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Civil Service - EO exams

K_P

I've applied for the current round of civil service Executive Officer recruitment. The exams are apparently coming up at the end of April. I've had a look through the test familiarisation booklet and the verbal and numerical sections seem fine. But does anyone know anywhere I could get some advice on the job simulation section? I know they just say to answer in terms of the course of action you would take, but I'd still like a bit of guidance.

Thanks.

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jesusofnaz

the communication i received indicated that while they found it essential to the role, it was only required to a moderately complex level, in comparision with the two other sections.

notlongleft

for those of you who did well in the job simulation - can i ask a quick question - did you go with answers of not getting help from people and doing stuff on your own or what it a management style where you could approach people? Just trying to figure out what kind of style of management/person they are looking for in the job simulation. I did really well on it the first time I did it and then fell down the second time but cant put a finger on where i fell down or how i answered it differently. Any advice much appreciated.

Thanks

AlanSparrowhawk

I got 41/48, 25/28 and 89/125 didn't get past first round. 91/125 was the minimum required for Job sim. I'd love to see what the 5 point answers were.

aguaclara

i got 43/48, 22/28 and 93/125 (actually, that would make vr my best result, oops). so annoyed about the latter. i'd also love to see the 5-point answers...surely they've been leaked at some point?

aguaclara

notlongleft wrote: »

for those of you who did well in the job simulation - can i ask a quick question - did you go with answers of not getting help from people and doing stuff on your own or what it a management style where you could approach people? Just trying to figure out what kind of style of management/person they are looking for in the job simulation.

Thanks

ditto! when some of the options seem so similar it'd be really helpful to know what they're looking for...maybe supercell could enlighten us?

Nolanger

aguaclara wrote: »

does anyone know why they don't count numerical reasoning?

Probably because only IT/Accountant nerds would get called for interviews.
It's called "dumbing down" of the recruitment process.

aguaclara

but the numerical reasoning wasn't hard. i just don't see why it's not considered more important...maybe that's why i'm number 127...

The_Conductor

aguaclara wrote: »

does anyone know why they don't count numerical reasoning? i can see why it's less important than verbal reasoning, but i don't understand why it's not counted at all...

also it was my best score and would have dragged me up a bit...

Traditionally women were less likely than men to take honours maths to leaving cert level. Not counting the numerical ability is considered to be positive discrimination in favour of women- once a certain minimum level is achieved, the score is then discarded.

Obviously this is no longer the case- far more women than men now take honours maths to leaving cert- but the "positive discrimination", stayed. This was an attempt to lure women back into the workplace again (keep in mind women were kicked out of the civil service if they got married- this was until the early 80s).

Go figure........

The_Conductor

notlongleft wrote: »

for those of you who did well in the job simulation - can i ask a quick question - did you go with answers of not getting help from people and doing stuff on your own or what it a management style where you could approach people? Just trying to figure out what kind of style of management/person they are looking for in the job simulation. I did really well on it the first time I did it and then fell down the second time but cant put a finger on where i fell down or how i answered it differently. Any advice much appreciated.

Thanks

Play safe- if in doubt check for precedent- if something similar came up previously- how was it tackled? Was it a success? If not- is there anyone who is likely to be able to shed light on the situation?

Take responsibility for your actions- but don't do anything likely to be errrr- whats the best of putting it- controversial?

Take responsibility for your staff, but above all else be seen to be impartial and fair to them. If a problem is brought to your attention- try to address it in a non-confrontational manner, unless its obvious that this is a total non-runner- at which stage seek assistance from your immediate manager, but do not go over the head of your immediate manager.

Document everything.

Prioritise tasks and be able to recognise which tasks need immediate attention versus which can be delegated to more junior staff (which should still be examined by you before submitting).

Etc- hope you get the picture.

Supercell

I'd guess the role as advertised is a mainly managerial role rather than anything else. Seeing the bigger picture and being good at handling real life situations is preferred, I really don't think its a gender bias thing tbh.

The_Conductor

Supercell wrote: »

I'd guess the role as advertised is a mainly managerial role rather than anything else. Seeing the bigger picture and being good at handling real life situations is preferred, I really don't think its a gender bias thing tbh.

Well- EO is the most junior of the Management roles. Depending on which department you are assigned to- this can mean literally anything from photocopying duties to attending EU Council and Commission meetings (and everything in between).

The reason the maths isn't counted *is* a stated form of gender discrimination, in favour of women. It has been brought up at Council on a number of occasions, but has yet to be overturned (it was most recently brought up by the PSEU- who represent EOs, AOs and HEOs, to no avail).

A general EO role can involve dealing with figures even to a greater extent than some of the auditor roles- auditing claims, conducting financial analysis of research projects, spotchecking payments to the public, comparing entitlements if claimed under one scheme to another, working out people's pension entitlements etc- can all be the sort of thing that might be reasonable for an EO to do (of course you may have a small number of staff reporting to you who you could delegate some of the tasks to- but you are responsible for their work and will have to check it regardless).

cerise

Well done to all you high achievers! I would appreciate any tips on how to bring up my verbal reasoning scores for future exams. Got 34/48 which places me in the middle group. I have practised on some free sites but they are easier and have a lower number of questions than the EO test. I tend to find it tricky deciding on whether its false or can't say sometimes.Got a placing but its fairly low 891 for Dublin and 100 for kilkenny so don't rate my chances on being called for interview and I would dearly love this job.
Thanks

Supercell

cerise wrote: »

Well done to all you high achievers! I would appreciate any tips on how to bring up my verbal reasoning scores for future exams. Got 34/48 which places me in the middle group. I have practised on some free sites but they are easier and have a lower number of questions than the EO test. I tend to find it tricky deciding on whether its false or can't say sometimes.Got a placing but its fairly low 891 for Dublin and 100 for kilkenny so don't rate my chances on being called for interview and I would dearly love this job.
Thanks

Cerise, I wouldn't write off your chances yet at all, several people here have said they had to wait up to two years to just get called for interview and then got the job.
Yet no doubt plenty of people that got called before them didn't make the grade at interview and didn't get the job so its far from over yet

Verbal reasoning was my best score (45/48) - I think it helps working in a support environment for years for these types of exams helps a lot (you have to constantly figure out just what that customer is really rambling on about as they fly off on tangents constantly!).
I found reading the questions first and then the paragraph second the best way, dunno if that helps.
Best of luck when you do get called!

indiewindy

smccarrick wrote: »

Traditionally women were less likely than men to take honours maths to leaving cert level. Not counting the numerical ability is considered to be positive discrimination in favour of women- once a certain minimum level is achieved, the score is then discarded.

Obviously this is no longer the case- far more women than men now take honours maths to leaving cert- but the "positive discrimination", stayed. This was an attempt to lure women back into the workplace again (keep in mind women were kicked out of the civil service if they got married- this was until the early 80s).

Go figure........

I thought the marriage bar was lifted when Ireland joined the EU in 1973

The_Conductor

Its complicated. The original marriage ban was lifted in early 1974, but remained in situ for those who had received gratuities previous to 1.02.74. Meanwhile women recruited prior to this date retained the right to eligibility for marriage gratuities (the compulsary aspect having been abolished, it was now voluntary). Any ladies recruited after 1.07.75 thereafter had a retained right to this marriage gratuity (calculated at a months gross pay, per year of service, with a minimum of 5 years service necessary). It was a very tempting offer for many- and in most cases was the lumpsum used to buy the marital home on marriage. Following the reforms of 1978 it was possible to rejoin the civil service, but your previous service would not count for either pensionable purposes or "death gratuities" unless the entire sum previously paid was repaid with interest within 12 calendar months of rejoining the service.

In the early 80s the 12 month rule was relaxed, and the marriage gratuity scheme abolished.

A continuing problem existed in that many of the women who availed of the marriage gratuity scheme (either compulsarily or in a voluntary capacity) had severly impaired pension rights. This rumbled on all the way until 1995- when a decision was made that going forward all new recruits would pay full PRSI and full superannuation contributions for all 4 main schemes (comes to ~13.5-14% of gross pay). The salary scales were bumped up- to reflect these new deductions, and schemes put into place to enable the purchase of additional notional service for superannuation purposes- so as to ensure 40 years service at age 65 for the maximum number of staff. The rules on the timescale necessary for purchasing these rights and the manner in which they can be purchased (along with the price of these notional years), has been subsequently revised many times since (most recently in 2005 to reflect updated actuarial tables which greatly increased pension costs).

You have to remember that the civil service was used as a glorified work scheme programme for years- in the 1970s and 1980s it was a brilliant political tool for manipulating unemployment figures. It wasn't seen as a "proper job" and those employed in the service were viewed as having landed a cushy number with few requirements. Its only since the Public Appointment Service cleaned up recruitment policies and the numbers were slimmed to reflect the actual needs of government departments that the true nature of the job became apparent.

Even to this day- there are big problems still as a result of the marriage gratuities, and the inability in a lot of cases, of people to repay them in the specified manner. Keep in mind the civil service is over 60% women, and has an average age of almost 50 (particularly given the embargoes on recruitment and the favourable policies towards women in particular).

Quite why the current maths scheme is still in existence is a bit beyond me though........

notlongleft

thanks for that info smccarrick - that should be a lot of help!

gary the great

Dam this application form is hard work, 5 competencies is asking a bit much i think... got 4 done now

The_Conductor

gary the great wrote: »

Dam this application form is hard work, 5 competencies is asking a bit much i think... got 4 done now

Make sure you have backups for them too, for the interview. They often ask you for a couple which are not on the form (particularly if they feel that the example given shows more of a participation than a leading role for you). S.

gilly0512

Supercell wrote: »

I received the application forms for inteview for both the ICT and the standard EO in the last couple of weeks.

The ICT one was straightforward enough, but the EO has me a bit concerned.

The cover letter says that you have to bring two written employer references with you to the interview.
This seems a bit odd to me - usually references are asked for when an employer wants to make an offer?

My other issue with it is the last company I worked for left the country..so no chance of a reference there, and the one before that was over 10 years ago and this time the company I worked for was taken over so have utterly no idea if they have any records of me there or indeed even if anyone there remembers me!
I'd rather not ask my present employer for written reference for obvious reasons at this stage!
This look like a bit of a knock out blow for me

I also received a supplementary application form for the position of Executive Officer (ICT) but did not receive one for the postion of Executive Offficer, so I was just wondering am I alone in this, or should I have also received a supplementary application form for the position of Executive Officer. Then again there may be upcoming vacancies for ICT positions in the areas that I selected, but not Executive Officers, so I'm presuming (hoping) thats the reason why I did not receive a supplementary form?

Supercell

gilly2308 wrote: »

I also received a supplementary application form for the position of Executive Officer (ICT) but did not receive one for the postion of Executive Offficer, so I was just wondering am I alone in this, or should I have also received a supplementary application form for the position of Executive Officer. Then again there may be upcoming vacancies for ICT positions in the areas that I selected, but not Executive Officers, so I'm presuming (hoping) thats the reason why I did not receive a supplementary form?

Not sure what you mean?

Do you mean the form that asks for exam results , job history and competencies?
I got a soft copy by email and a hard copy by regular mail for Executive Officer role, and just an email copy for the ICT one (which makes sense really given the role!).

passinginterest

First Interviews taking place week beginning June 23rd. Details in the post according to the email I received this evening. Great that it's all moving so quickly, although that doesn't mean that getting a placement, if successful at the interview, will be as quick.

dubdub123

First interviews for which EO or EO ICT?

I also just got the EO ICT supplementary form, but heard nothing about EO postions.. so you're not alone !!

Supercell

passinginterest wrote: »

First Interviews taking place week beginning June 23rd. Details in the post according to the email I received this evening.

Best of luck, let us know the gory details!

tSubh Dearg

I emailed in my supplementary information, but got no response as to whether they received it or not. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope they did.

passinginterest

Just the general EO competition, I applied for Dublin only. Didn't get any confirmation that they received the pre-interview questionnaire either, just got an email at about 4.30 Friday evening saying first round of interviews week beginning 23rd June, details in the post, please don't contact the office directly. Looking forward to it now. I've been a CO for 18 months and I know the step up to EO is not big at all, the money on the other hand is a fairly major improvement.

The_Conductor

passinginterest wrote:

I've been a CO for 18 months and I know the step up to EO is not big at all, the money on the other hand is a fairly major improvement.

With all due respect I'd have to seriously disagree with you. The nature of the roles can vary greatly between departments- but EO is a management role, often with a good deal of responsibility attached to it, while CO is purely an administrative role.

An EO will normally have a number of staff reporting to him/her and have responsibility for those under them- including having to do their role profiles and performance appraisals, and is in turn responsible for their performance to their line manager (HEO or AP).

Depending on the department you are in, and EO could also be reasonably expected to represent their department at EU Council and Commission meetings or elsewhere abroad, prepare speeches, prepare responses to Parliamentary Questions, examine and audit finances etc- none of which a CO would normally be expected to do.

EO and AO are also normally graduate recruitment levels, while CO posts would not be.

An EO does start at a higher salary point than a CO does- EUR31,394 versus EUR23,802- but you have to accept that this is reflected in the additional responsibilities attached to the post.

Salary scales are on page 9 and 10 of this document.

Shane

Supercell

31K though in fairness equates to a pretty junior role, I can't see the responsibilites as being too heavy tbh.

The_Conductor

Supercell wrote: »

31K though in fairness equates to a pretty junior role, I can't see the responsibilites as being too heavy tbh.

It really depends on where you end up- and your experience. In some departments its a very basic role, in other departments you'd be shocked at what it entails. Ps- you do get an allowance when abroad along with expenses, which can add up to a very reasonable addition to your salary.

passinginterest

Sorry wasn't very clear, in my current section, of my current department, the responsibilities that I take on are well beyond the basic CO job description. I have an active role in budget management, customer service, answering PQ's, and dealing directly with high level management and Ministers (I'm actually in an IT section, despite not having an IT background and not going for EO ICT). I think it's just the nature of the section that role definitions pretty much go out the window.

I'd well accept that in general an EO would be expected to have more responsibility than a CO and in certain departments EOs tend to be actively involved in staff management, often beyond what they should be (it's a junior management position after all). I'd quite like to stay in my current department, moving out of IT, if I'm successful at the interview and I've been told that it might be possible if I make a request to personnel straight away.

The_Conductor

passinginterest wrote:

I'd quite like to stay in my current department, moving out of IT, if I'm successful at the interview and I've been told that it might be possible if I make a request to personnel straight away.

Home Departments have first call on any personnel currently serving with them, who are successful at open competitions for other posts. If you are successful at interview they will automatically be contacted regarding your performance appraisals and your sick leave record (most personnel sections will supply you with copies of what they are sending to the PAS as a matter of courtesy).Its highly probable that they would not have any issue placing you- unless they are one of the decentralising departments in which case you would have to sign up to decentralise in order to accept the promotion (or if they are oversubscribed at the particular grade they would leave PAS to place you elsewhere).