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Domestic Water Metering

conZ

I know it's inevitable under the EU Water Framework Directive that private residences will soon have to pay for their water used (after a certain limit - the current domestic allowance is 50,000 gallons). Under this directive, the user pays, the polluter pays.

Domestic water metering has been introduced across Europe (Italy, Sweden, UK, Germany...) although the majority of these countries have only 40-80% complete metering systems.

This topic has been of interest to me as I see it as a large source of contracts for Contractors across the country in the near future.

Currently, there are numerous Non-Domestic Water Metering Projects underway (and a couple complete) across the country. These projects involve metering every 'Non-Domestic' water connection across a certain area (at the moment, these are being undertaken on a county by county basis).

Farmers, shops, industrial units, houses with an office attached to it, Schools, Churches, everything with a commercial or non-domestic aspect to it will have a water meter installed and will be charged for the water that they use (instead of paying a fixed charge in most cases).

A lot of smaller shops for example will benefit (most would only have a WC and kitchen sink for tea) and are paying massive fixed charges. Introduction of a water meter could save +€300 per year (an astronomical amount when it comes to making a saving from the council).

Larger customers (farmers, restaurants, pubs, schools) will more than likely suffer. Farmers have the potential to have leaks throughout their land, and should be more careful in theory. On the commercial front, it will lead to smarter use of water.

Schools, Hospitals etc., they are generally older buildings with poor water systems in place, and do waste water. They will have to introduce smart water conservation (use of grey water for flushing etc). If schools and hospitals upgrade their wasteful systems, they won't be getting bills of €36,000+ per year like the National School in Ennis got last September (which sparked off the controversy). I know the National is and old school, with very wasteful systems in place - I walked the corridors there till '98 and every time you left the classroom you could hear the urinals being flushed out in the large WCs.
So in the long-run, schools can easily avoid having to pay massive rates.

In the past few years, it has been at the discretion of the Council whether a company or unit should have a meter installed. Some counties might only have 5% of connections metered, others 40%.
In the past 4-5 years, Councils have introduced Water Meter Installation as a stipulation in the planning for Domestic houses, therefore if you're building a house and you're taking a connection from the public mains, or GWS, you have to install a water meter.

The cause is a good one - water conservation, limit waste = efficient treatment, improvement in water quality, and in the long run we will have a mains water supply that can be trusted country-wide.

So, when are we to expect the introduction of domestic water metering? There will be uproar from the public (one more bill to add to the piles that have been stacking up in the past 2 years, will there be concessions for the elderly/schools/churchs/organisations? People will be reluctant to pay up with the quality of water these days, look at the coverage the Schools got before the end of 200).

People get very, very posessive about their water. If you went up to a private group water scheme of 200 customers and said 'we're gonna start charging you by the gallon after 50,000 gallons' they will swiftly rare up. Every Parish Hall in the country will be filled.

In my opinion, Domestic Water Metering will be announced within the next year, probably before the end of 2008. Brian Cowen will be the man to introduce the plans, and he won't be backing down. Implementation of such a plan will be tough, but they have or will have the majority of the work completed already.

There are, I don't off the top of my head (altough the number is easily found), but maybe 10-15 Non-Domestic Water Metering Projects underway or completed, and I bet if you look at the counties that have not started a NDWMP, there have been discussions and there's probably a budget set aside and documentation on the CC website.

Completion of a Nationwide domestic water metering project will be quite hard (well, maybe, time consuming), a lot of the ground work has already been completed (all new houses have meters, all the farmers have meters, GWS generally have meters on every connection). Under the NDWMP, every commercial building will be metered. Technology for Advanced Meter Reading (Radio Frequency) is easily implemented so there won't be any backbreaking (and potentially dangerous) meter reading going on at the side of roads across the country.

I can't remember Cowen's exact words today, but I heard him say something along the lines of "Some of my decisions will not go down well" - someone please correct me on this.

So, just said i'd see what Joe Publics opinion is on this. Surely everyones trying to cut down on wasting water (The Power of One?). Would you be happy to pay per 1,000 gallons if you went over the domestic allowance? Can you see a successful uptake on Domestic Water Metering?

The domestic allowance, by the way, is 50,000 gallons a year (based on usage of 2 adults and 2.4 children I presume?). Someone probably pulled it out of their head during the 80s. This may possibly be revised upon the introduction of domestic water metering (I wouldn't be surprised - it's gonna be an expensive project).

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Einstein

i think its only right that we charge for water. Why should we take for granted what other countries can't get because of crap governments that do nothing.
This country wastes a ridiculous amount of water.

Simple things like leaving the tap running while brushing teeth is total waste. Who here actually turns off the tap until the rinsing at the end?

Honest now?

[Deleted User]

On the other hand, I don't agree with paying for water. Water is an absolute necessity, without it you're dead. Everything else is optional (electricity etc) and people did without them for years.

I'd only agree to pay for water if the standard of the product is improved. I wouldn't think those in Galway would be happy to be paying for water that gets infected every few months. Plus my parents' house in Kerry has nasty water, apparently one of the locals tested it and found manganese in it. It's a public water supply, not a well. They've gotten to the extent that they use bottled water for anything that requires it to be consumed, and my mam was complaining the other day about a weird smell off some of the washed clothes - again it's suspected to be the water.

Einstein

you can still shower in this water, boil this water, cook with this water...
Agreed the whole Galway thing spiralled Waaaaay out of control though.
You hit the nail on the head about it being a necessity. So is food. Food aint free. Or medicine.

leninbenjamin

Karsini wrote: »

On the other hand, I don't agree with paying for water. Water is an absolute necessity, without it you're dead. Everything else is optional (electricity etc) and people did without them for years.

I'd only agree to pay for water if the standard of the product is improved. I wouldn't think those in Galway would be happy to be paying for water that gets infected every few months. Plus my parents' house in Kerry has nasty water, apparently one of the locals tested it and found manganese in it. It's a public water supply, not a well. They've gotten to the extent that they use bottled water for anything that requires it to be consumed, and my mam was complaining the other day about a weird smell off some of the washed clothes - again it's suspected to be the water.

yeah, the water is still basically undrinkable in Galway due to the obscenely high levels of chlorine and whatnot. on top of charges most are still paying for bottled water. no problem paying as long as it's a product worth paying for, which it isn't at the moment.

Steve

How can they possibly charge for water when they lose more through leaky pipes than is actually consumed????
Not to mention the poison they are supplying in the west:mad::mad:

jkell

I know a contractor who is working in Dublin fitting water meters .They are concentrating on commercial properties first.Have no doubt that every property private and otherwise through out Ireland will be metered..I wonder will the authorities get rid of the old lead water pipes and leakes before they decide to charge for water.the idea behind is to conserve and save water wastage.The biggest wastage of water to my mind is the infrastructure .?
Will water metering guarantee clean germ free water or will we also have to incurr the extra cost of filtering. Will the private water suppliers be cheaper than local authority, Will they outsource to contractors??

conZ

stevec wrote: »

How can they possibly charge for water when they lose more through leaky pipes than is actually consumed????
Not to mention the poison they are supplying in the west:mad::mad:

Well, Domestic and Non-Dom WMP are the first steps in sorting out the water quality in Ireland.

If everything connection is metered and, and Bulk meters fitted on every mains (they're already in place) they will soon be able to figure out where the leaks are, every connection and main can be accounted for and easily sorted out. Everything will be fitted with AMR units that wirelessly transmit the read from each meter so the metering can be carried out in the car using a reciever.

Once they have an efficient water supply, it will be much easier to produce top quality water. Once people start paying for their wasted water, the government and councils can invest this money in treatment plants and on upgrading the infrastructure.
In the last ten years, there has been too much building for the existing treatment facilities to work efficiently, hence the increased number of cases of polluted water.

This project will also increase rainwater storage - so if you don't want to pay for it from the council, get it yourself (not potable, but for flushing etc. but all the same, will surely keep mains usage minimum).

It will be a slow process, but you can bet every water supply in the country will be fit for purpose year round after it (i'd estimate within 5 or 6 years after introduction, but as it stands, the government are investing a lot of money into water - €471 million this year alone).

I know a contractor who is working in Dublin fitting water meters .They are concentrating on commercial properties first.Have no doubt that every property private and otherwise through out Ireland will be metered..I wonder will the authorities get rid of the old lead water pipes and leakes before they decide to charge for water.the idea behind is to conserve and save water wastage.The biggest wastage of water to my mind is the infrastructure .?
Will water metering guarantee clean germ free water or will we also have to incurr the extra cost of filtering. Will the private water suppliers be cheaper than local authority, Will they outsource to contractors??

I'm sure he's working on the Dublin NDWMP - i'd say there are a couple subbies installing them. You'd be surprised, but a lot of the mains pipes and connections aren't classified (location, condition, material). I heard a story that plans for all the mains in Dublin were lost years ago, and there is was no record of them. Once the money starts flowing from the start of the project, the whole network of mains pipes and older connections will be upgraded.

Water quality will surely be guaranteed, as explained above. The EU are coming down hard on member states with this Directive - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=32000L0060&model=guichett (or just search EU Water Framework Directive), but this is an interesting read (though, it hasn't been in the media too often).

Article 9

Recovery of costs for water services

1. Member States shall take account of the principle of recovery of the costs of water services, including environmental and resource costs, having regard to the economic analysis conducted according to Annex III, and in accordance in particular with the polluter pays principle.

Member States shall ensure by 2010

- that water-pricing policies provide adequate incentives for users to use water resources efficiently, and thereby contribute to the environmental objectives of this Directive,

- an adequate contribution of the different water uses, disaggregated into at least industry, households and agriculture, to the recovery of the costs of water services, based on the economic analysis conducted according to Annex III and taking account of the polluter pays principle.

Member States may in so doing have regard to the social, environmental and economic effects of the recovery as well as the geographic and climatic conditions of the region or regions affected.

2. Member States shall report in the river basin management plans on the planned steps towards implementing paragraph 1 which will contribute to achieving the environmental objectives of this Directive and on the contribution made by the various water uses to the recovery of the costs of water services.

3. Nothing in this Article shall prevent the funding of particular preventive or remedial measures in order to achieve the objectives of this Directive.

4. Member States shall not be in breach of this Directive if they decide in accordance with established practices not to apply the provisions of paragraph 1, second sentence, and for that purpose the relevant provisions of paragraph 2, for a given water-use activity, where this does not compromise the purposes and the achievement of the objectives of this Directive. Member States shall report the reasons for not fully applying paragraph 1, second sentence, in the river basin management plans.

50% of the mains water in Ireland is lost through leaks.

Will the private water suppliers be cheaper than local authority, Will they outsource to contractors??

I wouldn't say they'll outsource. I'm sure they know there's money in it. That said, I never took that into consideration. Isin't Bolivia's supply privatised?- and the country is in a state because of it. Must read up on that.

godtabh

conZ wrote: »

The domestic allowance, by the way, is 50,000 gallons a year (based on usage of 2 adults and 2.4 children I presume?). Someone probably pulled it out of their head during the 80s.

Based on 200 l/h/d thats about 73000l per person per year based on the GDSDS. Some figures have it at 220l/h/d some have it at 180 l/h/d.

73000l is about 16057 G. Average occupany per house is 3 so the average consumption is 48171.

So it wasnt pulled out of some ones head during the 80's

Steve

conZ wrote: »

Well, Domestic and Non-Dom WMP are the first steps in sorting out the water quality in Ireland.

If everything connection is metered and, and Bulk meters fitted on every mains (they're already in place) they will soon be able to figure out where the leaks are, every connection and main can be accounted for and easily sorted out. Everything will be fitted with AMR units that wirelessly transmit the read from each meter so the metering can be carried out in the car using a reciever.

Once they have an efficient water supply, it will be much easier to produce top quality water. Once people start paying for their wasted water, the government and councils can invest this money in treatment plants and on upgrading the infrastructure.

In the last ten years, there has been too much building for the existing treatment facilities to work efficiently, hence the increased number of cases of polluted water.

This project will also increase rainwater storage - so if you don't want to pay for it from the council, get it yourself (not potable, but for flushing etc. but all the same, will surely keep mains usage minimum).

It will be a slow process, but you can bet every water supply in the country will be fit for purpose year round after it (i'd estimate within 5 or 6 years after introduction, but as it stands, the government are investing a lot of money into water - €471 million this year alone).

Every new building has a local council tax levied on it supposedly for the supply and upkeep of local infrastructure including water supply, road maintenance, supply of public lighting etc (and used to include refuse collection).

So the fact that in the last ten years there has been unprecedented levels of building also means they had a proportionate increase in taxes to provide new infrastructure.
As the system now seems to be creaking at the seams, where has the money gone?

If / when they start charging for water usage will they abolish this levy? I think not. It'll go the same route as the double taxation on bin collections.

How big are these meters? where will they be put?

Will this scheme involve digging up every road in the country to access the individual water supplies or will users be expected to surrender part of their home to house it?

What's left for them to tax us on - maybe a turd counter on each users jacks??

The Real B-man

How can they justify charging for it? it never stops pissing rain not like theres a shortage in this country :rolleyes:

Overheal

Having water, and having drinkable water, are not one and the same B-Man.

Dinter

I loathe that polluter pays principle.

It's being used to introduce any shadow tax and levies that are wanted.

In my opinion water is a basic human right and necessity. There is no way they should charge for domestic consumption. If the state really gave a shit about cutting consumption instead of raking in more cash they could introduce tax breaks so people can retrofit reduced consumption cisterns etc.

At home I've a water butt that I use out in the garden and I've installed, at my expense, dual flush cisterns. I try not to waste an awful lot of water and I think it is ridiculous that the State doesn't trust people to do this to assuage their own conscience or dares to impose charges on people who don't. I don't mind my PAYE taxes being diverted to pay for it. It makes more sense than that failure of a Health Levy.

Also, why should I have to pay for water when if I was on a lower income I'd get it for free? (I assume there'll be some sort of waiver scheme like with bin charges) I have no problem paying my bin charges, car tax, fuel bills or the innumerable other shadow taxes I'm hammered with every day but I think people definitely deserve to have water on tap without having to budget for it.

In my opinion, if the State has to charge for water than they can take it out of the percentage of our GDP that we give to charity to provide basic human necessities in developing nations. Before we provide wells elsewhere let's get our own house in order.

Wertz

kearnsr wrote: »

Based on 200 l/h/d thats about 73000l per person per year based on the GDSDS. Some figures have it at 220l/h/d some have it at 180 l/h/d.

73000l is about 16057 G. Average occupany per house is 3 so the average consumption is 48171.

So it wasnt pulled out of some ones head during the 80's

...and you see here's where the problems start.
What about low occupancy households versus high?
If it's going to be a blanket average use per house then automatically you're taxing people with large families/households...if you have a lot of kids, you're doing more washing, using more bath/shower water, more for cooking....more more more.
Then add the fact that most larger families are also at the lower end of the income bracket.
I'm sure for people on low incomes, there'd be some sort of grant scheme or waiver....but the fact remains that if you charge by a "pulled out of your hole" average usage € value, you unfairly lumber some households with higher charges, who's incomes are already stretched paying for more of the other life essentials.

It's all very well talkign about grey water recycling and rainfall collection, but for many people in the high use bracket, systems like that are another expense and may be impossible to implement depending on location and type of dwelling.

I'm not shouting down the need for water metering here; we obviously should be paying for a service and paying for that service should reduce wastage and improve quality. But again, fix the delivery infrastructure first...or are water charges going to be used to fund the repair of mains supplies?
One thing I'll never understand in this country is why public buldings and toilets don't use rainwater flush systems already....their use is widespread on the continent. I mean we have ample rainfall here to keep tanks topped up...the amount of treated water produced to a standard fit for consumption, that literally get's poured down the toilet is a disgrace...

godtabh

Wertz wrote: »

...and you see here's where the problems start.
What about low occupancy households versus high?
If it's going to be a blanket average use per house then automatically you're taxing people with large families/households...if you have a lot of kids, you're doing more washing, using more bath/shower water, more for cooking....more more more.

It's all very well talkign about grey water recycling and rainfall collection, but for many people in the high use bracket, systems like that are another expense and may be impossible to implement depending on location and type of dwelling.

That figure is relatively conservative. What is allowed for and what is used can differ in both directions from time to time such as between summer and winter.

If people use water correctly I don't think there would be much of a problem.

At the moment grey water and rainfall harvesting are geared more towards industrial/commercial developments were life time costs can be significant.

Once of housing it can be expensive.

In large apartment developments (which there are many) stuff like this would only add a couple of thousand of Euro per apartment with that cost save over the life time of the building.

If politicans stay out of it a fair system can easily be setup

Wertz

kearnsr wrote: »

That figure is relatively conservative. What is allowed for and what is used can differ in both directions from time to time such as between summer and winter.

The latter being a time when you want to conserve as much water as you can, especially in parts of the country subject to droughts...would usage during summer months be "taxed" at a higher rate? Smart metering? (I know, we can't even get this for electricity in a domestic setting with any ease)

kearnsr wrote: »

If people use water correctly I don't think there would be much of a problem.

I agree 100%...brushing teeth is a good example but unnecessary flushing of toilets...ie using 12 litres of water to get rid of some yellow water in the bowl, or people who stick on their hose/pressure washer for car washing, pisses me off as it stands now. If metering can curtail the waste of potable water these activities contribute to, then it's all good in my eyes.

kearnsr wrote: »

If politicans stay out of it a fair system can easily be setup

In nanny state Ireland? Hardly likely...the greens will be all over this like a rash.

The Real B-man

Overheal wrote: »

Having water, and having drinkable water, are not one and the same B-Man.

Yeah but its a Basic Human Right in a Civilised society and this day & age you shouldnt be charged and well in other countries i suppose its up to them whether they do or not.

Overheal

The Real B-man wrote: »

Yeah but its a Basic Human Right in a Civilised society and this day & age you shouldnt be charged and well in other countries i suppose its up to them whether they do or not.

From Wikipedia:

There is no current universal human right to water, binding or not, enshrined by the United Nations or any other multilateral body. In November 2002, the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights issued a non-binding comment affirming that access to water was a human right:
“ the human right to water is indispensable for leading a life in human dignity. It is a prerequisite for the realization of other human rights. ”
—United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
This principle was reaffirmed at the 3rd and 4th World Water Councils in 2003 and 2006. This marks a departure from the conclusions of the 2nd World Water Forum in The Hague in 2000, which stated that water was a commodity to be bought and sold, not a right.[103] There are calls from many NGOs and politicians to enshrine access to water as a binding human right, and not as a commodity.[104]

While this may be introduced in the future, it is not a Human Right.

lostexpectation

what do we pay out income taxes for eh?

dresden8

Overheal wrote: »

From Wikipedia:

While this may be introduced in the future, it is not a Human Right.

I own my own human rights. They are not granted or gifted by anyone. Anyway, the UN is a morally bankrupt organisation. But that's for another argument.

Governments have only become green and concerned for the environment once they realised that suckers would be more than happy to pay more taxes.

Wake up you saps!

Wertz

There's nothing green about paying for water. The infrastructure, chemicals and staff used to render fresh water fit for mass consumption costs money. It costs a lot of money. By charging the customer for usage over a certain allowance, you cut the costs and thusly the income tax needed to pay for the sundries involved.
If that's a problem then go bore a well at your own expense.

lostexpectation; I agree to a point...our taxes are squandered elsewhere and it means the budgets for providing potable water aren't what they should be...ask any Galwegian.

Padraig Mor

AFAIK most new houses constructed in Ireland for the last few years have to have a water meter as a condition of planning. I certainly have one! And if they put it there, they're gonna use it!

markpb

Does anyone have any idea how this will work in privately managed estates and apartment blocks? I presume most of them don't have water meters fitted so will the council dig up the entire estate to fit them? What happens if the council don't own the water mains under the estate as is the case in most gated estates? If they're not going to fit them, will the estatre as a whole be charged for all the use and divide it evenly between all the owners which puts paid to the polluter pays principle?

godtabh

Wertz wrote: »

The latter being a time when you want to conserve as much water as you can, especially in parts of the country subject to droughts...would usage during summer months be "taxed" at a higher rate? Smart metering? (I know, we can't even get this for electricity in a domestic setting with any ease)

Again it comes down to smart use of the resource. There is plenty of water all year around. The problem comes when people dont use it properly.

Wertz wrote: »

I agree 100%...brushing teeth is a good example but unnecessary flushing of toilets...ie using 12 litres of water to get rid of some yellow water in the bowl, or people who stick on their hose/pressure washer for car washing, pisses me off as it stands now. If metering can curtail the waste of potable water these activities contribute to, then it's all good in my eyes.

Alot of new homes have dual flush jacks specified by county councils. THe new Ballymun development has grey water systems. Invest now and money can and will be saved over the long term.

Problem is people dont like spending money now if there is a long time for return.

Wertz wrote: »

In nanny state Ireland? Hardly likely...the greens will be all over this like a rash.

A lot of this will come from the county councils engineers hopefully. In the past they have been directed within. Alot of them are set in their ways be it is getting a lot better but still there is only certain things that they will and wont accept.

Unless you have a background in this type of thing stay out of it

Overheal

dresden8 wrote: »

I own my own human rights. They are not granted or gifted by anyone. Anyway, the UN is a morally bankrupt organisation. But that's for another argument.

Governments have only become green and concerned for the environment once they realised that suckers would be more than happy to pay more taxes.

Wake up you saps!

Oh dont get me wrong I agree. But you rely on Government to provide and protect your Human Rights. If they aren't going to defend your Right to clean water, well..

You think maybe they paid farmers to pollute our drinking water with carcasses to get a little extra cash? I doubt it.

conZ

markpb wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea how this will work in privately managed estates and apartment blocks? I presume most of them don't have water meters fitted so will the council dig up the entire estate to fit them? What happens if the council don't own the water mains under the estate as is the case in most gated estates? If they're not going to fit them, will the estatre as a whole be charged for all the use and divide it evenly between all the owners which puts paid to the polluter pays principle?

Internal meters are easily fitted inside a building (i.e. seperate apartments, offices etc.) and can be monitored from a bulk meter where the mains come in (to install an internal meter, just find the internal stop tap for the apartment - but most newer apartment blocks would have a series of stop taps outside the building). These internal meters will too be fitted with AMR units so there will be no need for a reader to enter your property.

Installations for housing estates is pretty simple. Install the meter in the location of the existing stop tap to the house. Probably about 2 hours work max. and no major road works (as they are generally situated on paths) but it'll just be one or two men hacking away at the concrete. Water would only be off for about an hour, the rest would be surfacing work etc.

If you walk down the street in Dublin, or any major town, you'll notice new meter installs. The fresh concrete around the meter would only be about 35cm x 35cm. (Meters are quite visible - the newer ones can have round black plastic covers, cast iron oval boxes, or a steel lid.) In rural areas, meters are generally seen in concrete chambers, about 45cm x 45cm with a cast iron lid in the centre.

One grey area is Councils taking over private Group Water Schemes. Is there an official view from councils in relation to this (I've heard conflicting reports). A quick look at the Clare CC website brings up this -

http://www.clarecoco.ie/Transportation_and_Infrastructure/GroupSchemes.html

Takeover of Group Schemes
Funding of up to 100% of the cost is provided only where existing group scheme water quality is deficient, where the group serves more than 50 persons and where the identified solution is to have the scheme taken in charge by the Council. No group scheme will be taken over without the agreement of the group.

Subsidy Payments (Advance & Annual)
The annual subsidy payable towards the operating costs of providing water for domestic use to a group, meeting the conditions of the subsidy schemes is subject to a limit of:

€50.79 for each house supplied from a Local Authority source.
€101.58 for each house supplied from a private source.
€196.81 for each house where water disinfection and/or treatment constructed under Design, Build and Operate option or is operated and maintained by a contractor by way of a bona fide operational and maintenance contract.

Is there anyone here being supplied at the minute by a DBO Contractor?

Was there not legislation proposed about 2-3 years ago that would allow Councils to take over a GWS automatically if they had a majority of the customers signatures?

[Deleted User]

I know of at least two people who, when they had the meters installed had two pipes leading to it one before and one after the meter. (no prizes for guessing who installed the meter!)
The one before was connected to the garden sprinkler and swimming pool etc.

[Deleted User]

Padraig Mor wrote: »

AFAIK most new houses constructed in Ireland for the last few years have to have a water meter as a condition of planning. I certainly have one! And if they put it there, they're gonna use it!

It's been a manditory requirement for some years now, in preparation for when water charges will be impementated.
I see no problems with it as it will force the councils to look at leaks in their infrastructure.

Steve

Deleted User wrote: »

I know of at least two people who, when they had the meters installed had two pipes leading to it one before and one after the meter. (no prizes for guessing who installed the meter!)
The one before was connected to the garden sprinkler and swimming pool etc.

I guess that would show up as a 'leak' then when they tried to reconcile the figures.

cue digging up miles of road trying to find it...:D

[Deleted User]

stevec wrote: »

I guess that would show up as a 'leak' then when they tried to reconcile the figures.

cue digging up miles of road trying to find it...:D

btw they live in the UK but why should here be any different

Steve

Deleted User wrote: »

btw they live in the UK but why should here be any different

I know a resident of that very country who puts a padlock on his outdoor tap at night and when he goes on holidays - in case the neighbours stole his water....

Thought he was a tinfoil hat job at first but it's all beginning to make sense now..:pac: