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Luas for Waterfors

teckno

Heard on local news today that Government launching feasibility studies into Luas lines for Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick. It would be fantastic to have a luas Line in Waterford, but probably pre election spin.

What would the route be however??
Start off in ferrybank, and cross a brand new Luas only bridge over the Suir, final destination WIT Heaven for me!! No more driving cars i traffic

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purple'n'gold

Luas? You people are so lucky; we in Wexford don’t even have a bus service. And please don’t anyone come on here and say what about the shuttle bus. I feel ill enough already.

merlante

Jammyd wrote:

sorry i ment to state cities in Sweden with a population of just over 70000 has a feasible tram sytem the city i refer to is Norrköping (population 83000 including greater urban area.

The argument for galway is based in projections that the city is growing a lot faster than waterford and is set to exceed 100,000 by 2020.

Also the 20 miles east to west i refer to is from bearna to oranmore these are the new suburbs of galway. there importance is shown by the fact they are the polar ends of the proposed tram lines. (Use google earth and check it out yourself)

Please do not argue against catchment areas, it is silly to discuss a greater catchement area of waterford as urban centres such as kilkenny, Dungarvan,wexford and carlow all tend to get thrown in there,these towns although not completely self sufficent or reliant on waterford, do have large local employment and a wide range of retail and service facilities

anways imo i dont believe these projects will ever get off the ground. Cork and perhaps galway projects may get sanctioned but as for limerick and waterford it is doubtful when listening to what politicians and CIE have to say.

Lets not make this a Galway vs Waterford thread..
Galway wins hands down (only kidding just wanted to rustle yer feathers a bit more)

Well Jammyd, we don't know how fast Waterford will grow over the next 20 years. Galway's growth over the past 20 years has been phenomenal and I doubt it was predicted by anyone. Waterford has finally starting to boom some years after the other cities, so let's see.

You obviously don't have a great understanding of what we mean by population catchment areas in Waterford. Tramore, just 6 miles outside the city, has a population of around 10,000 (est. 2006), and has been growing at 15-25% every census, similar to Galway actually. The population of Waterford/Tramore is 60,000. New Ross, a town of about 6,500 is 11 miles away, and Carrick-On-Suir, 17 miles away is 5,500. Although Galway city has 22,000 more people living in it than Waterford, Waterford's hinterland is much more populated and there are numerous towns close by. The catchment within a 15 miles radius of Waterford would be larger than the same around Galway, and this does not include large towns such as Clonmel, Kilkenny and Wexford (obviously).

You mention two towns, Barna and Oranmore, however Barna is actually within Galway's city boundary and therefore is part of the 72,000 population and Oranmore is really quite small with only a population of 3,000 people. Galway is a larger city than Waterford, but once you start talking about building infrastructure that goes beyond the city boundary, then the argument becomes weaker, whereas Waterford's case becomes more compelling.

Based on population, commuter services should be provided for Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir to Waterford before Oranmore to Galway.

I think it would be ridiculous if such a service were to be provided for Galway before Limerick. Limerick is the larger city. I don't know what kind of black magic ye have out there in the west to be considered for everything and anything, often ahead of larger cities, but I wish we had some of it!

1huge1

Jammyd wrote:

anways imo i dont believe these projects will ever get off the ground. Cork and perhaps galway projects may get sanctioned but as for limerick and waterford it is doubtful when listening to what politicians and CIE have to say.

Lets not make this a Galway vs Waterford thread..
Galway wins hands down (only kidding just wanted to rustle yer feathers a bit more)

I fail to see why Galway a city of around 70,000 should get a project while Limerick a city close on 100,000 won't
I don't see the logic behind that at all

and don't forget Limerick has shannon,adare,ennis all within 15mins

conaire

Waterford City

Area: 41.58 km²
County: County Waterford
Population: 44,594 (2002)
Province: Munster

Waterford (Irish: Port Lairge) is, historically, the capital of County Waterford in Ireland, though today the city is administered separately from the county, the latter which has its seat in Dungarvan.

Founded by the Vikings in the mid-800s, Waterford was Ireland's first true city. Today Waterford is the fifth largest city in the Republic of Ireland.

Its most famous product is Waterford Crystal which originated here when a glassmaking factory was opened in the city in 1783. Waterford Institute of Technology is a modern college located in the city.

Table of contents [showhide]
1 Population

1.1 Environs

2 History in brief

3 See also

[edit]Population
Central Statistics Office 2002:

City council area: 44,594
Urban population: 46,736

[edit]Environs
Waterford's effective population is much larger than this, with many people living in the towns and villages surrounding the city: the largest of which is Tramore (pop. 8,305).

Co. Kilkenny: 11,459
Co. Waterford: 18,353

[edit]History in brief
From 795 AD, Vikings had been raiding along the coast of Ireland. Soon the Vikings over-wintered in Ireland at ships' havens called Longphorts. A longphort was established at Waterford in 853. Waterford and all the other longphorts were vacated in 902, the Vikings having being driven out by the native Irish. According to the Irish annals, the Vikings re-established themselves in Ireland at Waterford in 914 and built what would be Ireland's first city.

In 1137, Diarmuid MacMorrough, king of Lenster, failed in an attempt to take Waterford. He was trying to secure the large centres in order to advance his claim for high king of Ireland. In 1170 MacMorrough allied himself with Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke (Strongbow); together they besieged and took Waterford after a desperate defence. This was the introduction of the Anglo-Normans into Ireland. In 1171, Henry II of England became the first English king to set foot in an Irish city, by landing with a large fleet at Waterford; he did so to ensure that Ireland became an English colony and not a rival Norman country. Waterford and Dublin were declared royal cities, and belonged to the king, not Strongbow; Dublin was declared capital of Ireland.

Throughout the medieval period, Waterford was Ireland's second city after Dublin. Waterford's great parchment book (1361-1649) represents the earliest use of the English language in Ireland for official purposes. In the 15th century Waterford repelled two pretenders to the english throne: Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. As a result, King Henry VII gave the city its motto: Urbs Intacta Manet Waterfordia (Waterford remains the untaken city).

Waterford remained a Catholic city despite the machinations of king Henry VIII, and participated in the confederation of Kilkenny which was an attempt to break away from british rule. This was ended abruptly by Oliver Cromwell, who brought the country back firmly under British rule, massacring thousands in the process; his nephew Ireton finally took Waterford in 1651.

The 18th century was a period of huge prosperity for Waterford. Most of the city's best architecture appeared during this time. Trading with Newfoundland brought much wealth into what was then the third largest port. In the 19th century, great industries such as glass making and ship building thrived in the city. Thomas Francis Meagher (Meagher of the sword), an Irish nationalist, made the first Irish tri-colour. He brought it back from France and it was first flown from a building on the Mall in Waterford. In the early 20th century John Redmond was MP for Waterford and leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, which almost achieved home rule and a new parliament for Ireland.

[edit]See also
The Three Sisters:
River Barrow
River Nore
River Suir
Blaa, a doughy, white bread roll peculiar to Waterford City
Cathedral of the Most Holy Trinity, Barronstrand st., Waterford

Cities in Ireland
Republic of Ireland: Dublin | Cork | Limerick | Galway | Waterford | Kilkenny
Northern Ireland: Belfast | Derry | Armagh | Newry | Lisburn

Retrieved from "http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Waterford_City"

1huge1

^^ and the point in that was...

conaire

merlante

That rubbishy site just copied everything verbatim from an ancient version of the wikipedia article. FYI, Waterford city + suburbs (2006) is 49,200 (exact figure not released yet). Can't imagine what other information you were trying to convey.

conaire

Apologies.
Did not intent to post entire article, twice at that !!!
The main point being Waterford is unique in that it is in close proximity to a number of other smaller urban areas, therefore its hinterland is quite densly populated.
Tramore for example is already a dormitory town and if you were to add its population to waterfords the combined total would come close to that of Galway.....

mullanimal

Tramore to Waterford would be a fantastic route, it was making money whent the government closed it last time...

I agree with merlante it could link with an airport line and head for johns park within walking distance of wit...

another definite route has to be the dunmore road which is congested because of the sheer number of daily commuters...

i think a tram would be fantastic if it cuts the number of cars on our roads and makes things easier for everyone, young and old.

JMcL

merlante wrote:

Based on population, commuter services should be provided for Tramore, New Ross and Carrick-On-Suir to Waterford before Oranmore to Galway.

Hear, hear. The Tramore bus "service" with one bus every 30 minutes, except at rush hour when bizarrely frequency actually DROPS to hourly (wtf is that all about?) is an absolute joke. It's also bloody expensive.

merlante

JMcL wrote:

Hear, hear. The Tramore bus "service" with one bus every 30 minutes, except at rush hour when bizarrely frequency actually DROPS to hourly (wtf is that all about?) is an absolute joke. It's also bloody expensive.

That bus should be every 15 minutes at a minimum.

It is precisely this **** level of service that alienates the public away from public transport. What the government and CIE have to understand is that if services are poor then passenger numbers will be poor, but that experiences in other countries have shown that if you have a good service, passenger numbers don't just increase, they increase drastically, because the people make a decision that rather than taking the odd bus, that the bus is good enough to rely on. Most people in Ireland are scared to 'rely' on buses, and who could blame them. Poor frequency and occasional and unexplained no-shows just remove people's faith in the service. And all the while, the population density of Waterford and Tramore is lowering constantly (a bad thing for transport and services) and people become more and more car dependent. How long before services are only reachable by car? Marks & Spencer nearly ended up setting up on the outer ring road, which wouldn't have been reachable on foot. Rant over.

JMcL

merlante wrote:

Marks & Spencer nearly ended up setting up on the outer ring road, which wouldn't have been reachable on foot.

Well, unless you walk along the median strip, seeing as the council/NRA couldn't have been arsed building footpaths when they built the damn road like any even semi-functional country would do, they'd rather close half of it down and install them at huge extra cost later. Muppets. Anyway, that's an entirely different rant.

merlante

JMcL wrote:

Well, unless you walk along the median strip, seeing as the council/NRA couldn't have been arsed building footpaths when they built the damn road like any even semi-functional country would do, they'd rather close half of it down and install them at huge extra cost later. Muppets. Anyway, that's an entirely different rant.

Still it's a pretty long and lonely walk out to parts of the ORR...

kilkennycat2004

Van wrote:

This announcement is nothing more than electioneering and should be seen as such.

Spot on Van boy.
A park & ride facility for areas like Tramore, South KK areas like Mullinavat and/or Mooncoin & similar on the New Ross road maybe around Slieverue is as good as it will ever get.
Maybe it could be tried even before the new bridge comes over stream.
Luas for waterford, dream on.

Sully

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Luas for waterford, dream on.

Bet you wouldnt be saying that if Kilkenny "City" was being considered

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Spot on Van boy.
A park & ride facility for areas like Tramore, South KK areas like Mullinavat and/or Mooncoin & similar on the New Ross road maybe around Slieverue is as good as it will ever get.
Maybe it could be tried even before the new bridge comes over stream.
Luas for waterford, dream on.

Sure there'd be uproar in Kilkenny if a Luas was announced for Waterford!

run_Forrest_run

stop wasting yer time folks, this is all just spin from the likes of Cullen and the boys...and Cullen won't see the other end of the election anyway so back to the traffic jams!

kilkennycat2004

run_Forrest_run wrote:

stop wasting yer time folks, this is all just spin from the likes of Cullen and the boys...and Cullen won't see the other end of the election anyway so back to the traffic jams!

Cullen was quoted lately looking towards a viability study on a third river crossing for Waterford & reportedly there was no pigs flying overhead as he spoke.

Ah well his granddad was probably at the meeting in the Granville Hotel in 1962 when Eddie Collins T.D. stood up & suggested a similar viability study for a second river crossing in Waterford.
Now that's only taken 55 plus years.

merlante

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Cullen was quoted lately looking towards a viability study on a third river crossing for Waterford & reportedly there was no pigs flying overhead as he spoke.

Ah well his granddad was probably at the meeting in the Granville Hotel in 1962 when Eddie Collins T.D. stood up & suggested a similar viability study for a second river crossing in Waterford.
Now that's only taken 55 plus years.

It's eating you alive that Waterford is coming on isin't it?

fricatus

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Cullen was quoted lately looking towards a viability study on a third river crossing for Waterford & reportedly there was no pigs flying overhead as he spoke.

It's hard to separate the "wheat" of real infrastructural announcements from the "chaff" of electioneering at the moment.

Having said that though, this country is finally beginning to think seriously about its infrastructure, despite still making elementary mistakes.

A third river crossing won't take 55 years, that's for sure. Anyone going to New Ross or KK from Tramore/Kilcohan/Ardkeen/Williamstown would use it. I think it makes real sense to have a full ring road right around Waterford, especially since there are plans afoot to extend the ring road right around KK. Couldn't have the Cats stealing a march on us there now!

looksee

I don't really see a Luas in Waterford, but if we did, who would be running it? Bus Eireann? They can't run what they have got. Someone has already mentioned the service to Tramore supposedly at half hour intervals. When it gets there it is supposed to go various routes around the town but firstly it is impossible to figure out from the timetable exactly what bus follows what route - the only reliable way to get a bus is to go to the terminus, which is not very handy for most of the estates. There is a long held suspicion that the drivers do whatever route they feel like.

But we have a ring road now, why is there no bus service to the hospital from Tramore, take in Tesco and Ard Keen shopping at the same time. Why is there no Cork road to Tramore service? Loads to do before they are let loose with nice shiney new Luas systems.

kilkennycat2004

merlante wrote:

It's eating you alive that Waterford is coming on isin't it?

No merlente boy, why would it?

Now that the land grab which was always doomed to failure & just simply a way of WCC squandering tax payers money has been put to bed normal service is resumed.

Ferrybank shopping centre that they blocked so many times is shaping up well & in recent days they have allowed KKCC tap into the local water net work as a short term fix. This is how normal connecting areas work & it seems WCC have finally copped on to together we are stronger as a concept.

You'd never know we might be able to help out with a South East University bid after all.

merlante

looksee wrote:

I don't really see a Luas in Waterford, but if we did, who would be running it? Bus Eireann? They can't run what they have got. Someone has already mentioned the service to Tramore supposedly at half hour intervals. When it gets there it is supposed to go various routes around the town but firstly it is impossible to figure out from the timetable exactly what bus follows what route - the only reliable way to get a bus is to go to the terminus, which is not very handy for most of the estates. There is a long held suspicion that the drivers do whatever route they feel like.

But we have a ring road now, why is there no bus service to the hospital from Tramore, take in Tesco and Ard Keen shopping at the same time. Why is there no Cork road to Tramore service? Loads to do before they are let loose with nice shiney new Luas systems.

I'm not saying that it is coming from you, but the attitude that really depresses me about Waterford is when people talk like they have no influence whatsoever in the government or that Waterford will get whatever Waterford is handed and nothing can be done about it either way. It is true that this has been the way of it in the past, but with Cullen in there there has been a change, and there's no reason why we should let things slip back to the way they were.

Instead of saying, "a Luas won't happen," wouldn't it be better to see if a Luas could work, and then if could, campaign for one. This is exactly what Galway are doing, and it's the right attitude to have if you want anything in this country.

There are cities the same size as Waterford out there with tram systems, they do exist: Halberstadt is one of a number of small cities in Germany with trams for example. (German site with pics) Halberstadt has a population of 39,522 (2006), which is smaller than Waterford at 49,200 (2006).

Trams are making a comeback in Europe and they are being put into smaller and smaller cities. Cities like Limerick, Galway and Waterford are still a bit small but this being Ireland, certain things are different: a) Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world, b) Outside of Dublin, the cities are small, BUT they are far more strategically important and economically strong than the sleepy towns of a similar size on the continent, and c) the Irish cities are growing quickly: Cork will soon enter the 200,000+ bracket, Limerick will soon enter the 100,000 bracket, Galway is growing extremely quickly, and Waterford is now growing strongly now, and is probably 30% larger than it was 20 years ago. What would be towns abroad are regional capitals here.

I think we have to get serious about public transport in Ireland, particularly in Waterford, be in buses or trams, because the schedules seem sort of half hearted at the moment, as in you'll take a bus if you don't have a car or are old, but there is no willingly to take a risk by running buses at regular intervals with the intention of converting commuters and shoppers to buses. Trams are a class above buses all right, and they are were a big hit in Dublin, although it seem that the Tallaght Luas should have been an underground or a heavy rail system because it is struggling to provide capacity.

Now we all know that all the parties are playing games at the minute, and we can't take any of it to heart, but if people get excited about things like trams in Waterford, then it becomes more of a real issue than a throw-away half-promise from a transport minister.

mad man

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

No merlente boy, why would it?.

Because you're an ignorant parochial hick.That's why!

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Now that the land grab which was always doomed to failure & just simply a way of WCC squandering tax payers money has been put to bed normal service is resumed.?.

There really is no end to your Backwardness.I hope you will apply the word "Landgrab" to Kilkenny towns attempts to extend its borough into the county.

Most of the social housing in the Ferrybank area and social amenities are funded by WCC.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Ferrybank shopping centre that they blocked so many times is shaping up well & in recent days they have allowed KKCC tap into the local water net work as a short term fix. This is how normal connecting areas work & it seems WCC have finally copped on to together we are stronger as a concept..?..?.

All Previous proposals for Ferrybank SC were inappropriate.That's why they were rejected.Waterford CC simply objected to ABP on well established grounds i.e they were not in accordance with international Best practice.An Bord Pleanala agreed with them.It just proved Kilkenny Co.Co. were more interested in collecting as much rates as they could.Rates that would not have been spent in Ferrybank.It also proved Kilkenny Co.Co. are not fit to administer the South of the County.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

You'd never know we might be able to help out with a South East University bid after all.?.

You probaly could if your rabid self destructive parochialism would let you.But we don't hold our breath here waiting for reasoned thinking from the likes of you.Your probably one of these nut jobs who thinks the radiotherapy facilities should be in Kilmagany or Graignamanaugh.

If you have such a chip on your shoulder about Waterford why don't you **** off and never come near the place again?Oh that's right you can't because you DEPEND on Waterford more than Kilkenny.

run_Forrest_run

mad man wrote:

Because you're an ignorant parochial hick.That's why!

There really is no end to your Backwardness.I hope you will apply the word "Landgrab" to Kilkenny towns attempts to extend its borough into the county.

Most of the social housing in the Ferrybank area and social amenities are funded by WCC.

All Previous proposals for Ferrybank SC were inappropriate.That's why they were rejected.Waterford CC simply objected to ABP on well established grounds i.e they were not in accordance with international Best practice.An Bord Pleanala agreed with them.It just proved Kilkenny Co.Co. were more interested in collecting as much rates as they could.Rates that would not have been spent in Ferrybank.It also proved Kilkenny Co.Co. are not fit to administer the South of the County.

You probaly could if your rabid self destructive parochialism would let you.But we don't hold our breath here waiting for reasoned thinking from the likes of you.Your probably one of these nut jobs who thinks the radiotherapy facilities should be in Kilmagany or Graignamanaugh.

If you have such a chip on your shoulder about Waterford why don't you **** off and never come near the place again?Oh that's right you can't because you DEPEND on Waterford more than Kilkenny.

easy going there mad_man! It seems U have a bit of a chip on your own shoulder! If everyone was to take your view on people from other counties then a lot of us would be guilty against the Dubs, Cork etc..as a lot of Kilkenny & Waterford people work in those larger cities. Your bitter words scream of parochialism itself!
Maybe there is a 'history' between you and KilkennyCat that I am missing!

merlante

Well said mad man, saved me some writing.

run_Forrest_run, read the man's post, what he's saying is completely true, and it is bitterness that he is combating. I don't know how you can read that post and conclude that he is anti-people from other counties, as opposed to anti-a certain portion of the Kilkenny populace that hate Waterford, such as the likes of kilkennycat2004. :rolleyes:

Kilkennycat2004 comes on here to tell us we don't have a hope of getting a Luas and ends up spewing the usual land-grab hate talk. Any excuse at all will do. I'll probably be called a Nazi next.

road_high

Arrgh!!!!!!!!!!!!!Not another thread with little or nthing to do with Kilkenny becoming a pointless Waterford vs KK thing!
Leave it til Sunday lads;) !

Roen

Ffs,
a thread about a hypothetical public transport system ends up being a willy waving contest.
Me for mod tbh

run_Forrest_run

merlante wrote:

Well said mad man, saved me some writing.

run_Forrest_run, read the man's post, what he's saying is completely true, and it is bitterness that he is combating. I don't know how you can read that post and conclude that he is anti-people from other counties, as opposed to anti-a certain portion of the Kilkenny populace that hate Waterford, such as the likes of kilkennycat2004. :rolleyes:

Kilkennycat2004 comes on here to tell us we don't have a hope of getting a Luas and ends up spewing the usual land-grab hate talk. Any excuse at all will do. I'll probably be called a Nazi next.

The whole land grab issue is tiring now, no land will be changing hands and maybe some in Waterford are sore over that..lets all get over it.

What I was trying to get across was the fact that there seems to an element of resentment about KK people working in Waterford...when he says stuff like 'you depend on Waterford', sure that is nonsense, if people are working in Waterford then you could also look at it that Waterford depend on people to fill the jobs and serve the customer base in Waterford to keep businesses gong.

Anyway, as already said here, leave it til Sunday. The banter between Waterford and Kilkenny is healthy when it comes to sport but when it boils down to things like "Ye need us.." and "Go back to your own county for work.." it gets all fairly childish.

road_high

run_Forrest_run wrote:

The whole land grab issue is tiring now, no land will be changing hands and maybe some in Waterford are sore over that..lets all get over it.

What I was trying to get across was the fact that there seems to an element of resentment about KK people working in Waterford...when he says stuff like 'you depend on Waterford', sure that is nonsense, if people are working in Waterford then you could also look at it that Waterford depend on people to fill the jobs and serve the customer base in Waterford to keep businesses gong.

Anyway, as already said here, leave it til Sunday. The banter between Waterford and Kilkenny is healthy when it comes to sport but when it boils down to things like "Ye need us.." and "Go back to your own county for work.." it gets all fairly childish.

Here here... We live in the same region and are interdependent on eachother, more or less...