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The Mega Management Company thread

capistrano

A lot of us now own appartments in Ireland and we pay annual service charges. However, as these increase every year it is hard to know whether or not we are getting value for money because there is no transparent list of the charges for the various appartment complexes.

I think it would be a good idea for people to say what they are paying in their complex and then we can build up a list so that people can see if they are getting good value or not.

I'll start off with my own case.

Complex: Tolka Vale, Finglas Road, D11
Appartment: 2 bed
Annual Service Charge: €1490 plus insurance of approx €670; total €2160

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The_Conductor

markpb wrote:

Do you have a link about this? I'd like to read more...

There are a number of documents of relevance that you might like to read including:

“Successful Apartment Living – A Role for Local Authorities in Private Residential Management Companies", published by Dublin City Council available to download here.

2 National Consumer Agency publications entitled “Property Management Companies and You” and a related Report entitled “Management Fees and Service Charges Levied on Owners of Property in Multi-Unit Dwellings” by DKM Consultants Ltd. in association with Kevin O’Higgins Solicitors.

These are available to download here.

The Law Reform Commission (http://www.lawreform.ie/) also have also published a Consultation Paper on Apartment Complexes and Multi-Unit Developments. Available to download here.

The ODCE recently completed a consultation process on the Draft Guidance on Management Company governance- Maria Leavy in the ODCE's Compliance Unit has hard copies of this (her number is (01) 8585833). (Note: the actual results of the consultation are not available as yet- expected around October).

S.

markpb

Cheers for that. The ones I've read so far have been very interesting. Can you check the first and fourth links?

The_Conductor

markpb wrote:

Cheers for that. The ones I've read so far have been very interesting. Can you check the first and fourth links?

Hi- sorry, will try to clean up the links later. Here is a brief summary of the Draft Guidance document from the ODCE:

Summary of Draft ODCE Guidance on Apartment Owners’ Management Companies
In line with its general compliance remit, the ODCE has prepared in draft form a Corporate Governance Handbook in order to support directors and members in the effective running of their management company’s affairs and in protecting the very valuable assets which comprise most apartment developments. (Chapter 1).
The Draft Guidance explains the separate roles of the management company (i.e., as the owner of a development’s common areas and as the party responsible for its upkeep) and the managing agent (who is contracted by the management company to provide the required building maintenance, insurance, security and other services). Reference is made to the three phases of a management company, namely the ‘developer only’, the ‘developer and members’ and the ‘members only’ phases. The Draft Guidance indicates that the framework of law governing management companies combines elements of public law (i.e., statute) and private law (i.e., the property leases and the company’s internal governance rules). (Chapters 2 to 5).
The Draft Guidance notes that an apartment owner becomes a member of the property’s management company on purchase of the apartment. It explains the privileges of membership, including the right to participate in the company’s decision-making at its annual general meeting or otherwise. It discusses the duties and responsibilities of the directors and helpfully identifies the tasks to which they should be giving regular attention (e.g., maintaining safe custody of the property’s title deeds and the company’s other assets, supervising the managing agent’s performance of its contractual obligations, securing the payment of service charges, considering the future refurbishment needs of the property, etc.). The distinct roles of the company secretary and auditors are also explained. (Chapters 6 to 11).
The Draft Guidance outlines the nature and purpose of the records to be kept of company activity and their accessibility to company stakeholders. It suggests some options for the management of the company’s bank account(s) and discusses the preparation of the company’s audited annual accounts and the filing of the annual return in the Companies Registration Office. (Chapters 12 to 15).
The Draft Guidance explains the critical importance of adequate service charges not only to meet the ongoing needs of the apartment development but also to create a reserve fund for the future replacement of items of major expense (e.g., lifts). The contractual relationship between the management company and its managing agent is also discussed and the desirability of having a clear written contract and ideally one based on standard terms of engagement. The advantages of the company having a separate legal adviser or solicitor are also outlined. (Chapters 16 to 18).
The Draft Guidance indicates how the company’s articles of association (or internal governance rules) can be changed, and it proposes a number of issues for particular consideration by management companies. It identifies a number of other legal obligations to which management companies must have regard, and it explains the consequences of any failure of the company for the apartment owners. Finally, the Draft Guidance indicates that every effort should be made by apartment owners to resolve their own difficulties while highlighting the types of issue which might, as a last resort, be referred for ODCE attention. (Chapters 19 to 22).

Hmm_Messiah

I got notice of the manaegement co agm (its this week)

some questions?

should I go ? ( I mean do people go, can things be changed etc )

the 2 directors apparently have given the management over to a new agency - can the agm reverse that (aren't all owners member of the mangement co ?)

I've not paid for fees in two yrs as they will not detail them _ the cut my front grass every month in summer thats it - no refuse, no mainternce etc b

are there implications of not paying the fees if I sell? - I guess I just need to clear the arrears ?

are there implications re an insurance claim if fees un paid ( kinda asked in another thread but don't want to confuse things

from, doing company law an age back arent all companys obliged to hold an agm each yr, or within 14 months or something - i am 3 yrs here and its first correspondence I've gotten .

the apartment is in kilkenny its not an apartment b lock, its a two storey on end of house block (probably useless info)

THANKS

BendiBus

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

I got notice of the manaegement co agm (its this week)

some questions?

should I go ? ( I mean do people go, can things be changed etc )

Yes

the 2 directors apparently have given the management over to a new agency - can the agm reverse that (aren't all owners member of the mangement co ?)

Yes - but only if you're there to vote in enough numbers

I've not paid for fees in two yrs as they will not detail them _ the cut my front grass every month in summer thats it - no refuse, no mainternce etc b

The other owners are paying for whatever you're getting, however little. Do you think that's right? Also, the management company is in a position to charge interest on late payments

are there implications of not paying the fees if I sell? - I guess I just need to clear the arrears ?

You won't be able to sell if your fees (including interest) are not up to date

are there implications re an insurance claim if fees un paid ( kinda asked in another thread but don't want to confuse things

Once the block insurance is up to date, probably not. But once again, the other owners are basically paying your insurance for you at the moment

from, doing company law an age back arent all companys obliged to hold an agm each yr, or within 14 months or something - i am 3 yrs here and its first correspondence I've gotten .

I think there must be an agm every year. Unfortunately, directors of management companies in new developments aren't always fully aware of their responsibilities. Is the developer still represented on your board?

the apartment is in kilkenny its not an apartment b lock, its a two storey on end of house block (probably useless info)

THANKS

You really need to pay your fees. You can demand something in return only if you're up to date and if you attend the agm. The apartments I live in got into a situation where a few people stopped paying fees due to a dispute with the agent. The resulting shortage of funds resulted in even less maintenance work being done and a vicious circle ensued.

We were lucky in that we got an excellent new agent who got things sorted out without recourse to legal action against the non-payers.

Hmm_Messiah

thanks for the answer

the developer is one of the two directors of the management company.

Like you mentioned in your post I am , as I understand it, one of a number who have not paid fees over dissatisfaction, generally every one who is an owner occupier - again as i understand it ( its kind of vague ) those who bought to rent out just pay the fees (and include it in the rent of course)

I understand how it might seem I am being unfair to other owners, but at the moment its due entirely to zero communication with the management agency. finally having an agm might be some step towards sorting that.

but, in my defence : one week from my exams , power shorting out, water running down the shower cord, a growing water patch on the ceiling, and impossible to get make contact with the management co, I was less concerned about the other owners

the leak was stopped 9 days after reported. I was asked was I sure it was not "my" leak - I am no expert but find it strange some one thinking my plumbing would run ...upwards :rolleyes:

I got the fees invoice for June 06 in May...2007

markpb

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

should I go ? ( I mean do people go, can things be changed etc )
[...]
the 2 directors apparently have given the management over to a new agency - can the agm reverse that (aren't all owners member of the mangement co ?)
[...]
from, doing company law an age back arent all companys obliged to hold an agm each yr, or within 14 months or something - i am 3 yrs here and its first correspondence I've gotten .

Management companies are obliged to hold an AGM at least once a year but in most new estates the developers hold the directors positions and won't hold elections for a few years. All the owners can (and should) go to the AGM but shouldn't expect to have any say in the running of the company because the developers don't want to have to listen to annoying people who've already handed over their money.

You should definitely go and see if the developers will resign (or have any plans to do so soon) and have owners (preferably owner-occupiers) take over so you can ditch the managing agent and run the estate properly or at least know why problems exist.

Mailman

If you haven't paid your fees then you will have no voting rights; this should be outlined as one of the covenants of your leasehold agreement.

Paulw

Ìf you haven't paid your management fees, then the management company does have the right to remove you from the block insurance. To do this, they must first notify your bank (which may cause you serious problems with your mortgage).

You will (and should) also be charged interest on any late payments.

Check the articles of association for your management company. In some it says that the developers will only stand down as directors after they have handed over all units and the common areas. However, if this is not stated, then you can call an EGM and remove them from office, and elect new directors.

Contact the CRO for more info on your management company documents.

Dakeyras

smc, interesting

princess27

Dakeyras wrote: »

smc, interesting

Would just like to keep you informed re managment companies, a company called XXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX are the most unprofessional and gangster type managment company there is out there. They don't even have offices yet charge admin charges etc!! Very doggy management company if you ask me...

PaddyS

Guys, MDProperty management are a good company. They have an office in baggot street but I dont have the number any more. I think the guys name Mark and he knows what he is doing.

Worth a call anyway. Best of luck

bmm wrote: »

I forgot to ask does anyone have the names of good property managers in Dublin? I'm talking about a company that actually give a ****. A company that after ringing them 5 times they actually do something. I wouldn't mind paying €1500 if it was used constructively and the complex was well managed.

It's quiet unbelieveable how some property managers neglect their properties. Most of them would have you believe that gurriers and drug addicts roam the complexes day and night to save them having to do anything. KPM have to be the worst. They never never return phone calls, they see every apartment owner as a pest. I contacted them on 8 occasions over a 4 week period as carpet was falling off the stairs, they did nothing so I just gave up. Someone will fall down the stairs and put a big claim in that will hike up our fees again. Do you think KPM care? They couldn't give a ****...

Has anybody successfully switched property managers whilst the developer still ruled the common areas? If so how did you manage it? Did you have to get the support of the directors/developers before anything could be done?

dade

dont know if its listed here already

place: Holywell in Kinsealy/Swords
Unit: 2 bed apartment
€725 for everything
Agents: O Farrell Property Management.

Stephen P

My management company are very lazy and whenever I call them about something they fob me off. It's starting to really get on my nerves. A few things need repairing in the common area's and they're digging their heels in due to some occupiers owing them management fee's from earlier this year. I was thinking about sending the director of the company a letter but not sure if this would have any effect. I offered to join the committee and currently I'm the only person on it (I wonder why :rolleyes:). Even with me being a "committee member" they don't listen.

What's the best way to approach this? Letter or just ignore it and hope they get their act together?

Paulw

Ignoring and hoping never work.

Write, email and phone the directors and hassle them about it.

You really need to get a few people together to chase issues and put pressure on the management company directors and the management agent.

connundrum

If the budget for 12 months is €100,000, And they are only able to collect €60,000 in service charges from owners during the year, that means that they only have €60,000 to spend.

They would be going down a rocky road if they employed contractors to do work in your development knowing full well that they may not get paid for a couple of months at a time.

The people to get annoyed with are your neighbouring owners who haven't paid their service charges. They are essentially the ones who are holding up the progress.

What you should do is ask what stage your managing agent is at with regards to collecting outstanding fees i.e. have people been sent to debt collection etc.

Stephen P

connundrum wrote: »

If the budget for 12 months is €100,000, And they are only able to collect €60,000 in service charges from owners during the year, that means that they only have €60,000 to spend.

They would be going down a rocky road if they employed contractors to do work in your development knowing full well that they may not get paid for a couple of months at a time.

The people to get annoyed with are your neighbouring owners who haven't paid their service charges. They are essentially the ones who are holding up the progress.

What you should do is ask what stage your managing agent is at with regards to collecting outstanding fees i.e. have people been sent to debt collection etc.

I do know from the minutes of the AGM in Sept. that there are a number of apartment owners who still owe the fee's and thats why not much work is being done. I know for a fact that the residents in my block had to pay the fee up front before signing so why wouldn't the management co. carry out repairs just in my block? Also another question kinda off topic, does the management company be in charge of the developement forever or is it just for a certain number of years? Can it ever be handed over to the local authority?

How Strange

stephen p Quote:...I do know from the minutes of the AGM in Sept. that there are a number of apartment owners who still owe the fee's and thats why not much work is being done. I know for a fact that the residents in my block had to pay the fee up front before signing so why wouldn't the management co. carry out repairs just in my block?

Because it doesn't work like that. The money is spent across the board. By your reckoning the poor unfortunates who did pay on time but live beside someone who didn't shouldn't receive any services. It's one big pot and they have to spend as and where is needed. Then the money runs out (due to the selfish, freeloading f*ckers who don't care about the development or their neighbours) and the work stops. I've been a managing agent (no longer thankfully) and I've had to explain this to people many times. Get the managing agents to get tough on unpaid debts. Go legal on it. It's the only way unfortunately.

Also another question kinda off topic, does the management company be in charge of the developement forever or is it just for a certain number of years? Can it ever be handed over to the local authority?

Apartments will never be handed over to the local authority because of internal common areas, external areas such as the roof, external walls on blocks. Also, you want to see what an apartment block managed by the local authority looks like - go to Ballymun. Anywhere that local authority flats are kept nicely is down to a few proud homeowners who do it themselves.

As an off topic comment - why would you spend an extortionate amount of money on property, probably one of the biggest things you wil ever spend your money on, and not look into all the legal implications of that purchase? If you bought a car you would have compared it, read up on it and made a decision based on sound knowledge. Somehow with apts, people have become so blase about it. It's always amazed me!

Stephen P

How Strange wrote: »

As an off topic comment - why would you spend an extortionate amount of money on property, probably one of the biggest things you wil ever spend your money on, and not look into all the legal implications of that purchase? If you bought a car you would have compared it, read up on it and made a decision based on sound knowledge. Somehow with apts, people have become so blase about it. It's always amazed me!

I bought the apt. through the affordable housing scheme so I didn't have any say in where I got, I could have turned it down but god knows how long more I'd be waiting and its a nice development and didnt want to pass it up. I've heard before that management companies can be tricky to deal with. They're not too bad. Maybe I'm just blowing things out of proportion. I can understand them not doing repairs because of non-payment. Its the landlords of the apts. that haven't paid, they don't live there so they don't give a rats arse.

/rant over

faceman

OP, write the management a letter and advise them that if they do not remedy the repairs within 21 days that you will no longer be paying your management fee and will refer the matter to your solicitor

If other owners have not paid their fees, then thats not your fault and nor should you be penalised for it.

calsatron

Your solicitor will advise you not to stop paying your management fee whatever happens as this will significantly weaken any legal action you may wish to take.

The only legal issue is the one between the managing agents and the defaulting owners. Your best course of action is to gather together other paying owners and pressure the agent into going legal with the defaulters.

The other option is to get the names of the defaulters from the agent, if you can, and get a few flyers done up with something along the lines of:

"Repairs to common areas are no longer being carried out because these people havn't paid their service charge.............."

The old name and shame.

How Strange

OP, you are dealing with the managing agent. They been employed by the management company to conduct the day to day business of the company i.e. carry out repairs, get lifts serviced, refuse collected.

Whatever you do DON'T stop paying your service charges. I can see why owners would feel like that is the best thing to do but it only makes the situation worse. You should take the initiative in this situation and as a member of the residents committee start working with them.

If control the Management Company hasn't been handed over to the owners yet most likely the directors of the MC are the developers and they have no interest in things like bad debt. Be very assertive and don't take no for an answer, tell them you are getting involved whether they like it or not and call a residents meeting and ask the MA to attend.

Talk to the managing agent and ask them about their policy for collecting bad debts. If they don't have one tell them to get their finger out and start. They should have a solicitor who specialises in bad debt and they go through the legal process until it ends up in court. It can and has been done very successfully.

Also, ask the MA at the next AGM to read out the apt no's that are unpaid. You can't give out names under data protection but you can read out the no's. Also have a system whereby owners who haven't paid aren't allowed speak at the AGM. No payment no voice and no opinion.

Stephen P

How Strange wrote: »

....
If control the Management Company hasn't been handed over to the owners yet most likely the directors of the MC are the developers and they have no interest in things like bad debt. Be very assertive and don't take no for an answer, tell them you are getting involved whether they like it or not and call a residents meeting and ask the MA to attend.

Could you explain what you mean by "control of the Management Company hasn't been handed over to the owners"? In another post when I asked is the developement managed by the management co. always, I got it mixed up and meant to ask what does that statement mean, I've seen it mentioned on another thread and was wondering what it meant.

MrVostro

You need to remove the agents.

Look up how to do this. Its not straight forward but can be done.

All too often the agents hire their own mates as contractors and pay over the odds splitting the profits. When we looked into the annual records of an apartment i owned with my ex, years ago. it turned out the a contractor got €31K per year to maintain green areas. There were 2 roundabouts which had grass on them, nothing else.

When we brought this up at the AGM we got all sorts of excuses. Then we asked to have an itemised bill from the contractors. The following year it was €4k for maintenance of green areas. Still too much.

Later we found that this happens in a lot of places.

Eventually we removed them and got someone else in, but made sure they knew what we expected first.

How Strange

OP, by control of the management company I mean that the current directors of the MC tender their resignation at an AGM and then invite owners to nominate themselves as directors. These nominations have to be seconded by other owners.

Then the MC is controlled by the owners so they have the ultimate say in setting budgets, dealing with the MA etc. PM me if you want more info, it is too long for this post.

MrVostro... You need to remove the agents.Look up how to do this. Its not straight forward but can be done. Eventually we removed them and got someone else in, but made sure they knew what we expected first.

IMO, not all managing agents are bad, they usually take on far too many properties so they are too busy to give proper attention to individual properties. Most MA's are decent, reputable companies but it only takes one or two being exposed in the press to give a negative impression of the sector in general.

I still say you should push the MA into debt collection. Try and get a few more owners interested in joining the committee and say that until the MC is in the owners control that you will be very active in the running of the development. The MA should comply because if not you can sack them the day control of MC is handed over to you.

As it stands, if the directors of the MC are developers then it is very difficult to get rid of the MA because it is the directors who have to sack them. And you would need more concrete reasons than you think they are abit lazy. They would have to be negligent or seriously at fault in some way or other i.e. awarding contracts at extortionate rates therefore squandering money.

Stephen P

MrVostro wrote: »

You need to remove the agents.

Look up how to do this. Its not straight forward but can be done.

All too often the agents hire their own mates as contractors and pay over the odds splitting the profits. When we looked into the annual records of an apartment i owned with my ex, years ago. it turned out the a contractor got €31K per year to maintain green areas. There were 2 roundabouts which had grass on them, nothing else.

When we brought this up at the AGM we got all sorts of excuses. Then we asked to have an itemised bill from the contractors. The following year it was €4k for maintenance of green areas. Still too much.

Later we found that this happens in a lot of places.

Eventually we removed them and got someone else in, but made sure they knew what we expected first.

How can you get rid of them? Surely the developers wouldn't allow you to get rid of them?

calsatron

Exactly, so you'll have to get rid of the developers as Directors of the Managment Company first.

This can be done by a simple majority vote at the next AGM. They are obliged to call an AGM every year and advise all voting sharholders in advance.

If you want to move the process forward faster than that you'll need to call an extraordinary AGM which you can do with the support of at least 10% of the voting shareholders.

Developers, being a slippery bunch, are also prone to appointing themselves "Directors for Life" via the Articles of Association and other intresting tactics.

Basically if you want to persue the removal of the managing agenst you'll need to get rid of the developers on the board of the management company. This could be a long and complicated process and you may need specialist financial and legal advice to persue it.

Moonbeam

The management company will hand the estate over to the residents after the last house is sold.Until them you are stuck with them.

Ours are useless too:(

faceman

calsatron wrote: »

Your solicitor will advise you not to stop paying your management fee whatever happens as this will significantly weaken any legal action you may wish to take.

not necessarily. But it could depend on the judge in court on the day. However if the plantiff can prove the steps he took with the company and they are in breach of contract, it shouldnt be that big of a deal.

gazzer

I live in an estate that is a mixture of private, social and affordable houses and apartments. There is a management company in place (the council employees as directors). They have been a joke since day one. I paid my fees until the council decided to open an access to a neighbouring estate. Since that has opened the amount of damage and rubbish around the area is crazy. I stopped paying my fees as I got sick of the amount of damage been caused by teenagers from the neighbouring estate and the extreme slowless of the management company to deal with it. The last straw came when I rang them 10 times over a one month period and they never returned any of the calls.