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Which way will you vote (if at all)

DeVore

This is just for my curiousity and general interest. Please be honest if you are or arent going to vote....

DeV.

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Piste

Jabcity wrote: »

Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!

The Lisbon Treaty will not make compromise our culture, if you don't want our language to suffer then speak it! Also on that point Irish began dying out long before we entered the EEC.

Culture is something owned by the people which we all have control over, whether the Lisbon Treaty passes or is defeated Irish music will always sound like cats dying, the Polka will always be from Poland, the Italians will always have made the best opera and the French will always pwn at ballet, culture is one area with the Lisbon Treaty is least likely to affect!

AtomicHorror

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

It is a little odd that Lisbon has thrown together extreme left and right isn't it?

Tbh, in Ireland it's primarily somewhat left and a bit right. With some middle. At least in the Yes camp anyway...

Katniss everMean

DeVore wrote: »

This is just for my curiousity and general interest. Please be honest if you are or arent going to vote....

I would vote yes if I where registered >.>

AtomicHorror

Jabcity wrote: »

Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!

Do you find Texas culturally indistinct from New York? Federalisation itself cannot kill culture. Culture always reflects the people as they are and as they wish to be. Attempts to destroy it inevitably strengthen it. Aside from this, much of what we consider to be "Irish culture" is relatively new. An expression of a nation's desire to make itself separate and then to find itself once it got its wish. Invented, contrived in some respects, but deeply honest in others.

If we are ever faced with a United European States, I'll welcome it. I'm not afraid of losing our culture, because I'm confident that it will always reflect us. It will inevitably change, but only because we will change.

As for multiculturalism- oh heavens no. Not exposure to other cultures surely? We wouldn't want people getting new ideas, would we?

Shiminay

No option to spoil my vote - feckin E-Voting!!!

AtomicHorror

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

what the hell is this? Did you not get to rebel as a teenager or something? I can't take this seriously can I?

Yes. Fight the power. Whatever the establishment is pushing can't be good. Even if The Man offers you an ice-cream, it's probably some sort of strange Italian ice-cream. Even if it's HB, you don't want it because He wants to to take it! Vote No to "gellato", no to Lisbon and NO to HB.

Am I doing it right?

Call Me Jimmy

Yea you're doing it right, unfortunately you transcribed that guy's exact thought process about the lisbon treaty verbatim.

Winters

I will be voting Yes.

Having read the main arguemtns from both the Yes and No side in debth in the last few weeks and made my way through decent portions of the treaty itself I can wholeheartedly say that I beleve a Yes vote would be of benefit to Ireland and Europe as a hole.

I cannot see us loosing any nationality/culture besides what we as a nation are allready throwing away by adapting foreign (UK/US) culture. None of the No arguements have ever actually stood up under scrutiny, particularly when they have been debated here on boards and relevant facts are presented. A yes from me so.

TelePaul

Yes.

cherryghost

no way

AckwelFoley

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

the thought of extreme left and right mixing makes me very worried...

There is no extre left or right supporting the treaty here.

Ireland dont have an extreme right wing party.

FF are too large a party to nail down to left or right of centre. similarly with FG, Dempsy is left of centre.. Lenihan.. right of centre
Labour are left of centre
PD's right of centre
Greens Left of centre.. similar to Labour..
And Sinn fein.. well..as loony leftwing as you will find..

Just do a bit of checking up on the types of parties they are supporting in the EU.. communist parties...

The treaty has being negotiated, our elected politicians have brokered a deal.
It is up to us to now maker our decision.

Im more than confident of the YES vote passing. Statistically, the NO voters are less likely to vote.

Has scofflaw revealed which political party he's a member of yet btw?

AckwelFoley

Rb wrote: »

Has scofflaw revealed which political party he's a member of yet btw?

Im going to take a shot in the dark and say FF.

Ive voted FF for 12 years now... i would support more of their policies than any of the oppisition parties.

Scofflaw

Rb wrote: »

Has scofflaw revealed which political party he's a member of yet btw?

I'm not a member of any, and never have been. I usually vote Green #1, Labour #2, if that's any help.

cordially,
Scofflaw

AckwelFoley

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not a member of any, and never have been. I usually vote Green #1, Labour #2, if that's any help.

cordially,
Scofflaw

How wrong i was.:D

Mr.Nice Guy

I'll be voting No. Why? Read the sig.

Bard

Gu3rr1lla wrote: »

Yeah Norway looks like a nice place! They're not in the EU so they own all their own resources, can manage their own economy, and decide their own laws! Plus they get all the advantages of trading within Europe!

So it's THEIR fault Sweden looks like a massive c0ck hanging over the rest of Europe on the Euro coins?

I'm (almost) undecided but leaning mostly to the Yes side.

Evil Phil

super_furry wrote: »

I'd vote yes, but won't get the chance to because of work and other comittments.

If your employer doesn't give you time off to vote they're breaking the law.

Captain Ginger

To be honest I don't know a great deal about this treaty, I had heard some pretty bad things about it and was set on voting no, but after reading all the pro yes posts in the thread I'm going to do some research and make a more educated decision.

[Deleted User]

Rb wrote: »

Has scofflaw revealed which political party he's a member of yet btw?

Loaded and weak

Let me put one to you:

Has Rb debated the nitty gritty of Lisbon with Scofflaw yet,if not why not ?

HydeRoad

I have trawled all the arguments too.

I have not found one single substantial reason for voting yes, other than lots of woolly, ethereal stuff about it being 'better' for Ireland and 'better' for the EU. Better how? Spell it out. I understand there are a whole lot more countries in the EU, how the political machine needs to be streamlined to incorporate that. How does this treaty do that? "It makes the EU more democratic." How? I have found lots of good arguments that tell me it won't be more democratic. Not one argument telling me in practical detail how it will.

Besides, and it is the wrong reason for passing judgment, I know, but how in the name of God can I trust a word out of the mouths of the political machine that squandered ten years of boom in this country, who spin so much nonsense that nobody knows what is honest any more, and who have let a situation grow where ordinary people on reasonable salaries cannot afford a mortgage on a house to live in, while a golden circle of choice people pour the wealth of this country abroad into foreign property and offshore accounts?

NO.

You have two days to convince me otherwise.

is_that_so

HydeRoad wrote: »

I have trawled all the arguments too.

You have two days to convince me otherwise.

While this may help you are still reading opinions based on their interpretation of facts, even if it is factually correct. IMO you'll be a lot clearer by reading up on the information on the treaty and not the arguments here. It may not alter your position but you'll be informed. It also means you are probably in a better position to appraise all of those arguments.

[Deleted User]

HydeRoad wrote: »

"It makes the EU more democratic." How? I have found lots of good arguments that tell me it won't be more democratic. Not one argument telling me in practical detail how it will.

I'd advise that you just do a search of scofflaws posts.
Heres one that answers that question for a start I'll quote the relevant part of the post in bold for you " *currently the Parliament gets to vote on 80% of EU legislation under the so-called 'co-decision procedure'. If Lisbon passes this will increase to 95% of EU legislation."

Besides, and it is the wrong reason for passing judgment, I know, but how in the name of God can I trust a word out of the mouths of the political machine that squandered ten years of boom in this country, who spin so much nonsense that nobody knows what is honest any more, and who have let a situation grow where ordinary people on reasonable salaries cannot afford a mortgage on a house to live in, while a golden circle of choice people pour the wealth of this country abroad into foreign property and offshore accounts?

Because two other parties that have been stern in beating that same drum are fervently in favour of Lisbon ie Labour and FG.

Personally I've heard a lot of garbage about the privatisation of public services by the No side.
It's rather telling that the head of the main public service sector union,the CPSU is strongly in favour of the treaty.
As I've often said turkeys don't vote for Xmas.
The head of the public service union isn't going to be advocating the ruination of his sector and it's jobs

The importance for workers of giving extra powers to the European Parliament, as would happen under Lisbon, could be illustrated, he said, by MEPs’ opposition to the European Commission’s original services directive.
“The importance of co-decision was seen very clearly with the services directive when its original neo-liberal orientation was significantly altered by amendment in the European Parliament.
“Quite apart from the improvement of the social dimension included in the treaty itself, the capacity of trade unions and other civil society groups to influence legislation through the European Parliament will be significant and this in itself will contribute to the social dimension of Europe.

link

Hope that helps.

Orion

Agent Smith wrote: »

i voted yes becuase i believe in europe.

i voted no becuase i believe in europe. :pac:

lanod2407

I'm voting NO after much reading, listening and discussing.

Main issue is the wide range of possible interpretations of the narrative, and the fact that it will be the European Courts who would ultimately decide if the Treaty means that such items as Enhanced Cooperation over-riding a country's ability to determine it's own taxes, etc.

I've listened to both sides of the campaign and tried to distil the realities from both sides. Also read the Referendum Commission's documentation - and the upshot of it all is that I can see how people can take dramatically different interpretations from the Treaty - so, if that's the case no-one here can say for certain what will happen - it'll be the European Courts who will make the legally binding assessments - not the Church, or IBEC, or Fianna Fail, or Sinn Fein, or Libertas, or Eamonn Dunphy, or Michael Martin, or the guy in the pub! Therefore, it's incumbent on us to vote No because the meaning of the Treaty is too ambiguous.

People say that this has been in the pipeline for 7 years and a No vote would be a disaster - if that's the case, I'd say that the document should have been in far better condition after 7 years of work!;)

lanod2407

Deleted User wrote: »

As I've often said turkeys don't vote for Xmas.

Hope that helps.

Let's face the facts here in this little country: In the past year the Irish people have voted for Two Turkeys (Bertie & Dustin for those of us who haven't had the coffee yet this morning!) - neither of which has managed to go the distance .......... I'd say there's every chance we'll make it three in a row and manage to vote for the Turkey that is the Lisbon Treaty; except this one will definitely go the distance!

oscarBravo

lanod2407 wrote: »

...it will be the European Courts who would ultimately decide if the Treaty means that such items as Enhanced Cooperation over-riding a country's ability to determine it's own taxes, etc.

No, it won't. The courts can't decide something that's at odds with the treaties (anymore than our Supreme Court can decide something that's at odds with our Constitution), and what you've just described is at odds with the treaties.

po0k

This is about as succinct as I can get while in work:
I look for a network society, more competence in local government first.
Centralising power in Germany and France is not a particularly good idea in my view, and it has historical precedent.
Roman Empire II, pre-fall.

As for the military issue, there is far too much money being made in the arms trade for it NOT to lead us (europe) into major continual conflict overseas.
Also, the use of the word "terrorism". That old chestnut. Terrorist or Freedom Fighter? A banana republic who would like to actually profit from the exploitation of their natural resources, and not just the corrupt figurehead government?
Gotta rally round for the coming war with the Chinese in Africa.

I simply do not trust politicians, or their cronies.

There is also the issue of the Charter of Human Rights and the UK's demand for a guarantee that it won't affect their labour laws - which is suspicious enough to make me wary. So cheap labour from eastern europe on the sly, treat em like **** and be none the worse for it. Nice one m'Lord.

I'm voting no to Lisbon.

Also, Fúck Sinn Féin.

molloyjh

po0k wrote: »

This is about as succinct as I can get while in work:
I look for a network society, more competence in local government first.
Centralising power in Germany and France is not a particularly good idea in my view, and it has historical precedent.
Roman Empire II, pre-fall.

As for the military issue, there is far too much money being made in the arms trade for it NOT to lead us (europe) into major continual conflict overseas.
Also, the use of the word "terrorism". That old chestnut. Terrorist or Freedom Fighter? A banana republic who would like to actually profit from the exploitation of their natural resources, and not just the corrupt figurehead government?
Gotta rally round for the coming war with the Chinese in Africa.

I simply do not trust politicians, or their cronies.

There is also the issue of the Charter of Human Rights and the UK's demand for a guarantee that it won't affect their labour laws - which is suspicious enough to make me wary. So cheap labour from eastern europe on the sly, treat em like **** and be none the worse for it. Nice one m'Lord.

I'm voting no to Lisbon.

Also, Fúck Sinn Féin.

1. Power is not being centralised in Europe. The EU will not be deciding on any policy issues that they are not already deciding now. Many of the changes are how the process works.

2. The military aspect is for defense purposes only, basically with the intention that if one EU country is attacked they can rely on the other EU member states for support. The same applies to terrorism, i.e. if one member state is attacked they can rely on support from the others.

3. I don't trust politicians either, but that doesn't have any bearing on the Lisbon Treaty. I haven't paid them much attention oer the last few weeks. Instead I busied myself getting a handle on what the thing was about and deciding for myself.

VoidStarNull

I'm voting yes, for the following reasons:

1. Every government in the EU believes that the structures need to be reformed to make the larger EU more effective.

2. Given that reform is inevitable, Ireland's negotiators have done an excellent job of protecting our interests in this process. It was agreed from the outset that reform would only happen on a unanimous basis - nothing happens until everyone agrees. This strengthened the hand of smaller countries considerably and allowed us to get terms that are equal or superior to those that apply to the larger countries. We also got full protection on key concerns like neutrality, abortion, and tax.

3. Many of the reforms will make the EU more transparent and democratic. For example, not everyone realizes that EU decisions are made by elected national ministers in the council of ministers (and not by "unelected bureaucrats"). The council of ministers are partly to blame for this because they have kept their discussions and votes closed to the public. But under Lisbon these meetings and votes will be made in public. This alone would make the treaty worth voting for, and is just one example of how the treaty makes the EU more democratic.

4. No-one knows what will happen if the treaty falls, but I strongly suspect that one consequence will the abandonment of the principle of unanimity for the reform process. The argument will be made that it is not possible to obtain unanimous agreement between 27 member states and that some states should be allowed to stay outside the reformed EU whiles others proceed by themselves. Abandonment of this principle will impair the negotiating position of Ireland and other small countries, making it more difficult for us to influence the reform proposals and more likely that we end up outside the reformed EU.