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Which way will you vote (if at all)

DeVore

This is just for my curiousity and general interest. Please be honest if you are or arent going to vote....

DeV.

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biko

For what it's worth there is a poll in AH.

See my sig

sink

I'm a definite yes and I am certain to vote. I've been following politics at the EU for quite some time and I find it far more interesting than the partisan politics of the Dail. I read the treaty when it was first published and while I didn't understand it all straight away through reading interpretations of it I believe I have a firm grasp of the issues. I despair at how both sides of the campaign have been run and I hope that people will vote on the treaty and not on baseless facts and scaremongering (from either side).

DeVore

Ok, but your poll is flawed and your link is biased, not to mention that your sig doesnt quite have the reach of a site wide announcement

DeV.

Sugarplum_fairy

sink wrote: »

I despair at how both sides of the campaign have been run and I hope that people will vote on the treaty and not on baseless facts and scaremongering (from either side).

i agree completely, if the yes side manage to loose this they'll have only themselves to blame because they've failed miserably to explain why the no side are (in general now) liars

PrivateEye

No

*The thing is so open to interpretation in areas its unbelievable.

*Ask Fine Gael just how we're going to stay "at the heart of Europe" by

a)losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time
b)halving our voting weight

*Why increase our military spending? It won't affect our neutrality, but it seemsa mega-waste of resources.

*Nations "obliged" to assist each other in the event of terrorist attacks for example. What exactly qualifies as a terrorist attack, or an obligation?

*IBEC think the Treaty is (see their submission to the N.C.O.E) a good thing because it presents oppurtunities with regards the 'liberalisation' of services, among which they include Health....liberalisation?

*450 million people without a vote...thats not democracy. France and Holland voted no to the bast majority of this document.

Agent Smith

i voted yes becuase i believe in europe.

NextSteps

PrivateEye wrote: »

No

*The thing is so open to interpretation in areas its unbelievable.

*Ask Fine Gael just how we're going to stay "at the heart of Europe" by

a)losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time
b)halving our voting weight
.

How can we keep our influence in Europe by losing all the good will amassed over the last 35 years?

*450 million people without a vote...thats not democracy. France and Holland voted no to the bast majority of this document.

Democratically electing delegates to make decisions on your behalf... that's democracy.

sink

prawn wrote: »

I might be wrong but I dont think the Lisbon Treaty will effect the number of commissioners, as it was already due to decrease according to the nice treaty. The nice treaty which Ireland already ratified stated that once the EU reached 27 the number of commissionsers would be reduced.. Then again I could be wrong, please correct me if I am but I have a feeling about this..

You are entirely correct.

Agent Smith

prawn, your right.

We do lose our commissioner by 2014 (at the latest) even if the treaty falls

prawn

PrivateEye wrote: »

No

a)losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time

I might be wrong but I dont think the Lisbon Treaty will effect the number of commissioners, as it was already due to decrease according to the nice treaty. The nice treaty which Ireland already ratified stated that once the EU reached 27 the number of commissionsers would be reduced.. Then again I could be wrong, please correct me if I am but I have a feeling about this..

PrivateEye

UB wrote: »

How can we keep our influence in Europe by losing all the good will amassed over the last 35 years?

Democratically electing delegates to make decisions on your behalf... that's democracy.

Seeing as there was a strong political movement in Britain seeking a referendum, and Sarkozy himself has admitted a referendum would fail in France and other states, it seems unfair 450 million people have no say on this treaty.

As for democratically electing people
*the majority of Labour voters are voting No
*the majority of FG voters are voting No

so who you think should govern your state doesn't seem to come into it.

As for the 'goodwill', I think we'd be the toast of Europe if we vote No. As in the people of Europe.

People, please remember- France was not banished from Europe when it voted No, we will not be either. Our place in Europe is safe, but why weaken it?

Vótáil Níl (and no, I'm not a Shinner...house is traditionally FF)

Daftendirekt

I'll be voting Yes. This will be the first referendum I've been able to vote in, and so I had to do some reading to get me up to speed on EU politics. Originally, I was leaning towards a no vote, but after discovering that most of the arguments against the treaty don't actually have any basis in reality, I changed my mind.

I think I have a fairly solid grasp of most of the main points of the Treaty, and now consider it a necessary step in bringing Europe into the 21st century. I don't think it'll completely revolutionize the workings of the EU, but will pave the way for further progress and improvement. Europe needs to keep moving forward, and I'd like to see Ireland moving forward with it.

Gu3rr1lla

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly"
"All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

-Valery Giscard d'Estaing, author of the original Lisbon Constitution

One of the reasons im voting no!

super_furry

I'd vote yes, but won't get the chance to because of work and other comittments.

Gu3rr1lla wrote: »

One of the reasons im voting no!

And as good a reason as any!

Firm no from me, looking forward to getting it over and done with now. If it goes through I'll be looking forward to moving to a country outside Europe.

JodJunior

PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM - like paddy parse and james connoly if ye vote yes that rising of 1916 was nothing - VOTE NO

Agent Smith

JodJunior wrote: »

PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM - like paddy parse and james connoly if ye vote yes that rising of 1916 was nothing - VOTE NO

AtomicHorror

PrivateEye wrote: »

*Ask Fine Gael just how we're going to stay "at the heart of Europe" by

a)losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time
b)halving our voting weight

a) Everyone else does too.
b) Over-simplified. Ability to push wanted legislation is reduced by less than 10%. Ability to block is increased.

PrivateEye wrote: »

*450 million people without a vote...thats not democracy. France and Holland voted no to the bast majority of this document.

When did this happen? France passed the treaty with a huge majority, Holland by 3 to 1 majority. If you're talking about Libertas's "95% of the Lisbon Treaty was rejected in the form of the constitution..." spiel, how come when they changed just 5% of the text it got accepted by huge majority?

Voting yes.

AtomicHorror

JodJunior wrote: »

PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM - like paddy parse and james connoly if ye vote yes that rising of 1916 was nothing - VOTE NO

Maybe if they could vote, one side or the other could claim them. Since they can't on account of being very dead, I guess it might be a stretch to assume they're in the No camp.

Similarly, the See No Evil chimpanzees can't really weigh in for the No camp on account of being non-human primates.

Sully

Im gonna vote no to annoy Agent Smith

Nah, I havent really decided what ill do just yet. Very much undecided, and dont know if I can even bring myself to vote.

AtomicHorror

Rb wrote: »

And as good a reason as any!

Firm no from me, looking forward to getting it over and done with now. If it goes through I'll be looking forward to moving to a country outside Europe.

Just like the 50% of American's who said they'd head for Canada if Bush got back in?

Iwasfrozen

I'd vote yes, but won't get the chance to because of work and other comittments.

Come on mate, you see how close this race is...
We need all the Yes'es we can get, do you want these dam No-Men to win ? :eek:

Gu3rr1lla

Rb wrote: »

And as good a reason as any!

Firm no from me, looking forward to getting it over and done with now. If it goes through I'll be looking forward to moving to a country outside Europe.

Yeah Norway looks like a nice place! They're not in the EU so they own all their own resources, can manage their own economy, and decide their own laws! Plus they get all the advantages of trading within Europe!

AtomicHorror

Gu3rr1lla wrote: »

One of the reasons im voting no!

There are many valid reasons to vote against the treaty. A quote suggesting that we might be mislead into voting Yes is not one of them. What sort of vast powerful conspiracy of lies announces itself in a national newspaper? We're all still capable of critical reading. The responsibility is on each of us to understand what we are voting for. To hold that quote up seems a little too easy to me.

sink

Gu3rr1lla wrote: »

Yeah Norway looks like a nice place! They're not in the EU so they own all their own resources, can manage their own economy, and decide their own laws! Plus they get all the advantages of trading within Europe!

The irony here is that we in part decide on Norway's laws and they do not. The have to adopt all laws regarding the single market and yet have no say in formulating them, we do!

AtomicHorror

Gu3rr1lla wrote: »

Yeah Norway looks like a nice place! They're not in the EU so they own all their own resources, can manage their own economy, and decide their own laws! Plus they get all the advantages of trading within Europe!

They will be one with the Union soon. They will all be one with the Union.

molloyjh

I'm voting Yes. The No camp is full of lies, myths, misinterpretations etc. Only 2 or 3 weeks ago I was fairly sure I was gong to vote no, until I bothered my barney looking into the thing. I now realise that the Treaty is a good thing for Ireland, the rest of Europe and likely the world too.

PrivateEye:
"losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time"
Two points on this one. First the commissoner doesn't represent Ireland, (s)he rePresents the EU. Second it will happen earlier if we don't ratify the Treaty anyway.

"halving our voting weight"
Plain and simply, this isn't happening. Our voting weight remains largely unchanged (any decrease is marginal at best). And more importantly we're retaining the veto or getting opt out options over the important areas anyway.

"Why increase our military spending? It won't affect our neutrality, but it seemsa mega-waste of resources."
Technically speaking we've never been truly nuetral. And the increased spending on defense budgets is for everyone. If any of the EU states is ever attacked they can rely on the backing of the other members. This includes us, however due to our geography its less relevant. To my mind the way to look at it is that we are either part of this community or we are not. We have to live up to our responsibilities if we're to get the benefits, and to shy away from that or refuse it is childish and selfish.

"450 million people without a vote"
They did vote. Their vote was for their Government. Part of the Government mandates were the negotiation and ratification of international treaties. Everything is above board and totally legit with this.

molloyjh

JodJunior wrote: »

PEOPLE DIED FOR YOUR FREEDOM - like paddy parse and james connoly if ye vote yes that rising of 1916 was nothing - VOTE NO

Yes because this country is going to be taken over by a load of Europeans and the state of Ireland will no longer exist, eh Jnr!? :rolleyes:

AtomicHorror

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes because this country is going to be taken over by a load of Europeans and the state of Ireland will no longer exist, eh Jnr!? :rolleyes:

Ah, pay him no mind. Tiny post count, hysteric rhetoric and crazy spelling = wum?

AtomicHorror

molloyjh wrote: »

PrivateEye:
"losing a commisionare for 5 years at a time"
Two points on this one. First the commissoner doesn't represent Ireland, (s)he rePresents the EU. Second it will happen earlier if we don't ratify the Treaty anyway.

Plus they're an executive so don't have much by way of actual decision-making power... Ideas and implementation of ideas, once the council and parliament say it's ok.