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glass in a bar fight

patrickolee

Just wondered, in peoples opinion... is it always wrong to use a glass in a bar fight? And if someone uses a glass are they always in the wrong?

Thanks

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Dragan

Karoma wrote:

It doesn't look good. The threat of impending violence is grounds for self defence, but you'd need witnesses to teh event to back him up. And a few character witnesses to confirm that "he's not the sort to go looking for trouble."
He used a weapon in a fight against annother unarmed guy... not good.

Pretty much somes it up, and the pre-emptive strike defence goes right out the window when it's with a bottle. Besides, he had all ready been hit and retaliated with a weapon.

Not good at all.

Dragan

plonk wrote:

Edit: So if you get a glass in the face whats a legitimate retaliation?

Legally : It's a very complicated issue and not something that can be treated in a broad spectrum manner.

Morally : Turn the other cheek. :rolleyes:

Personally : Come near me with a glass and some ill intentions either when i'm working or when i'm out and you'll not be holding anything in that hand for some time.

patrickolee

"Pretty much somes it up, and the pre-emptive strike defence goes right out the window when it's with a bottle".

No wasn't a pre-emptive strike, the other fella hit him first. Then he retaliated with the glass which was in his hand at the time, in blind panic!

Dragan

patrickolee wrote:

No wasn't a pre-emptive strike, the other fella hit him first. Then he retaliated with the glass which was in his hand at the time, in blind panic!

I understand your point but think logically for two seconds. How do you prove "blind panic" in a court room? Character witnesses might do something to show that it is well out of the realm of his normal behaviour but regardless of that fact he glassed someone.

They hit him in the nose? No offence but thats hardly the greatest crime that has ever been comitted on another human being and does not warrant a glass in the face whether it was done by "blind panic" or not.

I have found in my years that people have a little switch that clicks in when violence ensue's and they either have the capacity for great violence or they do not.

It appears your friend does.

Dave!

Dragan wrote:

I understand your point but think logically for two seconds. How do you prove "blind panic" in a court room? Character witnesses might do something to show that it is well out of the realm of his normal behaviour but regardless of that fact he glassed someone.

They hit him in the nose? No offence but thats hardly the greatest crime that has ever been comitted on another human being and does not warrant a glass in the face whether it was done by "blind panic" or not.

I have found in my years that people have a little switch that clicks in when violence ensue's and they either have the capacity for great violence or they do not.

It appears your friend does.

If the bloke hit him first then he has a right (morally, dunno if legally or not) to defend himself. Whether or not it warranted a glass in the face is debateable, but it certainly warranted a reaction. At what point during an assault is it justified for you to hit someone with a glass? When they knock you to the ground? When you feel your life is in danger? How about if you just think they're gonna break your arm?

You don't know the bloke in question, he could never have been in a fight in his life, and the bloke who assaulted him first (taking the OP's word on this) could have mistaken him for someone who owed him money... If a big scary lookin bloke comes at you and punches you in the face, you'll react. If you've never been in a fight before, then your response might not be as measured as a veteran's might be. His instinct was to hit the guy with the nearest object, that being the one in his hand -- a glass.

Not justifying what he did, as I don't know the circumstances besides what's been described so far, but you're dismissing the guy's reaction as if it was a calculated decision. If the OP's description is anything to go by, the guy was in the corner when someone much bigger than him approached him and punched him in the nose. He reacted instinctively to defend himself. That's the argument he will no doubt put forward anyway!

OP, what were the circumstances here? Why did your mate get picked out of the rest of ye? And are you sure he was hit first? The cut on his nose coulda been from the broken glass....

patrickolee

"OP, what were the circumstances here? Why did your mate get picked out of the rest of ye? And are you sure he was hit first? The cut on his nose coulda been from the broken glass...."

He's never been in a fight before, or since. In fact hasn't even been a nightclub since... it's 2.5 years ago now. Afraid he was on his own at the time, two other of our friends had just left, one was downstairs and I was at the bar. Cut on nose, couldn't have been from glass, his nose was still bleeding (from the inside) half an hour later and there was blood in his mouth, i.e. red teeth. The cut on his nose was indicated in the gardas notes of the night. He had other scuffs on his face, but nothing as serious.

Miguel_Sanchez

Reacting to a punch with a glass in the face seems to me to be escalating the violence and while I'm sure he wasn't thinking properly at the time it could easily be viewed as such in a courtroom.

A friend of mine last year got glassed in the face and stabbed in the leg by a bunch of guys. Not a pretty sight at all afterwards - he was scarred very badly for a long time and is only now starting to look anywhere near his old self again.

mikemac

I'm reading about these terrible injuries and wondering does safety glass do nothing?
If you strike a pint glass against something it shatters so no sharp edges. At least that's how it was explained to me.

patrickolee

Yep, I wish they did just use that safety glasses everywhere. Would make a lotta sense. AFAIK they don't because of cost.

Placebo

my friend few months ago got glasses infront of me , everything went slow motion, he ran off then. it was over a subtle insult. his head was bleeding a little but i think it really depends how your hit with it.

this other guy a year ago got hit with a bottle in the beer garden to the back of the head, hes still in coma !

mikemac

patrickolee wrote:

Yep, I wish they did just use that safety glasses everywhere. Would make a lotta sense. AFAIK they don't because of cost.

As a former barman, we got free glasses from the brewrys (spelling?).
I also thought safety glass was a legal requirment. If not, that's just not good enough and not just in case of fights. Staff constantly break and have to sweep up broken glass so they can easily get cuts.

Safety glass should be mandatory! Will look into this further.

nesf

The issue is escalation. If a guy punches me, I'll get away with punching him back but I won't get away with breaking bones, cutting him badly etc. If a guy attacks me with a knife and either stabs me or makes an attempt to do so then I'll (probably) get away with breaking bones, smashing a bar stool over his head or whatever in self defence.

Never, under any circumstances, react "more violently" then the guy attacking you. i.e. in blunt terms never use a weapon when he has none and never do anything stupid (like stamping on his knee/body) when all he's done is punch you in the face. You can retaliate under law for the most part but keep it "reasonable" if you want to avoid getting into trouble with the law.

Then, walking away is far easier tbh. I don't get this whole standing up for yourself in all circumstances crap.

Jesus Wept

nesf wrote:

The issue is escalation. If a guy punches me, I'll get away with punching him back but I won't get away with breaking bones, cutting him badly etc. If a guy attacks me with a knife and either stabs me or makes an attempt to do so then I'll (probably) get away with breaking bones, smashing a bar stool over his head or whatever in self defence.

Never, under any circumstances, react "more violently" then the guy attacking you. i.e. in blunt terms never use a weapon when he has none and never do anything stupid (like stamping on his knee/body) when all he's done is punch you in the face. You can retaliate under law for the most part but keep it "reasonable" if you want to avoid getting into trouble with the law.

Then, walking away is far easier tbh. I don't get this whole standing up for yourself in all circumstances crap.

I'm the least violent person you'd meet and I would be no use in a fight whatseover.

If someone randomly starts a fight with you, and yes, it does happen, far too often that someone is looking for trouble and starts a fight with someone who has done nothing whatsoever to instigate it, then all bets are off.

You can't start a fight out of nothing with someone, and in the case of what we heard, someone far smaller than the attacker, and then expect 'a fair fight'.

The person instigating the fight is doing so with someone who has no desire to get involved in a fight, their desire to get into a fight is not like for like, so why should any retaliation be like for like.

Also, if some person is randomly looming down on you aggressively, you have no idea what they are willing to do, are you supposed to wait to wait for them to glass you/knife you/pull a gun/strangle you/break your face/bounce your head off the ground causing lasting damange/snap your neck, and then attempt to retaliate with a like force?

Bottom line is, if someone attacks you out of nothing, all bets are off, and anything they get is coming to them.

With that said, its a nasty situation all around, and I hope I'm never in such a situation.

de5p0i1er

If you want to fight someone then use your fists, if you can't win like that then you don't deserve to win. If someone pulls out a weapon then its open season on them.

tj-music.com

hullaball&#250 wrote:

It's pretty under-handed imo. I mean, bar-stools and table = ok, but glass is dangerous.

Ever being hit by a table or a bar stool?? That´s dangerous as well. Violence shouldn´t be tolerated - full stop. Tougher laws would probably help some scumbags behave in public.

nesf

The-Rigger wrote:

Also, if some person is randomly looming down on you aggressively, you have no idea what they are willing to do, are you supposed to wait to wait for them to glass you/knife you/pull a gun/strangle you/break your face/bounce your head off the ground causing lasting damange/snap your neck, and then attempt to retaliate with a like force?

Essentially, according to the law, yes. If a guy is looming over you and threatening you and you respond by breaking his arm or something then you're the one who's going to be in **** over it not him.

I agree about avoiding these situations at all costs, but you should be aware that just because someone hits you you are not "allowed" to do anything you want back in self defence.

davyjose

The-Rigger wrote:

Bottom line is, if someone attacks you out of nothing, all bets are off, and anything they get is coming to them.

I would have to agree with this - If you don't like the way I fight then don't fight with me.
OP, your mate is probably going to prison because some bully felt like giving him a smack - that's not right.
The problem is that it's the scumbags who want to make life miserable for us that get protected, and guys, like your friend, who panic, get thrown to the wolves.

patrickolee

I know, it sucks. He probably will go to jail, if he fights it and gets found guilty. He's a really effeminate guy too, won't stand a chance in jail.

Jesus Wept

patrickolee wrote:

I know, it sucks. He probably will go to jail, if he fights it and gets found guilty. He's a really effeminate guy too, won't stand a chance in jail.

What a horrible situation, it could happen to any of us. I hope it works out for him, as best as is possible at this stage.

davyjose

patrickolee wrote:

I know, it sucks. He probably will go to jail, if he fights it and gets found guilty. He's a really effeminate guy too, won't stand a chance in jail.

what are his options, legally? Tell him to do everything he can to stay out (i.e. plead guilty and ask for leniancy; spend lots of money on a defence), nothing will ruin your life in quite the same way a spell inside will.

patrickolee

At the moment his options are guilty, accept the lies that the other fella has spun, probably get a suspended sentence, pay 5000ish and have a permanent criminal record or not guilty and take a 50/50 chance, but judging from the thread so far, the barrister is right, whenever people hear 'glass' the situation doesn't matter too much. Strangely the money doesn't matter to him, his biggest reservation is that he won't be able to travel to america/uk and might even kicked out of here.... he's a foreign national.

johnnyskeleton

patrickolee wrote:

Just wondered, in peoples opinion... is it always wrong to use a glass in a bar fight? And if someone uses a glass are they always in the wrong?

Thanks

As a general rule of thumb, if someone is involved in a bar fight, irrespective of what the circumstances are, the gardai will usually see them as in the wrong. It would only be where it is clear that the person had no other option than to defend himslef, there are witnesses to that effect, and the force used was reasonable in the circumstances that being in a bar fight at all would be acceptable.

If two people are caught fighting, the gardai generally don't look to see who was in the wrong, and then become referees sending the bad guy to jail and letting the good guy walk away. Both of the people involved in a fight are committing an offence, they are both on the face of it in the wrong, and it is up to each/either of them to raise a defence of self-defence or otherwise.

As for the glass, I suppose some factors generally are:

1) was the glass in the person's hand when assaulted, or did they pick it up and lunge towards the other person?

2) did they use it in a defensive way or in a retaliatory way - i.e. did he try to minimise any injury caused or did he deliberately slash the other person's face - here, I think using the glass after it smashed would be unreasonable.

3) if he was drunk at the time, which is very common in bar fights, would he have used the glass if he were sober?

4) if the person who used the glass hadn't offered any resistance, how much of a beating would he have taken? Would he have been beaten to within an inch of his life, would he have been seriously injured, or would he have been a bit sore and bruised?

5) did the person with the glass do anything else earlier in the evening?

These are some of the questions that may be asked, and the answers to them might give an indication as to how reasonable the force used was.

5starpool

People who get into a fight because they are drunk should be banned from drinking ever again.

davyjose

patrickolee wrote:

At the moment his options are guilty, accept the lies that the other fella has spun, probably get a suspended sentence, pay 5000ish and have a permanent criminal record or not guilty and take a 50/50 chance, but judging from the thread so far, the barrister is right, whenever people hear 'glass' the situation doesn't matter too much. Strangely the money doesn't matter to him, his biggest reservation is that he won't be able to travel to america/uk and might even kicked out of here.... he's a foreign national.

Is that worse or better than spending (at least) ten months gettin rode up the ass in Mountjoy by junkies who may or may not be riddled with Aids and Hep C?? I've been to the US(just back) and the UK; trust me, they're not worth that!

jhegarty

de5p0i1er wrote:

If you want to fight someone then use your fists, if you can't win like that then you don't deserve to win. If someone pulls out a weapon then its open season on them.

So if someone breaks into your house tonight and beats the crap out of you thats ok becuase you didn't deserve to win ?

Degsy

Weapons are fine in a fight if you're trying to kill somebody.If you're not,then dont use weapons.Best advice is stay out of scraps alltogether,one punch can kill somebody if they hit the back of thier head off the ground and prison is full of would-be tough guys who couldnt handle thier drink.

[Deleted User]

If you can't fight properly, take your beating like a ****ing man.

Don't go pull glasses on people unless you are prepared to get one in the face next time.

Dave!

ronoc wrote:

If you can't fight properly, take your beating like a ****ing man.

Don't go pull glasses on people unless you are prepared to get one in the face next time.

Yeah yeah you're a real tough guy :rolleyes: As Degsy said, 1 punch can kill someone if they end up hitting their head off the ground. If some scumbag decides I'd be a good punching bag for tonight and I can't defend myself with my fists, then I'll bite their c*ck off and stab them with a machete before I let them beat me to a pulp. If you attack someone at random, then you deserve whatever you get. A glass in the head is the least you should expect.

nxbyveromdwjpg

patrickolee wrote:

Actually reason I ask, is a friend of mine, used a glass after he was set upon in a club...he was trapped at the back of a snug (ie nowwhere to run), panic'd and lashed out. He's 5ft4, weighs 8st and is not the kinda guy who goes looking for trouble. The other guy was 6ft something. Now he's up in court. Glass was already in his hand though, he didn't go off looking for it or anything. Split second thing, but not looking good.

Justified. Sorry but whoever it was earlier that said "Bottom line is, if someone attacks you out of nothing, all bets are off, and anything they get is coming to them." is dead right here..

Laslo

Legally, your mate is probably screwed but he should be able to stay out of jail if he goes the right course. It's unlikely that a jail sentence would be passed down to somebody without any priors and who is as obviously vulnerable as your friend. A few witnesses to confirm his good, gentle nature might help.

Morally - your mate has my full backing. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who instigates an unprovoked attack on an innocent person deserves whatever happens to them. I'm just sorry your friend didn't kill the guy. One less violent knacker off our streets would be a very good thing IMO.