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WIT Christmas Day

Sully

So as most of you probably know (or spotted) it was the WIT Christmas Day. An event supported by the college where all the students start there day long drinking session in the Dome student bar at midday and work there way into pubs and clubs in town until closing. An event, which seems to always end in tragedy or serious accidents. Where Ambulance and Gardai are on high alert, probably more then the usual Wednesday student night or weekend nights. As usual, people strolling out onto the street with no sense of danger - ie ignoring cars heading right for them.

Anywho.. was in town with ec18 and two others (non-boardsies!) tonight coming from the Forum (Rory Gallagher tribute band thing). Drove down the usual route past the clubs to see how busy it was. Large crowds of people surrounding the clubs, large ques to enter. Crowds just strolling around, some getting food while some just staring into space. Bit more then your usual Wednesday night!

Just passing Railway Square to spot a group of Gardai giving medical assistance to someone who was clearly passed out. Drink? Probably a factor. Fight? Looked very much like it, since there were a fair few people fighting each other, and one lad had a bloody head, around the Gardai who seemed little interested in arresting these people. Warnings were issued, but the lads didn't care. They continued punching each other. One went that bit to far - the biggest girl out of the group there decided to square up the guard, and was quickly bundled into the back of the van.

The lad on the ground - breathing heavily - was now having seizures, with no sign of an ambulance. Concerned, we decided to update the ambulance. Assuming the Gardai called. Called anyway, to find the girl on the phone to tell me that no ambulance was called. I gave her the details and she said she would send one. For those of you in the medical know-how, you probably know that gardai have only basic first aid. This was shown when they decided to kneel on top of the lad who was having the fit. Correct me if im wrong, but the girl in the car is a first responder and claimed that was incorrect. Getting more concerned, we checked the status on the ambulance. She said they have only one ambulance serving the whole of Waterford (out of two. So, on the busiest night, one ambulance was grounded!) and its "just around the corner".

Time passed, and the guards picked up the lad on the ground and placed him into the van. Two of the people in the car with me (non-boardsies) headed out to tell the guards an ambulance was on its way. They claimed they called the ambulance five times and it still isn't here, so there bringing him to hospital themselves. And so they did, along with the female arrested for trying to fight the guard. Meanwhile, the other lad with a head wound was told to go away or be arrested. Odd, but sure I suppose he was a bit on the drunk side. Oh and we spotted the ambulance as we drove back towards WIT from Railway Square. They were in the Maxol garage, having a break by the looks! Meanwhile.. the guards had to escort a lad to hospital because they couldn't get an ambulance.

So, that's one event that happened tonight. I'm sure we will hear more in next weeks News & Star, or if its anything serious in tomorrow's news. A college supported drinking event, and another incident. Suppose though, this incident would be normal on such nights? I don't go out to the clubs, and if im in town we leave when Jeffs closes.

Was surprised at the amount of **** the cops put up with. Being abused and ignored. Only one arrested at that incident, even though lads were throwing punches at each other! Always knew Waterford had only two Ambulances, but was surprised to see one down and the other in Maxol. Iv always knew the WIT Christmas Day was bad, but this takes the biscuit. Why are the college supporting such an event? Its not even a charity fundraiser anymore!

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AdMMM

Could have picked up a puncture. Or had to run in and buy some plasters!

Sully

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

The Order of Malta is independently run though, they fund themselves too

If you wanted them you could have called their number

This hard working organisation shouldnt be blamed for problems with our national health service

The community funds the Order of Malta. There not really allowed attend emergency calls, Tramore is the only one in Ireland that does so (excluding events). At least, thats what I am lead to believe. I doubt the number is 24hrs.

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Could have picked up a puncture. Or had to run in and buy some plasters!

Maxol is there stop for breaks as its a 24hour shop which cooks food all day/night. The car was not at a pump and was parked facing the roadway ready to run. Nobody was in the ambulance or anywhere near it - they were more then likely in the shop. And no, it wasnt a call out there either

stick-dan

Listen the underlying matter here is that there was a young lad having a seizure on the side of the street with no-one properly equipped or trained enough to aide him and i just think that it is a total shame that the ambulance didn't respond seeing as they were only in maxol. They were definitely not there on official business because we passed by slowly on the way back to my house.I't's just not right and there are no excuses for them idle crew that were there in the petrol station.

Statso

Your all a load of dry sh*tes by the sound of things. Go out and have fun lads, your only young once. The emergencies your talking about happen every night of the week no matter if its a traditonally big drinking day or not. Should we all just stay in most of the night and then permit ourselves to a couple of drinks downtown before catching an early night?

shapez

Couple of facts to point out here:

1. Christmas Day is NOT supported or orchestrated by the WIT. (It is a traditional student run event.)
2. There were NO advertisements whatsoever in the WIT regarding Christmas Day.
3. There were advertisements regarding bands/groups playing in various venues around Waterford.
4. The Dome bar is a separate entity from the WIT itself. It is run by Campus Services.
5. The WIT DOES not profit from the Dome Bar on Christmas Day or any other day.
6. The WIT have responded in the past to a Christmas Day that got out of hand a few years ago, whereby WIT staff attendants had to act as bouncers/doormen to stop drunken students coming into the college with alcohol in their hand.
The response was... The Dome Bar was close for Rag Week!!

And another thing, the vast majority of students are adults (18+). They have a choice. Just like you and I. And a choice just like the people at the party in Ballybeg Sq. last weekend.

For those of us here that did go to college, yes we had a good time too. In my opinion better than those in college today. We let our hair down, we had the parties, the drink and the waking up the next morning walking into class reaking of alcohol. Happy Days.
Let them enjoy themselves. Problem is they don't when to stop. Neither did (and in some cases, do) we.

I agree, it's is completely unfair on emergency services to be either short staffed and be landed with something as extreme on Wednesday night. However, it is their job and you have to take the bad with the good.

Finally, somebody please point me in the direction of a town or city in this country that is completely free of alcohol related events!!

Thanks for reading & have a great weekend!!

stick-dan

Statso wrote: »

Your all a load of dry sh*tes by the sound of things. Go out and have fun lads, your only young once. The emergencies your talking about happen every night of the week no matter if its a traditonally big drinking day or not. Should we all just stay in most of the night and then permit ourselves to a couple of drinks downtown before catching an early night?

Yes your dead right that emergencies just like this do happen almost every night of the week but it is no unknown fact that christmas day is far more than a normal wednesday night. The actual volume of people that head out *for a few* on christmas day is a hell of alot more than on a normal wednesday night and it is absolutely stupid to suggest otherwise. No one says stop drinking and noone is even going to the point of just having a few but to be fair there is a limit.

shapez wrote: »

And another thing, the vast majority of students are adults (18+). They have a choice. Just like you and I. And a choice just like the people at the party in Ballybeg Sq. last weekend.

This is the point shapez said that most of the students are 18+ and fair enough that they are well at least the majority fortunate enough to be but like there is a limit. If these students are so called ADULTS then surely they have a braincell in their heads that allows them to make a choice that yes i'll have a right day on christmas day and have a right laugh and all that but surely having a right laugh isn't logically equivalent to drinking yourself into a semiconscious state that you quite literally co-ordinate your hand to scratch your a**e.

shapez

I agree. Some just don't know their limit.

And I think girls are most vulnerable, I was driving home after 9 on Wednesday night and I saw a girl (on her own!!) with her bag, denim skirt and flashing Santa hat walking down by T&C motors, staggering from side to side on the footpath!!! I'll let you draw your own conclusions to what could have happened to her.

Aquos76

stick-dan wrote: »

I was one of the onlookers in the car with sully last night(one of the non boarders he mentioned except i joined a few weeks ago) when we came across the lad having a seizure. We did indeed ring an ambulance and it was a complete and utter joke that the gardai had not called for an ambulance. As sully said we did observe the gardai forcefully applying pressure to the young man that was seizuring on the ground...

First off, welcome along to boards, I hope you become a regular contributor. I was not going to get involved with this thread, due to the fact that Sully and I exchanged a difference of opinion in another thread, however I have a few things I was to say in defence of the guards that attended that incident. I can confirm that the ambulance was indeed called at least 5 times and ambulance control told the Gardai that there was only one ambulance on duty tonight and that they were attending a call elsewhere and that it would be at least 15 to 20 minutes before they could get to the scene. The Garda down at Revolution was in constant contact with the Barracks requesting them to keep in touch with Ambulance control to get an update. Each time they were told its on the way. This went on for the best part of 25 to 30 mins.

stick-dan wrote: »

What was even more appalling was the fact that when we did indeed call an ambulance we were told it was right around the corner dealing with another incident which seemed acceptable with the night that was in it and all and since the second ambulance was currently down. So myself and another non boarder then decided to go over and inform the gardai who were now attempting to lift the man into the gardai van that we had indeed called an ambulance and it was on its way but the gardai proceeded to bring him to hospital which with the circumstances that followed a few minutes later seemed to be the better idea. So after the gardai had left the scene sully proceeded to bring me home and when we were on the way there we came across the ambulance crew "Parked" in the maxol station even though they were supposed to be attending to another incident.

The reason they probably continued with bringing him themselves even after you advising them the Ambulance was on its was was more than likely due to the fact that they had been hearing this for over half an hour at that stage and the lads condition was getting worse.

The fact that only 2 Ambulance serve Waterford city at night is a total disgrace. In the early part of this incident last night, it was even suggested that the Order of Malta ambulance in Tramore be brought in to this lad, for whatever reason this did not happen.

Did anyone hear how the lad is since the incident?

ec18

shapez wrote: »

Couple of facts to point out here:

1. Christmas Day is NOT supported or orchestrated by the WIT. (It is a traditional student run event.)
2. There were NO advertisements whatsoever in the WIT regarding Christmas Day.
3. There were advertisements regarding bands/groups playing in various venues around Waterford.
4. The Dome bar is a separate entity from the WIT itself. It is run by Campus Services.
5. The WIT DOES not profit from the Dome Bar on Christmas Day or any other day.
6. The WIT have responded in the past to a Christmas Day that got out of hand a few years ago, whereby WIT staff attendants had to act as bouncers/doormen to stop drunken students coming into the college with alcohol in their hand.
The response was... The Dome Bar was close for Rag Week!!

And another thing, the vast majority of students are adults (18+). They have a choice. Just like you and I. And a choice just like the people at the party in Ballybeg Sq. last weekend.

For those of us here that did go to college, yes we had a good time too. In my opinion better than those in college today. We let our hair down, we had the parties, the drink and the waking up the next morning walking into class reaking of alcohol. Happy Days.
Let them enjoy themselves. Problem is they don't when to stop. Neither did (and in some cases, do) we.

I agree, it's is completely unfair on emergency services to be either short staffed and be landed with something as extreme on Wednesday night. However, it is their job and you have to take the bad with the good.

Finally, somebody please point me in the direction of a town or city in this country that is completely free of alcohol related events!!

Thanks for reading & have a great weekend!!

Sorry but I like a drink and laugh as much as the next guy, and have no problem "letting my hair down". But Xmas day is a bit extreme to compare to a normal night out. Everybodys been constantly drinking for 12-14 hours. Most of the people down around the masons ruby's area were having trouble standing and had no clue where they were. One lady shouted at us to stop driving on the footpath. When she was falling around in the middle of the road.

And the girl in the car who's in college in Dublin even said that nothing like that happens in their nights out in Dublin. and theres over 300 in her class. so I think you can kinda guess that this is a just a tad more hectic then your usual Wednesday night. And whats wrong with an early night? sometimes you just need some sleep:p

stick-dan

Aquos76 wrote: »

The reason they probably continued with bringing him themselves even after you advising them the Ambulance was on its was was more than likely due to the fact that they had been hearing this for over half an hour at that stage and the lads condition was getting worse.

The fact that only 2 Ambulance serve Waterford city at night is a total disgrace. In the early part of this incident last night, it was even suggested that the Order of Malta ambulance in Tramore be brought in to this lad, for whatever reason this did not happen.

Did anyone hear how the lad is since the incident?

First off i suppose thanks for the welcome to boards and i will be posting often if stupid incidents like this do continue to occur.But thank you btw Aquos76..:)

anyway back to the point the real problem wasn't that the gardai loaded him into the van because as you quiet rightly pointed out they probably realised that the guys condition was getting worse and in fairness had to act. What i find wrong is that we clearly observed the ambulance in maxol just parked there and also that the gardai had only basic first aid and never even utilised it properly.The situation i find is disturbing.

With regard to the condition of the chap in question i haven't heard anything about it in the college or anything but my thoughts are with him anyways...i dont know if it was his excessive drinking that caused the problem or maybe a health disorder of some sort so it would be wrong to draw assumptions on that point but we all wish him well...

But really what is it going to take for people's eyes to be opened to the ambomination of christmas day???because no-one seemed to notice the chap in a seizure on the ground and there was definitely a good hundred of so people passing when this was happening...

Cabaal

Its not just Christmas Day is muppets drinking more then there able for, it happens every weekend and frankly I'm disappointed drink didn't go up in the budget as alcohol causes more social problems in Ireland then smoking ever has or will.

stick-dan

ya have a point there all right but this thing is veering off topic a bit...

Sully

I was going to reply.. but ec18 and stick-dan covered it damn well. I couldnt agree more.

It really isnt a matter of "it happens everyweekend / wednesday". It doesnt. People dont start of at midday in the dome and get wasted there to head down town to get even more wasted in all the other clubs etc.

Iv seen a young girl up at the very back of the town away from any life, walking around clearly not knowing where she was going or what she was doing.

Oh and notices were put up in College Street & The Dome Bar about Xmas Day. Students Union, apparently confirmed it was going ahead - thats a message to all class reps who pass it on to the class.

And to be fair, nobody can say the college dont support it. They do. They were very closed to not doing so this year but managed to be persauded by the students union. It was an offical colle event (at least, the college sanctioned it)

Sully

Aquos:-

Ambulance Control said on the phone to me that they had no record of a call to the incident. I was very supprised the guards never called them, but something went amiss somewhere. Im more inclined to blame the Ambulance since it was parked in Maxol, not attending a call.

In addition, Tramore was not requested (afaik) and I dont think they do Waterford calls unless its a serious incident (since then Tramore wont have coverage).

stick-dan

Sully hit the nail on the head there the college are definitely supporting the day without a doubt....Why else organise a clean up of templars hall???I wonder would it have anything to do with the residents complaining about the students behaviour of last years christmas day which lead to soccer antics at 4am in the morning,....needless to say that that didn't go down to well with the college...So the college in conjunction with the students union sprung up the idea of organising a clean up in templars to keep the residents happy temporarily enough for to allow christmas day to go ahead at the very least....No other reason than the continuance of christmas day was the motive behind the clean-up.Plus i'll briefly mention the golden letter head mail sent to each student residence before christmas day detailing the college's disgust at the behaviour of students in templars with regard to drinking which ultimately sprung from the ongoing of christmas day last year when templars literally became a war-zone...So if the college don't approve why are they sending letters to students warning them to behave in general even though it was so appropriately timed to THE BIG DAY itself. The college wanted it to go ahead but just to be run on a lesser scale than previous years. It all roots back to the college. They (the college) do have the power in most aspects of control over christmas day. It just seems that they dont care if it goes ahead or not.

Sully

Was talking to students union about the WIT Christmas Day 2007. According to the gardai a record number of people were about, but it passed of realitvely peacefully. A few arrests were made for minor stuff (such as Public Order Offenses), and there was only a few people hospitalised with minor injuries. Nobody was arrested (student wise) for drink driving either. Extra Gardai and Security for student accommodation was put on for the night in question. No complaints went to WLR, a few into Beat from Riverwalk students which the owner is defending.

Also, Manor Village and Riverwalk passed of peacefully. Issues arose in Templers Hall (as per usual) which was the only place that had anything worthwile to repeat.

There was little trouble in Dome and it was not as crowded as previous years. Nobody was completely wasted. It was pointed out if the college closed the Dome people would spread out into other pubs in the surrounding areas anyway. They think its better to have them all in the one place under watch by security then spread out causing problems in other pubs with no security.

So, overall while there were large numbers of people on the street it wasnt that bad.

SUNGOD

it really doesnt matter who organises or supports christmas day it all comes down to the fact that all these people who went out and drank on christmas day actually wanted to. nobody made them or forced them and the majority woke up the following morning after having a great night. granted trouble arises when that amount of people desend on the one area. these same people will probably look back on these kind of days and cringe about how foolish they were. its called growing up,expieranceing new things and making mistakes everybody does it, but reading this thread maybe they dont as some of the previous posts seem to want to imprision anyone for enjoying themselves, i find that houlier than thou attitude rather tedious

Sully

SUNGOD wrote: »

it really doesnt matter who organises or supports christmas day it all comes down to the fact that all these people who went out and drank on christmas day actually wanted to. nobody made them or forced them and the majority woke up the following morning after having a great night. granted trouble arises when that amount of people desend on the one area. these same people will probably look back on these kind of days and cringe about how foolish they were. its called growing up,expieranceing new things and making mistakes everybody does it, but reading this thread maybe they dont as some of the previous posts seem to want to imprision anyone for enjoying themselves, i find that houlier than thou attitude rather tedious

I agreed with everything right up until the point of "expieranceing new things". Its not a good thing to go out and experiment - just look what happened to Kevin Dolye. Experimenting, and now he is dead. Constant drinking damages your liver. Just look at George Best. He clearly didn't learn his lesson.

I'm all for people going out, having a drink and having a laugh. Thing is, the large majority that went out seemed to think getting completely wasted is a "great night out". I'm sure the large majority will continue drinking and maybe your right, they will finally realise "What an idiot I was". Thing is - it could be to late by then.

stick-dan

With regard to going out i am all for it there aint no better form of entertainment really as myself sully and ec18 will testify from a recent all nighter session we had that was a mad laugh....but now i have to agree with the view on experimenting...may be a little harsh of an example to use but say if we were all to experiment some night with lets say some cocaine or summit...ah sure we're experimenting just for the laugh.*(which we would never do) and then say after experimenting with cocaine we all went out on the town and for wateva side effect of the cocaine we all start a fight with some fella and seriously hurt him and its all down to "experimenting" ...now this may be a bit of a harsh view and example but i think it gets across the point that this "experimenting" on christmas day isn't as innocent as it's cracked up to be...

AdMMM

Sully wrote: »

I agreed with everything right up until the point of "expieranceing new things". Its not a good thing to go out and experiment - just look what happened to Kevin Dolye. Experimenting, and now he is dead. Constant drinking damages your liver. Just look at George Best. He clearly didn't learn his lesson.

I'm all for people going out, having a drink and having a laugh. Thing is, the large majority that went out seemed to think getting completely wasted is a "great night out". I'm sure the large majority will continue drinking and maybe your right, they will finally realise "What an idiot I was". Thing is - it could be to late by then.

You've both taken "experiencing new things" totally out of context.

From my interpretation, SUNGOD was talking about experiencing new things while growing up. My idea of experiencing new things over the past number of years certainly hasn't included sampling drugs and contrary to what you both may think, new experiences aren't confined to drug taking.

ztoical

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

new experiences aren't confined to drug taking.

Very true - I went through college having a few heavy nights out drinking but never felt the urge to try drugs - nothing to do with thinking they are good or bad or anything just had no interest. But I can see the point that some people are trying to make about the excess drinking and my issue with the whole thing is that its usually your only option in this country. Yes people are allowed to go and get wasted if thats their choice but it is becoming the attitude in this country that you have to go out and get wasted or else you didn't have a good night - going out, having a few drinks, dancing and a laugh with your mates doesn't seem to be the thing to do.

I went to college in the states and because of the 21 drinking limit, any college event had to focus on something other then drink. The colleges annual halloween party was one of the best I'd ever been to and there was no drink at it.

I was unable to attend a recent two day comic event in dublin and when asked what happened in the evenings when the con finished the reply was drinking. Myself and a few others asked what the options were for those who had no interest in destroying their livers and the answer was Social in Ireland means drinking. IE "Hes not very social" = "He doesnt really drink" And thats the attitude that drives me up the wall.

I know people are just going to respond with "but theres nothing else to do" but is that really a good enough reason to go out and get wasted? "O I'd nothing better to do" doesn't really strike me as healthy.

As for the ambulance not responding - you don't know why they were parked there. Do you know they had got the call? You don't know how long they'd been on call that night and the other ambulance crew might have been on the way. It sounds more like a breakdown in communication rather then the ambulance crew being lazy.

Sully

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

You've both taken "experiencing new things" totally out of context.

From my interpretation, SUNGOD was talking about experiencing new things while growing up. My idea of experiencing new things over the past number of years certainly hasn't included sampling drugs and contrary to what you both may think, new experiences aren't confined to drug taking.

I was using drug taking as an example.

AdMMM

But why immediately use drugs as an example? As I said, I've experienced many new things in the last few years, none of which has been drug taking. I'm sure it's the same for the vast majority of people, but straightaway you use drugs as an example!

By using drugs as a prime example, you are implying that new experiences are a bad thing!

stick-dan

ztoical wrote: »

"Hes not very social" = "He doesnt really drink"[/I] And thats the attitude that drives me up the wall.

I know people are just going to respond with "but theres nothing else to do" but is that really a good enough reason to go out and get wasted? "O I'd nothing better to do" doesn't really strike me as healthy.

I have to agree with you there that that is the general concenus of the population that if you don't go and get absolutely plastered on a night out it wasn't a good night and not worth going out in that case. This type of view is totally stupid..How is being so drunk that you have no self control what so ever over yourself their idea of a good night out..It barbaric...Like tbh anyone who thinks like this really have no will power what so ever if they feel compelled to go out and just follow the example of any random eejit who is locked in a club...There is nothing wrong with having a few drinks and heading to a club dancing and then heading home on a tipsy manner but for some ungodly reason anyone who does this is a woose!!..

Oh and with regard to the experimenting sode of things i only used drugs because of the recent events in ballybeg, didn't mean in general so apologies if i offended anyone on that note.:)

Sully

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

But why immediately use drugs as an example? As I said, I've experienced many new things in the last few years, none of which has been drug taking. I'm sure it's the same for the vast majority of people, but straightaway you use drugs as an example!

By using drugs as a prime example, you are implying that new experiences are a bad thing!

You are talking to me right? Cause Dan thinks your talking to him :P

Anywhome, I used drugs as a lot of people experiment using drugs to. Obviously there are other areas to experiment, but drugs and drink would probably be the most common.

AdMMM

But that's the thing, if you think that a lot of people (as in the majority) experiment with drugs then you need to look at the big picture and re-evaluate who you socialise with!

Sully

Can I just point out, as its been said a few times:- The college can tell the Dome to close for Christmas Day. The college is affilated with Christmas Day. It can indeed decide not to support it. But, I agree, if the Dome doesnt have it - other pubs will benefit and students will head out anyway

merlante

Sully wrote: »

It also isn't in the rules for students in accommodation to destroy estates, get pissed, cause fights, piss of residents etc. Yet, the college intervenes and threatens students. So that's that theory out the window, to be fair.

The college pursues its own interests, which is to avoid any negative publicity, and so they apply whatever sanctions they can to restrain students. But it is not their job, it is job of the gardaí to enforce the law.

It's also questionable whether the college can actually really do anything about students pissing off residents, etc., if it came to the legal crunch.

Sully wrote: »

I, nor anyone else, is suggesting that it should. What we are saying is the college is aware that its the same **** every year, they support and encourage the event knowing full well the disaster and consequences it causes each year. Its a college event, so much so they prepare the door with barriers to keep the crowd and security to search all those going in and keep the "peace". We believe that the college should withdraw support for such an event. This may (or may not) reduce the ****. Either way, the college shouldn't support an event like this.

The college supports student activities via society funding, the student's union, and so on. It has alway been considered a good idea to give students money to plan their own activities and events, so that students can take more of an active role in their college life, both academic and social. If the college stop funding any event where students come into contact with alcohol then they will quite rightly disenfranchise the student body, who will then organise their own events outside the auspices of the college.

There is nothing wrong with drinking. It's drinking to excess that is the problem. It is not the college's job to ensure that students drink in moderation -- it just isin't. Just because a number of students go too far is no reason to stop the whole thing.

The problem, where there is a problem, is with Irish drinking patterns. At the end of the day, though, we're not going to ban drink, because some people get drunk and cause trouble, just the same as we're not going to ban driving in order to reduce road deaths.

The day the governement, a college, an employer or anybody else starts telling me how much alcohol I should be drinking is the day I leave this country forever. We don't live in Saudi!

fastman

Some craic that day, was in masons at like 6pm and the place was rockin !!

Sully

Ya the students seem to enjoy it, but the public dont. I believe there were incidents that came to light recently, about doors being kicked in and general arrests being made. Nothing major, but I believe the issue is still there and the college even looked into making going to college a requirement on the day. (Dont worry, its not being looked into or talked about. It was briefly mentioned I believe, and nothing has further came of it)