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All non EU citizens to be figerprinted

MIN2511

It doesn't get better than this, while i understand the need to reduce crime and fraud. I believe this is a step too far:mad:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=48725-qqqx=1.asp

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arybvtcw0eolkf

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

-What about these kids?

The last paragraph of that articule tells its own story!.

You know what, I'm old enough to remember my parents and grandparents talking about TB, and how great it was that it was erradicated from ireland in the mid-50's.

They rejoiced at the closing of the TB hospitals, not because the HSE didn't have government funding, nooooooooo, because it was here no more!.

I refer you to my first paragraph here, and the last of your articule for the answer.

Thank you. But I'm getting into the shower now and heading out for the night..

Vorsprung

Foreigners make up something like 10% of the population. I would be very surprised if that same group committed more than 10% of crime here. But if you got figures I'll stand to be corrected.

And TB is not that rare in Irish hospitals. From my experience from spending a lot of time in hospitals, it is Irish people that are more likely to be suffering from TB.

TB has been creeping up because of a new drug resistant form. This has happened to most bacteria - MRSA for example.

Either way......I don't see how your DNA profiling would solve any problems.

Lands Leaving

EF wrote: »

Fingerprinting is essential, I work in the department. So many people have several identities we need to know who is who. Some of them have found a way around it though

A way around it? what do they do? lop off someone elses hand?

Overheal

ojewriej wrote: »

yeah mate, dead right. But actually given that most crimes in ireland are still committed by the Irish thugs, we should all get fingerprinted. And why stop there, we should all get these chips implanted, so the cops can see where we are at all times. I mean, if you are not a criminal, you have nothing to worry about, right?

Why stop at microchips? I mean we already have the public surveillance: go take a walk into town some day and keep tabs on how many cameras you see around the place.
Why stop at cameras? Lets bring in unwarranted phone tapping too. Hell lets start monitoring web-traffic as well.

And now you want to include medical screening to the list?

People, people, people.

One day you can b*tch about 'oh I cant get a job!' and in the same breath 'get off my land foreigner filth!'

When you fail to realise how much of the country's commerce is done on the backs of foreign investment. If you start throwing up all of these obstacles to entry, you can bet your ass they'll think twice before coming here again. Say goodbye to your Apple/iPod Manufacturing in Cork, Your Intel Processor plant outside of Dublin, Dell Computers etc and so on and so forth. I use electronic examples cos Im sorry, thats just what I know. There are dozens more prime examples I'm sure. Feel free to throw in a few for consideration.

The point being, its convenient now for a company to come and in and start-up when their startup group (the managers, executives, consultants, etc) can all fly in without having to drop their pants and have a finger stuffed in their rectum. Who would want to give you the benefit of their jobs and money if thats how they were treated? They wouldn't stay long enough for the first Irish employee to get his foot in the door.

As a student, do you think I want to go through that annually (or every 6 months as is more usually the case) so I can stay here and pursue a course of study? Hell no. Its expensive to get screened like that. And degrading. I dont mind paying the 100/yr/6mo but now you propose that you want to have a feel of my scrote' too? **** you.

Look I can understand and appreciate the use of biometric identitification but the whole screening proposition is a wee bit too far.

Huggles

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

-More Irish people commit crimes than foreigners.
-More Irish people suffer from TB than foreigners.
-HIV was a problem in Ireland long before we started getting large numbers of foreigners coming into the country.

Sources?

arybvtcw0eolkf

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

MRSA

Yea, and I wonder where that came from too.

Funny that we never heard of ten year's ago ¬¬

Lands Leaving

Mairt wrote: »

Yea, and I wonder where that came from too.

Funny that we never heard of ten year's ago ¬¬

I believe mrsa is a by-product of dirty hospitals rather than immigration

[Deleted User]

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

Foreigners make up something like 10% of the population. I would be very surprised if that same group committed more than 10% of crime here. But if you got figures I'll stand to be corrected.

With an argument this compelling who needs hard facts!

[Deleted User]

Overheal wrote: »

Why stop at microchips? I mean we already have the public surveillance: go take a walk into town some day and keep tabs on how many cameras you see around the place.
Why stop at cameras? Lets bring in unwarranted phone tapping too. Hell lets start monitoring web-traffic as well.

And now you want to include medical screening to the list?

People, people, people.

One day you can b*tch about 'oh I cant get a job!' and in the same breath 'get off my land foreigner filth!'

When you fail to realise how much of the country's commerce is done on the backs of foreign investment. If you start throwing up all of these obstacles to entry, you can bet your ass they'll think twice before coming here again. Say goodbye to your Apple/iPod Manufacturing in Cork, Your Intel Processor plant outside of Dublin, Dell Computers etc and so on and so forth. I use electronic examples cos Im sorry, thats just what I know. There are dozens more prime examples I'm sure. Feel free to throw in a few for consideration.

The point being, its convenient now for a company to come and in and start-up when their startup group (the managers, executives, consultants, etc) can all fly in without having to drop their pants and have a finger stuffed in their rectum. Who would want to give you the benefit of their jobs and money if thats how they were treated? They wouldn't stay long enough for the first Irish employee to get his foot in the door.

As a student, do you think I want to go through that annually (or every 6 months as is more usually the case) so I can stay here and pursue a course of study? Hell no. Its expensive to get screened like that. And degrading. I dont mind paying the 100/yr/6mo but now you propose that you want to have a feel of my scrote' too? **** you.

Look I can understand and appreciate the use of biometric identitification but the whole screening proposition is a wee bit too far.

What utter twaddle. You have basicly caricatured the argument and then sucessfully argued against yourself!

ojewriej

Mairt wrote: »

No, it was you who suggested micro-chipping, I pointed out the alternative.

Well it's a different method, but still the same result - a tracking device is a tracking device, wheteher it's a chip or ankle braceelet. So my question still stands.

MagicMarker

MIN2511 wrote: »

That's where you were abusive

Obviously you're a very sensitive person. So boards may not be for you in the long run. Good luck with it though;)

MIN2511

Overheal wrote: »

People, people, people.

One day you can b*tch about 'oh I cant get a job!' and in the same breath 'get off my land foreigner filth!'

When you fail to realise how much of the country's commerce is done on the backs of foreign investment. If you start throwing up all of these obstacles to entry, you can bet your ass they'll think twice before coming here again. Say goodbye to your Apple/iPod Manufacturing in Cork, Your Intel Processor plant outside of Dublin, Dell Computers etc and so on and so forth. I use electronic examples cos Im sorry, thats just what I know. There are dozens more prime examples I'm sure. Feel free to throw in a few for consideration.

The point being, its convenient now for a company to come and in and start-up when their startup group (the managers, executives, consultants, etc) can all fly in without having to drop their pants and have a finger stuffed in their rectum. Who would want to give you the benefit of their jobs and money if thats how they were treated? They wouldn't stay long enough for the first Irish employee to get his foot in the door.

As a student, do you think I want to go through that annually (or every 6 months as is more usually the case) so I can stay here and pursue a course of study? Hell no. Its expensive to get screened like that. And degrading. I dont mind paying the 100/yr/6mo but now you propose that you want to have a feel of my scrote' too? **** you.

Look I can understand and appreciate the use of biometric identitification but the whole screening proposition is a wee bit too far.

· Microsoft
· Xerox,
· Dell
· Deloitte
· Grant Thornton
· Tesco
· Aldi
· Mac Donalds
· Hilton hotels
· Google

The list is endless.... So many foreign companies that come here for the low business tax, if you want to get rid of all the foreigners then you are getting rid 75% of the economy.

http://www.amcham.ie/article.cfm?idarticle=461

Statso

Might help stop the eastern european crime syndicates over here. I couldn't believe it when a Garda mate of mine told me about the Russian Mafia trying to get themselves a nice slice of the crime profits over here now. We have enough scumbags in this country without other professional criminals coming in. If the immigrants are totally legal and have nothing to hide then they don't have to worry about this at all as some people said.

Goldenquick

Are we saying here that fingerprinting will stop diseases coming into the country? Apologies for putting silly, silly silly, everyone is entitled to their personal opinions.

Facts below:

One of my daughters had an operation in a hospital in Ireland 12 years ago and had to be recalled to a clinic to get tested for TB as one of the cleaners on the ward had just tested positive for it, an Irish worker btw.

My youngest daughter' friends mother died from TB when the friend was 4. My daughter's friend herself had to spend a year in hospital because she got TB. That was also 12 years ago.

On another note, I first came across MRSA 14 years ago in England, we were told my friend who was dying was the first person to get it in a Nottingham, the only other cases heard about it at that time were in a London hospital. An English doctor had just recently relocated to Nottingham from the particular London hospital, the nurse told us infection control had informed them of this.

In a hospital here, my sister's uncle-in-law had MRSA, a ward helper came in to clean the floor after he missed the commode, being an old man he couldn't help that. The ward helper cleaned the floor with paper towels, she had no gloves on, she then continued out through a full ward of patients, one of whom called out to ask her for something, she put the wet urine soaked towels on the window and went to help out this other patient, touching him in the process. My sister mentioned this to one of the nurses who said, "ah sure, it's all hype about this MRSA, we've got no directives about it at all". This was only 4 years ago.

No I won't be laying the blame for any of the diseases we have here on people coming into the country, I lay the blame solely on the government/s not listening and trying to shove it under the carpet.

Edited to add, yes I do think fingerprinting is a good idea, there are far too many criminals being admitted to Ireland, if there was a fingerprint system in place that can immediately check with the country they are coming from to see if they have criminal convictions, brilliant, they can be turned around at immigration.

MIN2511

The immigrants that are referred to in the article are non European, so eastern European crime lords are allowed to commit crimes :)there is no need to get their finger prints as it's only the non Europeans that commit crimes:D

humbert

Goldenquick wrote: »

Are we saying here that fingerprinting will stop diseases coming into the country? Silly silly silly.

Nobody said that, or even implied that.

Richard W

I don't see why anyone would be opposed to having a record of their fingerprint on file. It's simply another form of identification. To say that it's on par with a microchip implanted in you is absolutely ridiculous. It's much more comparable to a record of your name.

humbert

MIN2511 wrote: »

The immigrants that are referred to in the article are non European, so eastern European crime lords are allowed to commit crimes :)there is no need to get their finger prints as it's only the non Europeans that commit crimes:D

My understanding would be that this is put in place to keep track of illegal immigrants, or immigrants who remain illegally, not to prevent criminals entering that country.

SimpleSam06

So lets say johnny foreigner docks up at Dublin airport, and gets fingerprinted: what good will it do? In order to prove previous criminal activities you have to

a) assume that they were fingerprinted by their own government
b) assume that these fingerprints were successfully converted to an accurate digital copy
c) assume that said government has compatible systems with your own so you can run a search for these fingerprints
d) assume that they are even willing to do so
e) and have a place to keep johnny while the system tries to speak with its counterpart in Nigeria or Uzbekhistan without clogging up the whole airport.

While it would catch a minority of individuals who committed crimes in the EU or the US, and somehow returned and managed to get to Ireland, for the most part it would be nothing but an inconvenience to travellers and migrants. Mind you, there is a certain element of quid pro quo with the US, the old spies trick; you take the fingerprints of our citizens, we get the prints of yours, and we swap them around. All nice and legal.

I am definetely in favour of mandatory testing for disease at the borders however, and turning away flat anyone with a disease as serious as AIDs, for example.

Overheal

ronoc wrote: »

What utter twaddle. You have basicly caricatured the argument and then sucessfully argued against yourself!

my argument serves a warning to what can happen if you concede to one thing - it starts with fingerprints (grand) then in 5 years its microchips and retinal scans and medical screening.
Basically Im against this notion of disease control. I mean, so what if I happen to have AIDs? isnt that my own problem? What if you were to contract AIDs? Will we deport you too?
Not to mention how impractical such screening would be at Shannon/Dublin, say.

Feel free to support your biometrics but dont be shocked when foreign investment and tourism starts to fall backward. If not now then when the next 'level of security' is implemented. Honestly I wouldnt be able to stand going back to the USA if I werent a national: how much crap do [we] put you through? Its a wonder you come at all.

Capt'n Midnight

MIN2511 wrote: »

LMAO
Very true, I guess that would be next. Micro chips, like animals?

It's the old "no fixed abode" problem. Most Irish citizens have a know address and have documents like RSI cards and birth certs that the state can checkup on. The Irish state can't do the same background checks on non-nationals because quite rightly they won't have access to foreign databases.

One big brother solution is to ban ready to go phones that aren't registered to a passport or other acceptable proof of identity. Could be done tomorrow, and then you'd have to register to get it working again. State knows who registered the phone and where it is. Not even remotely foolproof but it could be implemented at almost zero cost starting tomorrow.

Most Irish people are already trackable, even with pre-pay phones with a little cross referencing of numbers dialed to eircom land land line, the electoral registor and Thoms directory not to mention the other gov't databases. Foreign nationals would not be as easy to trace in the same way.

The new Irish passports are RFID too. This means that like most EU/US citizens we will be totally tracable at point of entry.

BTW:
Chipping people has begun on a "voluntary" basis for employees of some high tech companies.

Do I see a problem with validating my passport or RSI card with a finger print ?
I'd prefer it to using a PIN. If used more (and with a proper hash function / salting) it would reduce the risk of credit card and ATM card theft as well as reducing fake documents.

Short version
I've no problem with a person needing to prove their identity before accessing services and feel strongly about personation regardless of who it's done by and don't feel the penalties actually imposed here are a sufficient deterant for stuff like electoral fraud.
I do object to general tracking and recording unless part of a specific investigation.

Overheal

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One big brother solution is to ban ready to go phones that aren't registered to a passport or other acceptable proof of identity. Could be done tomorrow, and then you'd have to register to get it working again. State knows who registered the phone and where it is. Not even remotely foolproof but it could be implemented at almost zero cost starting tomorrow.

Most Irish people are already trackable, even with pre-pay phones with a little cross referencing of numbers dialed to eircom land land line, the electoral registor and Thoms directory not to mention the other gov't databases. Foreign nationals would not be as easy to trace in the same way.

Its thinking like this, that has me wound up :mad: here we are already onto phone tapping and tracking. Its disgusting.

They have this in the states now: Sprint PCS has a new generation of mobiles that allow you to find the GPS location of all your friends! How cool is that! Except *snap* darnit, the government watches you drive down the road to the supermarket and back. Despite the obvious benefits (Emergency services) I'd much rather hang onto my privacy. Thanks.

Its not fair on anyone, really. Why single out non-EU though? 2/3 of the non nationals in this country derive from the EUnion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NonnationalsIreland2006.png

Vorsprung

ronoc wrote: »

With an argument this compelling who needs hard facts!

http://www.ndsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/VaccinePreventable/TuberculosisTB/Publications/AnnualReportsontheEpidemiologyofTBinIreland/File,1522,en.pdf

Knock yourself out.

humbert

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

http://www.ndsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/VaccinePreventable/TuberculosisTB/Publications/AnnualReportsontheEpidemiologyofTBinIreland/File,1522,en.pdf

Knock yourself out.

Am I right in reading that that says one third of TB incidents were from people not born in Ireland? Is that not a very large percentage?

Capt'n Midnight

Overheal wrote: »

Its thinking like this, that has me wound up :mad: here we are already onto phone tapping and tracking. Its disgusting.

They have this in the states now: Sprint PCS has a new generation of mobiles that allow you to find the GPS location of all your friends! How cool is that! Except *snap* darnit, the government watches you drive down the road to the supermarket and back. Despite the obvious benefits (Emergency services) I'd much rather hang onto my privacy. Thanks.

Its not fair on anyone, really. Why single out non-EU though? 2/3 of the non nationals in this country derive from the EUnion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NonnationalsIreland2006.png

It's not GPS it's based on the masts.
Traiangluation by mobile phone is technically possible to within a few meters. The emergency services in the US wanted position info, the civli liberties were against it. The compromise worked was to have the info limited to 100m can't remember the exact distance.

most EU nationals have a legal right to be here and most have or will have cyber passports. If someone can't produce a traceable EU passport or ID card then of course they'd be fingerprinted.

As for we are already into phone tapping, all phone calls and internet traffic via the UK or US has been monitored for ages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON Voice recognition software on UK phone calls has been standard since at least the early 90's. Very little of our international traffic does not get routed through the UK or US. Main difference is that our own government is now legally allowed to do this and keep the data for 3 years ? even though the EU requirement is 6 months ?
Again it's another example of how someone with a fixed abode is far more tracable than a migrant. (also means that it's technically possible for the Guards to request similar traffic from other EU states.

daiixi

This is quite scary for the likes of me who is living in Ireland and fully obeys the law. It's not so much that I have anything to hide it's just that why should I trust anyone, any department, with all of my personal details AND fingerprints AND whatever else the government decides it wants from me down the line?
This week's blunder in the UK of someone posting the personal details of millions of people is scary. If I could be assured that my finger prints would be kept safe and not used for illicit purposes then I'd have no problem but noone can promise me that.
As it is I spend up to five/six hours every year registering my presence in the country (yes, every year even though my visa is valid for a number of years) and am then given an identification card (the picture on which barely ever resembles me anyway) which I'm never asked to produce - even when flying into the country. I don't see the point of any of this tbh.

RoyalMarine

all non eu people having their fingerprints recoreded.
what about all ue citizens? or do they not commit crimes??

how about an international non government run system where everyone has their finger prints taken, dna recorded, dental records, etc etc. and its all kept for life.

i would also support the microchipping of every human alive. monitored by satellites and such.
murderer's and rapists, crime, everything would be brought to justice so much easier.
along with missing persons.

Goldenquick

humbert wrote: »

Nobody said that, or even implied that.

Read post No. 37. I did think better of how my words would come across a few minutes later and apologised

humbert

Goldenquick wrote: »

Read post No. 37. I did think better of how my words would come across a few minutes later and apologised .

My point is that nobody is suggesting fingerprinting will have an affect on disease control and neither was Mairt in that post. However I agree with you that immigration has nothing to do with MRSA which is what was suggested.

ParkRunner

Lands Leaving wrote: »

A way around it? what do they do? lop off someone elses hand?

I can't say how they do it here im afraid. Where there's a will there's a way though