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Tibettan scumbags

lostexpectation

did you see them on the news wrecking the gaf, attacking peoples places of work and disrupting their hard working lives, see the footage of them turning over cars and one shot of someone attacking somebody on a moped...picking out chinese homes to attack, total scumbags...

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IrishHitman

Tibet/Catalunya/Basque/Palestine: FREE THEM.

Jesus Wept

There should be some sort of Scumbag Olympics to find whose Scumbags are the scumbagiest.

Might be our only shot at a medal.

dsmythy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's not based on ethnicity (i.e. based on their race) so much as it is based on a desire to stop the "silent genocide" which the PR China is imposing on Tibet, that is to say trying to make it more Chinese.

If it were Ireland we would be told that globalisation is inevitable including human migrations.

So the ethnic Han Chinese are moving in and Tibetan protesters attack them and their businesses and only them? I wonder what their real motivation is then if not kicking the Han Chinese out eventually.

If you believe the exiled government Tibetans are now in a minority in Tibet. The Chinese say different but if you believe the exiles what would they do with the new majority? Breaking up countries rarely involves no violence.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The-Rigger wrote: »

There should be some sort of Scumbag Olympics to find whose Scumbags are the scumbagiest.

Might be our only shot at a medal.

Think it might not be a good idea to send our racist scumbags to an event staged in China. Unless it's a one-way ticket, of course.

Kipperhell

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

And as for calling them scumbags, a lot of the rebels are buddhist monks.

Using that logic Christian Brothers and Catholic Priests did nothing wrong because of their faith and order. I am also pretty sure they aren't true Buddhist Monks either and are following the Dali Lama which was not a fair peaceful system that many believe. More like a monarchy.

In saying that you can understand the dislike the Tibet people have for Chinese settlers and human nature will react as it does. Mob behaviour is thuggery and scum bag like.

Tabnabs

OP, do you think the Chinese military stood by and asked politely for the rioters to stop? Or did they use live rounds to quell the trouble?

Is executing civil unrest a solution in your opinion?

thefinalstage

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's not based on ethnicity (i.e. based on their race) so much as it is based on a desire to stop the "silent genocide" which the PR China is imposing on Tibet, that is to say trying to make it more Chinese.

I loved watching the monks give it socks during the protests. Isn't this situation because China took over and won't let them go free>

eldeabroad

free Tibet

*when you spend 40 euro on selected items

WindSock

China is scary and unstoppable.

Pompey Magnus

thelastangryman wrote: »

I loved watching the monks give it socks during the protests. Isn't this situation because China took over and won't let them go free>

It is because the monks have lost power in Tibet and they want it back. They won't be happy until they can tell the peasant population how to live their lives. The religious class want to get back to the good old days of oppressing homosexuals and people of false religions under the theocratic regime of the Dalai Lama.

johnnyskeleton

dsmythy wrote: »

If it were Ireland we would be told that globalisation is inevitable including human migrations.

But in Ireland we are entitled to A) decide who comes into the country and

on what terms they can stay. In Tibet the PR China government decides who can move to Tibet (and actively encourage Chinese people to go over) and on what terms they can stay (usually better conditions than the local Tibetans)

dsmythy wrote:

So the ethnic Han Chinese are moving in and Tibetan protesters attack them and their businesses and only them? I wonder what their real motivation is then if not kicking the Han Chinese out eventually.

It's not just the ethnic Han Chinese, it's all the Chinese people that the PR China have encouraged to go over.

dsmythy wrote:

If you believe the exiled government Tibetans are now in a minority in Tibet. The Chinese say different but if you believe the exiles what would they do with the new majority? Breaking up countries rarely involves no violence.

This wouldn't have happened if Tibet was not under the thumb of the PR China government. You're not talking about breaking up countries like Czech Republic and Slovakia, where they were two separate countries merged together by careless politicians, the analogies between the UK and Ireland are more more appropriate in that China invaded Tibet, exiled the government, surpressed the Tibetan people, and under the banner of progress, are attempting to wipe out the Tibetan way of life. Hence "silent genocide". I think on balance smashing a few windows and throwing a few punches is justified.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Using that logic Christian Brothers and Catholic Priests did nothing wrong because of their faith and order.

Not at all, I never said that Buddhist Monks were unimpeachable as individuals. But the fact that many of the protesters are Monks suggests to me that they are not just scumbags, but are fighting for a cause.

Kipperhell wrote:

I am also pretty sure they aren't true Buddhist Monks either and are following the Dali Lama which was not a fair peaceful system that many believe. More like a monarchy.

They are true Buddhist Monks, as in they didn't just nick a robe and go around smashing things. The Monks in Tibet have been at the forefront of the resistance in Tibet. And no-one is saying that Tibet was a fair peaceful system prior to China. It was, by our standards, backward. But that's not the point. Many people in Ireland (proper Irish people) were happy to live under British rule because they thought that it was the way of progress and that we would be no good at ruling ourselves (to a certain extent that proved true). The point is that it is their country and they should be able to rule it as they please. If the people want a monarch, so be it.

Kipperhell wrote:

In saying that you can understand the dislike the Tibet people have for Chinese settlers and human nature will react as it does. Mob behaviour is thuggery and scum bag like.

I think this is where our central disagreement lies. Mobs can be composed of scumbags, but they are not always so. If they were doing it just to smash things up then they would be scumbags. But in this case they are making a stand against oppression, which is a noble pursuit.

lostexpectation

ghandai could be peaceful why can't these guys be...

AckwelFoley

I think its a little more complicated than simply labelling these ppl scumbags.

While their methods will simply not help their cause, there im sure is reason behind the maddness.

People in groups can be lke a pack of dogs in a frenzy

dlofnep

lostexpectation wrote: »

ghandai could be peaceful why can't these guys be...

Because they tried and it failed. What part of China are you from BTW? You're awfully sympathetic to the poor chinese warwagon. Why doesn't China allow the media to document the events so we can have a more balanced view of what is actually REALLY happening.

AckwelFoley

dlofnep wrote: »

Why doesn't China allow the media to document the events so we can have a more balanced view of what is actually REALLY happening.

I would suggest because the Chineese gov have being slaughering the tibetan people for thast 4 decades or more.

wiredup

lostexpectation wrote: »

did you see them on the news wrecking the gaf, attacking peoples places of work and disrupting their hard working lives, see the footage of them turning over cars and one shot of someone attacking somebody on a moped...picking out chinese homes to attack, total scumbags...

I strongly suspect in the coming days and weeks you are going to regret this statement.

Personally I think the Olympics is an outrage. If you think the Chinese government treats the Tibetan people badly checkout the way they treat their own.

Donald-Duck

lostexpectation wrote: »

ghandai could be peaceful why can't these guys be...

We were really peaceful in Ireland a hundred years ago. Oh wait...

Victor

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

This wouldn't have happened if Tibet was not under the thumb of the PR China government. You're not talking about breaking up countries like Czech Republic and Slovakia, where they were two separate countries merged together by careless politicians,

Of note, there nearest thing the Czechs have ever had to independence was under the Nazis. They never had their own country until the 1990s.

the analogies between the UK and Ireland are more more appropriate in that China invaded Tibet, exiled the government, surpressed the Tibetan people, and under the banner of progress, are attempting to wipe out the Tibetan way of life. Hence "silent genocide". I think on balance smashing a few windows and throwing a few punches is justified.

Of course the Chinese version of the story is that Tibet was a rogue province that split form the Chinese Empire. And later causing all sort of problems like making treaties with the British, which later led to war between China and India. Not that I agree.

Thirdfox

I thought that the history of Tibet was that a few thousand years ago it was a tributary protectorate state to the Chinese Empire, a few hundred years ago it got incorporated into the Qing(?) dynasty's empire, a hundred years ago the British split it up and 50 years ago the Chinese reclaimed it (having said that the declaration of independence in 1913 was made by a Russian envoy and hence illegal under international law).

That's the gist I got from Wikipedia anyway.

I believe that people seem to be picking on China unfairly (over the Olympics issue - no one ever protested or wanted to boycott Americans for their support of Israel's war against the Palestinians, Iraq etc. will people from Ireland be saying that we should boycott the London Olympics for the British involvement in Iraq and the WMD lie?) The Olympics has been apolitical before now (it seems to me anyway) but separatists in Xinjiang, Xi Zhang and Taiwan are eager to hijack the situation to further their own cause (I won't make judgment on whether their cause is right or not, just that the Olympics isn't a good place to make the statement). And the western media has been quick to report on these things (some, out of proportion - not this riot in Tibet though).

Recently apparent terrorists from Xin Jiang tried to blow up a plane flying from that province to Beijing. BBC gave some light coverage and the Irish Times didn't even mention it (as far as I know). Is it important to know this? I'm not sure...but if it was news that the Chinese police was doing anything that could be construed as bad against the local populace of Xinjiang then I'm sure a lot more coverage will be given.

While Chinese news is full of propoganda (I know, I've lived there for a year studying in university) the Western media can be quite biased too...only more dangerous as their sophisticated bias is not easy to distinguish from the blatant Chinese version (no-one reads the State newspaper in China - they all know it's full of holes). I really respect the BBC but even they can sometimes let their impartiality slide (and I was really disappointed to find BBC news blocked in China, but not the NY Times/Irish Times or most surprisingly Fox News!)

There has been quite a few posts put up in AH on Chinese issues which I think would be better dealt with in the politics forum. Over here people are mostly looking for a rant but as a former Chinese citizen (I've been Irish for a long time now!) I cannot let these half truths and misconceptions pass (even though they may not be meant to be taken seriously). It is a nuisance to try and address these points as a proper discussion will take hours (and preferably face to face where people are more inclined to be civil, rather than on an online forum). Like in the Taiwan thread (posted a few days ago) I found a remarkable story that people only knew one side of the story and no one spoke up for the other side... it took a few posts for someone to even acknowledge that I had made counter-arguments and no-one decided to challenge anything I said, just continuing to sprout their views... but maybe I cannot expect more of AH and I'm taking it too seriously. However - people who know nothing about the issue are going to come here, see this thread and take it as fact that China is evil and is completely wrong in doing this (when I argue the truth is a lot more gray than what the media tries to portray it as). As I do not know as much on Tibet as Taiwan (which apparently also claims sovereignty over Tibet) I limit myself to stating the broad facts as I have found on Wikipedia (hardly an agent of Chinese state media).

By the way - the Dalai Lama does not support full independence from PRC -from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/world/asia/16cnd-tibet.html?pagewanted=2&hp
"He maintained that he was not calling for secession from China “in terms of material development is concerned.” “We get much benefits,” from being a part of China, as he put it and said he could endorse only nonviolent protest. He said he remained supportive of China’s hosting of the Olympic Games, but called on the international community to exercise its “moral responsibility” to remind Beijing about human rights."

I would suggest to people who are genuinely interested in learning about the facts of the situation to do research of their own (trying to find objective sources of information can be difficult at times - both sides will want to portray themselves in a favourable light and Chinese sources will most likely be written in Chinese...English media sources are often slanted (however slightly or greater) towards the independence movement - from what I've seen recently).

But for any random person who knew nothing about Tibet or China before coming onto this thread I suggest you to look further before rushing to judgment. If after looking at all the facts you deem China a monster or a saint at least you have made an informed decision (the reality is that China is a little of both - like most countries in the world).

Will anyone pay heed to this post? Maybe, but even if I was able to open one person's mind to start questioning what they are told then it'll be a success (however they feel about China, Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang, Iraq, global warming, the Olympics etc. etc. etc. in the end).

edit:
Here is the thread on Taiwan I referred to:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055245162&highlight=taiwan

You can see what I wrote in post 17 and 18. And see my point of how people just continued to post the anti-China sentiments after my post without acknowledging any of my points (of course they may be of the opinion that I made no points worthy of acknowledgement).

Miss Fluff

Thirdfox wrote: »

the blatant Chinese version (no-one reads the State newspaper in China - they all know it's full of holes).

Whose the "they" you refer to?

Thirdfox

The local Chinese people - the State newspaper is called Ren Min Ri Bao. In Beijing it wasn't very popular with the younger generation - there are better weekly newspapers out which give a more expansive coverage of issues.

edit: and I want to add that I don't think they are scumbags (that term should be reserved for the people who lash out for no reason). The people here seem to be misguided about how best to achieve their aims (aims which I do not support, but I do support their right to try and achieve them if people can see the difference).

Miss Fluff

Thirdfox wrote: »

The local Chinese people - the State newspaper is called Ren Min Ri Bao. In Beijing it wasn't very popular with the younger generation - there are better weekly newspapers out which give a more expansive coverage of issues.

ROFL. Yeah, they are all keenly aware of propaganda and I'm sure well up to speed with what's happening in Lhasa right now too:rolleyes:

Thirdfox

Yes - see the BBC report where they said that the nationalistic youth are blogging away at how Western media is demonising China and how they should respect sovereignty (in words that are more vitriolic than the words I've chosen). They know what's happening, but they don't have the outlook on this as you do. And I wouldn't roll around on the floor if I were you - might get yourself dirty.

Have a look at these news articles too (with their Chinese spin on things as opposed to Western spin):
http://news.ifeng.com/mil/2/200803/0317_340_444154_1.shtml
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-03/17/content_6540366.htm (this is the one I warned you about - on par with Fox News I guess).

Even so - they do get the news (and hey they can read up on the NY Times for a second opinion if they want). How many people over here can say they've read a Chinese news article?

Miss Fluff

Thirdfox wrote: »

They know what's happening,

No they don't

Thirdfox

What a great response - care to back up your assertion that no-one in China knows what is happening in Tibet?

If you simply resort to these childish arguments there's not much point in trying to discuss the (very important) issues at hand with you.

Good night.

Miss Fluff

Because your average Joe Zhang in China is not exposed to international news like we are, or has the inclination to seek it out because the Chinese channels covering "international" news should suffice to most. Why on earth should they question it? Yes, many of the people you or I know in China have been educated and can speak English so can seek out international websites (the ones that haven't been blocked) so to make a sweeping statement like they know what is going on is still making me ROFL quite frankly.

Thirdfox

But you see, I'm making the point that YOU do not know what's going on either (or at least not the whole story) so making comparisons with Joe Zhang is strange in that YOU are not going further than the Western channels covering "international" news (by the way Tibet issues in China would be covered under domestic news

).

Most of the university aged people do speak English and can go onto these American news sites (which I have listed above). For the older generation they know about Tiananmen and Tibet too (I speak Chinese and like to have similar discussions in China). Their views are just as one sided as yours and I criticise them as much as I criticise you.

Making a sweeping statement that no-one knows what is going on is farcical, obviously many people will (probably not many of the 900 million farmers will care about this other than those who have TVs or radios and listen to the news) but most of the 400 million city dwelling folk will take an interest, especially as it's something that the Western media has picked up on to criticise China on again (continual criticism by foreign sources has had the opposite effect in China I have found - people start getting angry and saying who are they to criticise us when they have so many problems of their own - not something I agree with in terms of furthering discussion but that's how they feel now.) See the nationalistic Japanese youth as a good example of what can happen when a country is continually criticised.

TheVan

lostexpectation wrote: »

ghandai could be peaceful why can't these guys be...

Damn, when P.ie went down, I thought I'd heard the last of you.

Whatever your views on the Tibet/China issue, it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect people to rebel in a purely peaceful manner. Ok, Gandhi did it, but not many others. Ireland for example....or even South Africa (remember Mandela was a "terrorist" before he was clapped in jail).

Thirdfox

Equally it is unreasonable for the police to react peacefully to people protesting in a violent manner. They should act to contain the violent protesters (just like with the Love Ulster parade protesters - when people start burning down shops that's when I draw the line)

Tha Gopher

Thirdfox wrote: »

The local Chinese people - the State newspaper is called Ren Min Ri Bao. In Beijing it wasn't very popular with the younger generation - there are better weekly newspapers out which give a more expansive coverage of issues.

edit: and I want to add that I don't think they are scumbags (that term should be reserved for the people who lash out for no reason). The people here seem to be misguided about how best to achieve their aims (aims which I do not support, but I do support their right to try and achieve them if people can see the difference).

State censorship isnt all bad.

If we had it here, yes, the news might be one sided, but someone might shut down the Sindo for being a waste of trees.