merlante wrote: » You know what, you're right. The WIT shouldn't be upgraded because of 'parking'. Because there's no possible way that parking can be expanded alongside everything else. No, you're right, given that there are a fixed number of parking spaces handed out to the WIT by God at the beginning of time, there is no hope for expansion (not even on the new 150 acre west campus). And what about the trees on the College st. campus? Those trees are hardly up to university standard now that I think of it. I can see now I've been peddling a farce all along!
ec18 wrote: » You misunderstood the point of my post. Parking was just the easiest example to use. That at present with current facilities the institute may not be able to cope with a huge influx of students. At present in the WIT there are rarely any computers around to use unless you are timetables to use them. And at night many of the computer rooms are used for night courses, so its possible that you may not be able to use the facilities after hours either (Before anyone says anything about that for some courses the software needed is available in one or two rooms) You mentioned the new 150 acre campus and that is great, but when is it going to be ready? I agree that the SE needs a University, but in its present state WIT would not be able to handle the expected influx of students. By all means in the future when the west campus is completed and all these problems are resolved it should be made a university. But the campaigners do not see these problems, they want it now....and now WIT is not ready.
fricatus wrote: » ec18, I'm assuming you've never worked in any sort of organisation that's undergoing rapid change if you're thinking like that. My experience in the work environment (I'm in IT) is that decisions are not made based on whether absolutely all the little elements necessary are in place. Generally a decision on which team will run a project or what location a service will be set up in, is determined by factors like cost, which services can afford to be dropped to make way for the new, how easy it will be to hire loads of new staff, that kind of thing. Very rarely does any analysis of the details come into it. That's left to the implementors, and it's usually done last and in a hurry. We recently moved 50 people into a building that had no parking, hot water, canteen, waste disposal, etc. And let me tell you: if we had waited for all those things to be put in place, we'd still be waiting, and the knock-on effects on our customers (who are the ones who pay our salaries) would have become intolerable and would have hit our corporate image hard. If we wait for perfect parking, canteen, IT services, trees etc., we'll never have a university. Those are small logistical matters in the context of the overall project, and while they should be tackled urgently, their absence should not be left get in the way of an upgrade of WIT.
ec18 wrote: » I'm sure the surronding residents of WIT feel the same as you as well....we are not talking about a private company that is scared of losing profits and disappointing customers. It's a government institution that is providing a serviceand as such is probably operating at a loss but either way the lecturers get paid. A simple question can everybody arguing that WIT needs to be upgraded now honestly say that the COURSES offered and taught if it gets upgraded will be vastly superior to the ones offered now?
As said by fricatus. You're missing my point completely here, so let me make it again: if you waited for everything to be perfect, you'd do nothing. Let me switch example: would you keep putting off your wedding, having children or buying a new car because you couldn't afford it all out of your savings? Of course not. You'd borrow and deal with the fallout afterwards. The principle applies just as much to upgrading educational institutions as it does to private enterprise or one's personal life.
ec18 wrote: » Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?....(I mean in practice not due to more research money)
Sully wrote: » Is it ready? I personally don't think so. Will things improve? More money probably means they can offer more services and add more buildings and courses. Will it fix the internal mess ups that are not just a "problem of the month" and "happen to every college, IT or University"? Will several years be the required time to fix out all these problems and prepare itself for the running with the big boys?
Sully wrote: » Its a tough one that has people divided...
Sully wrote: Sources in the college agreed only recently they feel its not ready for an upgrade yet.
stick-dan wrote: The college is not ready at the moment.As was said earlier in the thread the cork road campus would not be capable to cope with a large influx of would be university students if WIT was granted university status right now.
ec18 wrote: Again I ask the question would upgrading WIT significantly improve the quality of the teaching? why?
stick-dan wrote: Give it maybe 5 years, Centre the heartbeat of WIT in Carrignore maybe and then push for University Status.
Sully wrote: The problems everyone complains about are common in ITs
Sully wrote: Maybe we feel different since we bare the brunt of the stress of everyday college life in WIT - not cause we have tough courses, but cause the college is a shambles and is continuously running into problems.
|.Murderer.| wrote: » Many of the current teaching staff are employed on a part time (i.e short term contract) basis which is far from ideal if there's expected to be a consistent level of tuition offered to students. University status would open up more funding and allow the college to attract top class lecturers worthy of tenure rather than post-grads who see lecturing as a means to an end.
jmcc wrote: » No wonder the scum in Dublin don't want to give Waterford a university. Regards...jmcc
Nolanger wrote: » Carlow offers a degree in Computer Games Development - one of the few high profile industries that's under-developed in this country. And it has a more central location in the South East for the surrounding counties.
Amazotheamazing wrote: » This thread shows why the regions are so poorly run. No one has bothered to ask if Ireland, a small country of limited resources, needs another University, but rather, there's outrage that Waterford might slip behind Galway and Limerick. The argument has nothing to do with academic standards and everything to do with parochialism.
Amazotheamazing wrote: » If the Government were to decide tomorrow to give Carlow or Kilkenny a university, suddenly, the argument wouldn't be that the South-East needs a university, but rather that Waterford alone needs a university.
Amazotheamazing wrote: » We'd (as in Irish taxpayers) would be better off insisting that the existing universities are brought up to a higher standard, rather than demanding that the Southeast gets a university.
Amazotheamazing wrote: » That's not to knock Waterford, or WIT, but frankly, the question isn't whether Waterford needs a university, after all, it's hard to argue it would be a bad addition to any town/city, but rather does Ireland need another university?
Amazotheamazing wrote: » All the arguments made in favour of the university could be applied to Athlone or Letterkenny. The fact is, all the regional cities, Cork, Galway and Limerick, as well as Waterford suffer a brain drain towards Dublin.
merlante wrote: » The reason nobody has bothered to ask is because the debate has been centred around whether the city/region needs a university. The reason for this, is that you are on a Waterford city board! If this debate were happening on an all-Ireland Education board, it would be an entirely different debate. Whenever I hear someone from Dublin come out with words such as the 'regions' or 'parochialism' I know I am in for the usual argument about such and such a place not thinking of the greater good, but only their own interests. What you fail to understand is that at every level people are concerned with 'parochial' interests. One parish competes with its neighbour, Waterford competes with Galway, Dublin competes with other capitals, Ireland competes with other countries. Within each context people become very parochial, and to an extent, rightly so. I don't hear any arguments suggesting that extremely specialist care units in Dublin should be centralised to London so that they might be provided more efficiently. When the IFSC was set up, I doubt anyone asked, "does the British isles *need* another financial services centre?" That would be ridiculous because as a country we have our own legitimate, 'parochial' ambition, and one of the things we demand in particular is equality of service provision with other countries, or regions of countries. What Waterford and the south east seeks is parity of education provision to the other regions. This is a legitimate ambition of the region. If there is a university in every other populous region and regional capital in Ireland, and Waterford and the south east is the single, obvious exception to what we could loosely call a national strategy, then there would want to be a damn good reason not to establish a university in the south east. I have heard a lot of arguments that establishing another university in the south east would be (somehow) one too many universities. As if anyone has done any analysis of how many is 'enough', or what the magic number is. The people who are saying this, funnily enough, are vested interests from the university establishment in the other cities who are well aware of what the increased competition would mean for their institution. I have also heard vague talk about needing to centralise our research spend further (world class universities argument), and therefore one more university would somehow be a disaster. The clear solution here would be to establish a university in the south east, and begin to merge universities over time to achieve economies of scale and critical mass without affecting the geographical distribution of university education and research investment. This is total garbage. Universities for populations of a half million people is consistent with what we've been doing in Ireland, and also in the smaller scandinavian countries, which have similar populations, low population densities and somewhat similar urban structures. There are 460,000 people in the south east, and that figure is growing at almost 10% every 5 years. The West and Midwest, which have universities, are smaller regions. We're Irish tax payers as well. Why does this fact so often escape people making these sort of arguments? 12% of the country live in the south east. Waterford is a gateway in the 'national' spatial strategy. If the region receives parity of educational investment it will be consolidated as a driver of economic growth and will help relieve the pressure on Dublin. If there needs to be rationalisation in the university sector, and despite how often this is said there has been no real analysis backing this up, rationalisation is university administration (as in merging universities and reducing administration) would be far more beneficial than geographical rationalisation, i.e. chop off the south east and let it die. You may not be aware that the lack of a university in the south east has numerous negative consequences for the country as a whole, e.g. more people in Waterford city on social welfare than in Galway city, despite Galway being 40% larger; a significantly lower percentage of degree holders in the south east, which is 12% of the national population, and so on. To a certain extent, the government will need to hand feed the south east as a going concern if it cannot stand on its own two feet and actually contribute to the national economy. A university is essential if the south east is to prosper. The south east is 'Ireland' too. Essentially what we could get into here is a centralisation versus decentralisation debate, where I argue for decentralisation because it offers consistent and fair coverage of university education across the country, and you argue centralisation on the basis that more money spread between fewer institutions helps build critical mass and helps Irish universities compete nationally. It's largely, though not entirely, an argument of social equity versus economics. (Although there are economic benefits to the country of establishing a university in the south east, such as the reduced costs to the state (grants) and to the family of displacing students from the south east to other regions for 4 years.) This argument has not been won, it hasn't even really been argued. The report by independent, UK expert Dr. Port on the application is due out soon. Let's see what he says. Also, as I said earlier, we need administrative rationalisation not geographic rationalisation. Athlone and Letterkenny are small towns situated in sparsely populated regions, whose recent growth is probably already putting severe pressure on infrastructure and whose significance in the national spatial strategy are not so immediate. Realistically, there will only ever be one more genuine candidate for a new university in Ireland. The other ITs would all try to follow suit, of course, but there is only one IT with the demographic justification for an upgrade. Besides, if you wanted to be brutal, the correct decision would be to upgrade and invest in the WIT at the expense of NUI Maynooth, which is a smaller institution and of less strategic importance in a national context.
Amazotheamazing wrote: » A nice, detailed, informative reply that totally misses the point, does Ireland actually need another university? To me, all you've pointed out is that, shock horror, it would be handy for Waterford to have one. Great, but does Ireland (the large green thing that Waterford is part of) actually need one?
merlante wrote: » I didn't miss the point at all, I just answered the question in terms you aren't bothered considering. In the context of the south east needing a university, I might equally ask you 'what is so disastrous about 8 universities rather than 7?' (When with 7 universities a large swathe of the country has limited access to university education and suffers with respect to other regions on any socio-economic scale you care to mention.) It's very convenient for us to miss each other's point when we disagree.
