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Some clearence on the reloading issue???

Grizzly 45

Has anyone seen the letter in this months Irish Shooters Digest from a Garrett Byrne,PO of the DOJ,St Stephens Green Dublin2??

Have enclosed this in file format..

All i can say on this one is...You gotta wonder somtimes what color is the sky on the planet these people are on..:rolleyes:

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Gunter Mauser

Traumadoc, at the very least they have something to give or reduce.:(

chem

just to draw on the canada post, posted by Traumadoc.

Can our beloved DoJ prove anything they claim on the danger of reloading?
Where are they coming up with the information?
At one point they talk about burst barrels then claim that super loads can be made??
Where are the cases (world wide) of AP bullets been used by criminals reolading?
Batchs of powder contain "markers" that can be detected after an explosion and leave it easier to trace the powder that was used.

It seems someone got talking into the DoJ`s ear about not wanting reloading to be licenced and then they got cold feet and are back peddeling fast.

Its a first for the DoJ to come out and send a letter to a shooting magazine

If the panel ment to represent us are not asking these questions then what the hell is the point of them been there? Are they going cap in hand and saying thank you govenor to any bone they get trown?

Grizzly 45

Thanks GM! You said everything I was going to say in the bulk of my article...:D
So I'll add afew other points.
First off a factory loaded round will always be better in quality,than a handloaded round.The only advantage one has in handloading is working up loads that suit ones paticular gun,shooting task or monetary savings.Monetary savings mostly in Ireland,as in the EU it is considerably cheaper to buy surplus ammo to practise with either shotgun or pistol.With our insular situation and exhorbiant inport costs.Reloading does become viable.

High level of training to reload.
There are appx 50million American gunowners and X thousands of the UK shooting fraternatiy who reload every calibre who have never recived any Govt mandated training,and have little to none accidents while doing so.Be it from single handloaders to multi stage electric driven reloading presses.There is more than adequate information out in the public domain written,video,Dvd,or internet for anyone to learn this comeptantly within aweekend.It is no more dangerous than operating a chainsaw or a lawnmower.

Ammo loaded to dangerous over tolerance.
This also occurs in factory made ammo as well!! But is usually caught thru quality control and product recall.It is more unlikely to occur in handloading due to the fact of the lower manufacturing bulk,and unless the shooter is totally incompetant and not following procedure with their own quality control,this is a very rare to non occurance.

Percussion caps
While having a sensitive primary explosive[mercury fulminate].Percussion caps are pretty minute explosive .They are packed in a relatively safe packet,that usually precludes them being spilled out to cause a saftey concern.Short of slamming the packet with a steel mallet on a steel bench they do not detonate unless very roughly handled.
EG
It is ironic that we surround ourselves these days in our vechicles with blasting caps that are capable of detonating high explosives,or detonating to inflate our air bags in an impact. Both highly unstable primary explosives yet one is strictly controlled,the other not so.Where would a competant bomb maker get the explosive detonator??A bunch of primer caps or a .wrecked car??

Criminal use.
Again somwhat questionable,as shotgun powder is a low brisance[ rate of burn to create gas to propel bullet],rifle powders depending on calibre,medium to high,and pistol powders a high brisance.However the amount of Nitro powder to create a viable Improvised Explosive Device [IED] is in the Kilo range with low brisance powders,whereas plastic explosives can do the same with grammes weight.Any competant "bombmaker" can create out of common domestic chemicals found in a household a more leathl device than from gun powder.
On the European black market hand grenades of current East Bloc manufacture are now available for appx 200 euros a pop .
So it is hardly conciveable that criminals with drug money or subversives who may still have access to appx 50 metric TONNES of Semtex here in Ireland.Despite the assurances given that it is "beyond use".Will resort to building IEDs.

Reloading AP rounds
......Red herring...why bother when they can be purchased and easily smuggled??

Difficulty of tracing at a crime scene
Reloaded brass shells will have stress marks from being resized in the reloading press.No matter how cleaned and polished the case will still keep the ejector and extractor marks as well.These are as good as fingerprints to any competant forensic examination.Also it is very unlikely that any criminal would leave spent cases in a crime scene.Or any professional hitman would want to use such ammo that is easily traced.

Sparks

Are we still using mercury fulminate in primers? I thought they'd switched away from that stuff decades ago.

rrpc

chem wrote: »

If the panel ment to represent us are not asking these questions then what the hell is the point of them been there? Are they going cap in hand and saying thank you govenor to any bone they get trown?

Chem, for someone who is intent on having a go at the FCP, would it have occurred to you to read their briefing document issued a week or so ago?

7. RELOADING:
Following advice from the Attorney General, the DOJ had decided to pause for thought on the advisability of allowing the reloading of ammunition in private homes by citizens. The Department has issued a discussion document on the subject setting out the pros and cons from it’s point of view and has invited submissions from the shooting interests.

And later in the document:

Re-loading
The associations are very concerned with an apparent rowing back on the legislation to allow for the re-loading of ammunition. This is a very common practise in a great many European countries and while the associations note the reported advice of the AG in relation to this matter, they are not at all convinced that the advice bears close scrutiny. This view is held based on what is common practice in a large number of European countries, noticeably without the “consequences” which seem to concern the AG.

It seems clear to me from the above that the shooting bodies on the FCP are aware of these issues and are working on them.

Gunter Mauser

If we are adopting the Canadian model for range layout here, lets have the rest of what the Canadian target shooter gets for his dollar namely the same type of abality to reload why not!

They can shoot 50 cal barrets the range regulations distances behind
the backstop must account for this type of target shooting, we don't here have 50 cal ranges and most lightly never will, does the canadian model:p
fit into the same templet we have taken on so that we have clearances behind the backstop that takes into account this type of firearm a firearm
that will never see use?

Reloading final. The next door garage could have stored.

Yellow bottled calor gas x3

several containers of lawn mower petrol in questionable conditions of safety & repair.

Tins of paint.

Garden chemicals of all description.

This garage like similar garages / sheds around the country catches a fire, the result....one large homemaid dirty bomb.

The "licensed firearm reloader" with his one or two little canisters of propellant looks almost conservative in his approach with rules and regs applying to contain his sporting hobby:o

Grizzly 45

Amen to that GM:D
However on the range specs of Canuck origin.Why not build them to take 50 Cal here where allowable by land size or whatever??THEN no one could turn around and say they are unsafe or unsuitable.As I doubt many Irish shooters are going to be pulling up in 20mm bofors AA guns anymore...Well maybe the RDF:eek::D.But they do have army ranges for that sort of thing.

Gunter Mauser

Grizzly, you must be talking Biffo country for this type of target shooting
if it ever takes place! or the wilds of Donegal.:rolleyes:

foxshooter243

Sparks wrote: »

Are we still using mercury fulminate in primers? I thought they'd switched away from that stuff decades ago.

early priming mixtures were fulminate of mercury or pottasium chlorate, or sometimes a combination of both, from the late 20s through the mid 30 s
american manufacturers worked to perfect a priming mixture the same as one developed in germany which was non corrosive and didnt contain mercury. the basis of such priming is compounds of lead ,barium and antimony. the newest primers are the lead free primers of tetracene, these however are not available to the reloader since the production demand is for use in finished ammo especially pistol ammo to be fired indoors where airborne lead presents a health hazard.

Grizzly 45

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Grizzly, you must be talking Biffo country for this type of target shooting
if it ever takes place! or the wilds of Donegal.:rolleyes:

Heard they are talking of building one down in the Curragh that will be accesible to civvies that should be able to take 50 cal.

Gunter Mauser

50 cal's at the Curragh fear the taught:eek: Is that stright from the horses
mouth or some other part of the animals anatomy.:rolleyes:

The fear of claims by the granting of reloading licenses to target shooters could be got around by not having to have a new license for this purpose in the first place!:eek:

Your authorization should be your qualification on completing the reloading course that you receive the right to purchase a speficied amount of reloaders propellant. The liability is now shifted to the sport not the DOJ!

If they want to have a provisional cert to reload under supervision then all the better.
Gunter Mauser.

Sparks

I can't see how the state has liability. If that argument stood up in court, you could sue the state everytime someone with a full licence was involved in a car accident.

Gunter Mauser

Sparks, this is one of many cannards and red herrings that are flying around at the moment. Lets see what is sticking in the craw and dislodge the obstacle. It wont do to have a constant revolving guessing game of let me reload please, what do we have to do????:(

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If we are adopting the Canadian model for range layout here, lets have the rest of what the Canadian target shooter gets for his dollar namely the same type of abality to reload why not!

They can shoot 50 cal barrets the range regulations distances behind
the backstop must account for this type of target shooting, we don't here have 50 cal ranges and most lightly never will, does the canadian model:p
fit into the same templet we have taken on so that we have clearances behind the backstop that takes into account this type of firearm a firearm
that will never see use?

I was under the impression that 50 cals were on the prohibited list in Canada. Prohibited meaning you can't have.

Gunter Mauser

rrpc, from previous posting I understood they could use 50 cal in Canada.
If what you are saying they dont permit this caliber then I stand corrected, sorry folks for the dodgie info! Is this caliber available over in the UK as a matter of interest.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is;
WHO will do the course and set it up and teach it??? I feel we have enough State and other intrested[read out to make a profit and getting a monopoly on teaching] bodies involved in shooting sports.
I mean,isnt it ridicilous that we have more concern here in who is reloading than who is actually getting the firearms...Or that the Irish firearms saftey course consists of reading a book and signing off on it before you get a liscense.Fine,if you want to keep it at that level.BUT I am very dubious that it will be kept at that level.

As for the 50 cal range
Well, it comes from a person who is working and well in contact with the Curragh and it's going ons and is ex PDF.So I'll take it as pretty good info.
50 Cals in Canada ,
Intresting that they have the prohibited,restricted,and non restricted as well.
But this site is intresting in the sense what can still be owned there.www.marstar.ca

.243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

rrpc, from previous posting I understood they could use 50 cal in Canada.
If what you are saying they dont permit this caliber then I stand corrected, sorry folks for the dodgie info! Is this caliber available over in the UK as a matter of interest.

yes you can buy a .50cal styer in the uk from the sportsman gun centre at 3700 stirling or if you want to go for the cream cheese rpa international have brought out their .50 rangemaster a snip at 7000 stirling

Sikamick

Does anyone know if there are any public records of reloading accidents that caused damage to people or property in the UK or the North of Ireland.

Where would one look for this information, it would be interesting to see.

Sikamick

QUOTE=Grizzly 45;55589245]Trouble is;
WHO will do the course and set it up and teach it???

__________________________________________________________________________________

? Does the NRA UK run courses for reloading, if they do I am sure that shooting clubs would have no problem in bringing certified instructors in from the UK to teach members that are interested in getting certified.

As for the NRA USA reloading correspondence course it's theory not hands on, nothing like having a trained/certified instructor working with you.

Sikamick

? Is there any Trained\Certified reloading instructors in Ireland at the moment, if so we have a starting point to run courses in our clubs. Comments please

Grizzly 45

Sigh!!!Why do I feel this will become another elite "Irish Deer stalker " closed shop course.With the usual money spinning attachment behind it??:(.Why not just do it exactly as our shooting saftey course...Read the books and sign off??? Considering if that is good enough to let you off to purchase a firearm and ammo.Should be good enough to let you reload thenas well....
Accidents in the UK.Try the BASC or failing that the HSE in the UK?
Doubt that anyone will come fwd here and say they reload.Due to the "grey area" of possesion of explosive substances.

Gunter Mauser

In his role as chairman of the FCP could Garrett Byrne publish the pro side of the reloading debate! I'm sure he is doing a very good job as Chairman also the experience from his previous posting would make him sensitive
to the other side getting Fair play?

Do we know how the panel feels on this subject, as in how many on the anti side, how many on the pro side and how many Neutrals.

At the end of the day a cartridge has all the components togeather
drop it and you do have a very small outside chance the primer just
might strike something suitable and discharge the cartridge!

Reloading is carried out in a very meticulous step by step way. Good training will teach proper safe handling.

Gunter Mauser

Does the panel have any plans to invite guest speakers from the UK / N. Ireland our nearest neighbor to advise on how the practice of
reloading opperates from the UK authorities point of view.

Some suitable Sports organization presentation (NRA UK ) on how the practice of reloading takes place safely to allay rational fears that might be held by some.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45=Why do I feel this will become another elite "Irish Deer stalker " closed shop course.With the usual money spinning attachment behind it??:

_________________________________________________________________

I am anything but elite, As to the cost of a course , I am firm believer that the Irish shooter pays enough especially those involved in target shooting.

The cost of training up reloading instructors should be footed by the clubs\funds themselves.

Read my posting again.

Grizzly you always seem to take the negative in everything.

Grizzly 45

Well Sikamick
YOU tell us what there is to be optimistic about??? The deer hunting course is a prime example of private Irish organisations at work.And if you are not a member of a club???Glib answer is no doubt join one.But sorry some of us are not club animals or are within a convient distance.I do not consider a 120 mile round trip to the nearest one to me as convient.

Sorry if I sound negative but the general activity of those in charge of shooting is on one side;
the Govt...Ban or restrict as much as possible,waste as much time and taxpayers money to obstruct,hinder,obfusticate,and vexate the Irish shooting industry individual and collective as much as possible.In other words make it expensive for them shooting lot

The shooter side.Negoiate as much as possible, get what we can[No problem there]but get everyone piegon holed and stashed away in clubs where they can be fleeced [I personally think] for as much as possible,on every little bit of dirt, and kept an eye on for any slight deviation from normality.
What is wrong with simply making this reloading issue like this?
Read up a US NRA course.Sign off on it when getting the liscense.If this is good enough for firearms it is good enough for reloading. Why do we have to go thru the expense of sitting in a classroom for afour week period to learn this which is a simple procedure,while being milked by a club again?? I am getting tired by being fleeced by both sides..Negative ..cynical more like.But thats just a nasty of telling the truth.

Sikamick

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well Sikamick
YOU tell us what there is to be optimistic about??? The deer hunting course is a prime example of private Irish organisations at work.And if you are not a member of a club???Glib answer is no doubt join one.But sorry some of us are not club animals or are within a convient distance.I do not consider a 120 mile round trip to the nearest one to me as convient.

Sorry if I sound negative but the general activity of those in charge of shooting is on one side;
the Govt...Ban or restrict as much as possible,waste as much time and taxpayers money to obstruct,hinder,obfusticate,and vexate the Irish shooting industry individual and collective as much as possible.In other words make it expensive for them shooting lot

The shooter side.Negoiate as much as possible, get what we can[No problem there]but get everyone piegon holed and stashed away in clubs where they can be fleeced [I personally think] for as much as possible,on every little bit of dirt, and kept an eye on for any slight deviation from normality.
What is wrong with simply making this reloading issue like this?
Read up a US NRA course.Sign off on it when getting the liscense.If this is good enough for firearms it is good enough for reloading. Why do we have to go thru the expense of sitting in a classroom for afour week period to learn this which is a simple procedure,while being milked by a club again?? I am getting tired by being fleeced by both sides..Negative ..cynical more like.But thats just a nasty of telling the truth.

_________________________________________________________________

[/QUOTE] =Sikamick The cost of training up reloading instructors should be footed by the clubs\funds themselves.

I don't know if you are a member of a club, in our club thankfully our bank account is very healthy. We are at the moment running Basic Pistol Handling course for all our 126 members free of charge due to the dedication of our members.

Our club funds are used for the maintance of the range / Club guns / Bows and anything that is of benifit to our members including bringing in trained reloading instructors from the UK at no cost to our members. "hardly a money making racket"

And as suggested if the clubs put qualified reloading instructors in place there is no reason that people from outside the clubs at a nominal fee could get their course there.

Think a bit more positively Grizzly

Grizzly 45

Glad to hear it that yourclub bank acc is so healthy.:)

No I am not Sikamick,as I said there isnt one within a 120 mile round trip.So whatever I pay there in doing the course I lose in travel time and fuel costs.Now are we talking a day course...no problem then as this could be taught within 12 hours...But a course stretched to ridicilous lengths of six weekends or somthing like that.[Which I belive anyone who could ,would to make some more money for themselves or club] would be not on.Positive...Well I just feel that being cynical/pessimistic about things shooting related is somtimes the safer bet.As you are then never surprised or dissapointed.:rolleyes:

Sikamick

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Glad to hear it that yourclub bank acc is so healthy.:)

No I am not Sikamick,as I said there isnt one within a 120 mile round trip.So whatever I pay there in doing the course I lose in travel time and fuel costs.Now are we talking a day course...no problem then as this could be taught within 12 hours...But a course stretched to ridicilous lengths of six weekends or somthing like that.[Which I belive anyone who could ,would to make some more money for themselves or club] would be not on.Positive...Well I just feel that being cynical/pessimistic about things shooting related is somtimes the safer bet.As you are then never surprised or dissapointed.:rolleyes:

Grizzly if you contact the NRA USA they run reloading correspondence courses cost 25/30 euro. Good place to start get the basics and then attend you local club and get the hands instruction.

What part of the country do you live, if what I suggest worked you would not have to far to travel.

When our club members are trained up to a reloading instructor level we would be more than willing to travel to help other clubs or individuals.

Grizzly 45

Well Sikamick,
That is the most sensible idea I've heard in awhile.:). If we can convince DOJ that the US NRA qualification is good enough.:(.

Down Limerick way,Nowt much in clubs.Have heard rumours that Clare Gunner is trying to get somthing up and running in a range very close to Limerick???

Sikamick

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well Sikamick,
That is the most sensible idea I've heard in awhile.:). If we can convince DOJ that the US NRA qualification is good enough.:(.

_________________________________________________________________

Grizzly I am not proposing that the US NRA reloading correspondence course on its own be accepted, I said that it would be a very good starting point for people to study and then to bring a qualified Reloading instructor to ones club to run a hands on course.

I have seen reloading be done in the UK and in the North of Ireland by qualified people and it is not a simple procedure; you do have to have practical experience to do it safely. Also it is time consuming and requires a person with patience.

Re the worry by the powers that be that every shooter in the country is going to take up reloading is unfounded.

It more than likely that only SOME targets shooters/hunters will do it.

I wonder what the statistics are in the USA for shooters/hunters that reload as against the total number of known shooters /hunters in the country. I think in the over all count reloaders will be marginal.