12 years, with chlamydia and HIV both increasing by 300 per cent, gonorrhoea by 200 per cent, and syphilis by 2,000 per cent.

Twenty years ago, fewer women drank above the recommended weekly limit than men, but by 2002 their drinking pattern matched that of men. The effect of alcohol on sexual behaviour among women was much stronger than among men, according to Professor Mark Bellis, head of the centre for public health at Liverpool John Moore's University and a member of the advisory group.

A recent Unicef report put the UK at the bottom of a table of 21 countries for children's well-being. It found that more children in the UK have had sexual intercourse by the age of 15 than in any other country, and they tended to get drunk younger and are the third-biggest cannabis user.'

In November 2004, UK Health Secretary John Reid announced proposals for a £300 million campaign to tackle the rapidly increasing rates of sexually transmitted infections. "Prevention messages are not getting through," he said, "We need to act now on sexual health - and make it a priority." It was hoped that this money would help to achieve the government's 2008 goal of having all patients seen at GUM clinics within 48 hours.

£130 million of the funding was meant to go towards the modernisation of GUM clinics'

Why are we spending £130 million on something like this if there wasnt a problem?

'The odd thing about fervent believers is that they are the ones who will switch between two opposing belief systems; moderates are rarely recruited. For example, in 1930s France, many of those who eventually became the far-right were initially on the far-left.'

So if they became the far left they did so after making an informed choice, why CANT people change their minds? i dont understand why people have to stick to what they originally believed in if they find a better way of life, surely we will all come across better ways of doing things and if that improves your life in anyway and of those around you, it would be silly not to go for it.

"Also regarding tarring 'all women' with the same brush isn't that EXACTLY what your all doing on this site? Theres not just one kind've woman who wears the burka you know, how dare we even go there some might say? "

I don't remember saying any remark about "all women", just about you in particular.'

Well i was taking about the whole thread not just you. ALL of us are tarring these women with the same brush - we ALL have stereotypes of what we think muslim women are like, even those of us who are not muslim or female and THEN there are some who dont even agree with what those of us who are MUSLIM and FEMALE say and just want to propagate their own views.

"IT DOES NOT GET BETTER THAN THIS"

'Yes, because the happiest people are those who tend to shout most about it. It's as they're if reassuring themselves and others around that they are, indeed, happy.'

Ok, i am not happy, i just pretend to be, infact i was battered in to saying that, perhaps that would fit your stereotype of muslim women well enough to not warrant a further explanation.

merrionsq

farrahk52 wrote: »

Oceanclub, I would like to know what issues you think I have, to just say I have some issues is as intelligent to say you have issues. Please think about what your saying. I don’t binge drink, have sex with any random bloke on a night out and spread STD’s, therefore I don’t put a burden on society, like the NHS (see A+E on a Friday night) I wasn’t a pregnant teenager, I don’t display anti-social behaviour and ive never mugged anyone. I don’t think im the one with issues. I think people like you need to stop PRETENDING society is OK, because its clearly not and prisons are on the increase.

Muslims don’t eat pig because its banned in the quran as it was in the old testament (I have read the bible a few times by the way and will be happy to discuss why I KNOW its not the word of God, but that’s another topic). Just like jannah has limited knowledge on islam (in my opinion) others do too, you should ask a LEARNED person like a shaykh or go to your local mosque for any questions you have as some muslims do not know themselves ...AND THEN PLS ASK FOR REFERENCES FROM THE QURAN OR HADITH.

We are forbidden pig meat and thats why we cant eat it!.

.'He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful'. Qur'an 16:115.

The Jews and Christians are also forbidden from eating pork. Here is a quote from the Old Testament to that effect:

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8

" As for any beast that is a splitter of the hoof but is not a former of the cleft and not a chewerof the cud, they are unclean for you. Everyone touching them will be unclean. " Leviticus 11:26In addition, the book of Prophet Isaiah said: " Who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places who eats swine's flesh and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;... These are a smoke in my nostrils,a fire that burns all the day. " ( Isaiah 65:4,5b RSV) " Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together says the LORD. " (Isaiah 67:17 RSV)

Having said that, every creature was created by Allah for a purpose. The Prophet always encouraged being kind to animals. Although we should not eat the meat of the pig, it doesn't mean that we should hate pigs. We should show them the same kindness as any other animal, and not abuse or torture them. Pigs score high on tests devised to determine animal intelligence; in other words, they are very smart. It used to be that Europe people believed that pork would taste better if the pigs were kept in a state of filth, but this is not the natural inclination of the pig. When left to their own devices, it is said that pigs do not like to soil their sleeping quarters. As for their tendency to wallow in mud, that is done mainly to keep cool.

The bit about pigs in Europe is just racist conjecture. You won't find anything about it except on certain Islamic websites. As well as keeping pigs cool, the mud also acts as a sun-screen for their sensitive skin. Its obvious that pigs got so mucky because it was possible to raise them penned in small enclosures (unlike cattle and sheep which graze or larger areas).

Cats obviously are thought of as pets. Hence the lack of desire to eat them. People have resorted to eating cats in Famine situations.

Chicken, very commonly eaten around the world, has a strange "hoof" don't you think?

I don't know any non-Muslims who've had an STD. Yet you imply your religion is what prevented you from going down that road. How's that possible oh wise one?

Look at your previous post:
"Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes."
Bouncing from one extreme to another. If extremes of behaviour make you happy, then good for you. Normal level-headed people don't want to be lectured to by someone like that.

oceanclub

farrahk52 wrote: »

I would go to AA (Alcoholics Anon) meetings and ask them what they think about this problem of binge drinking, the advice members to be teetotal ONLY because otherwise they fall back. Oh and they are not muslim.

OK. So you became a Muslim after being an alcoholic. So where exactly am I wrong when I said you obviously had issues?

Drinking is the one drug that is legal in the west that doesnt have a bacterial or viral cause.

I'm not even sure that this means.

The report said sexually transmitted infection rates have risen rapidly over the past 12 years, with chlamydia and HIV both increasing by 300 per cent, gonorrhoea by 200 per cent, and syphilis by 2,000 per cent.

I happen to think the best prevention for this is education. You happen to think the best prevention is to dress woman in all-over garb as in Afghanistan. I guess we'll have to agree to differ. We've already tried extreme religion in this country for 50 years as a solution to all our problems, including locking "wayward" women up for life as bonded slaves in laundries and it didn't work.

A recent Unicef report put the UK at the bottom of a table of 21 countries for children's well-being.

I presume you are refering to this report:

http://www.unicef.org.uk/press/news_detail_full_story.asp?news_id=890

I'm not sure what your point is.

The study refers to OECD countries, none of which ban alcohol. It doesn't compare countries which ban alcohol against countries which don't.

The country which comes out on top - that is, the country with the best child well-being - is the Netherlands, a secular country where alcohol is as freely available as in the UK, which has also legalised cannibis and prostitution, which has a low age of consent, and which has sex education.

Since there's no predominantly Muslim countries on the list, it's not possible to compare them.

So, I presume you think the Netherlands has the best system, yes?

Ahem.....see above

Sorry, not sure what you mean by this.

Iran has the highest proportion of heroin addicts in the world (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2031624.stm) - presumably Islam is at fault? Now, I don't believe that - though I do happen to believe its linked to alienation under an oppressive government - but that's your conclusion of your kind of logic, which links addictive behaviour in the West to a lack of religion.

<blockquote>So if they became the far left they did so after making an informed choice, why CANT people change their minds?</blockquote>

The point, is that the "informed choice" never takes them to a moderate position, but to the extremes. It's nothing to do with rational judgment.

P.